doc benway

It's very different for me. It parallels the experience of thought and the extinguishing of thought during meditation.

Along these lines, I also "took back" the word faith after a very long time of viewing it with suspicion and disdain for all the reasons Spotless has elucidated. I once read a description of the differences between faith and belief and it really made an impression and that has lingered. It may have been Watts or it may have been Osho (gag - sorry), but it struck a chord and I will paraphrase: Belief is the blind acceptance of the explanations of others, Faith is letting go of all beliefs and accepting that whatever remains is truth.

I think this is very valuable. As we get more in touch with our selves and our values, we can become sensitized to the pain and suffering all around us. I often hear practitioners ask questions about how to deal with the pain and the sadness that can be overwhelming. I think this pith instruction cuts right to the core of that. We are practicing to eliminate all ignorance, to achieve the wisdom of emptiness and compassion. If we practice in that way, one-pointedly, our conduct will naturally and spontaneously manifest what is need in the world around us. Otherwise, our responses come from our own pain and confusion and tend to compound rather than alleviate suffering. PS - I should have read Thich Nhat Han's quote before replying. He said it much better than me!

Since we're on the topic of service, I'll mention that my teacher is currently hosting a 6 month free workshop called "Transforming Your World Through Service." it started in February but all the talks are recorded and it would be easy to catch up. This weekend is the 4th installment. There is a very useful forum and international "cyber-sangha" that is very supportive. Here's a link to more info: http://www.ligminchalearning.com/service

I'm sorry to hear that Old River, I've lost a friend or two to fundamentalism. It's sad. It's also infuriating for me because, at risk of sounding paranoid, I see very powerful forces in the media and government promoting such inflammation and obfuscation of reality.

I was lucky enough to attend a teaching on this prayer by a lama from Dolpo whose family goes back many centuries in connection with these teachings. It is well worth your time to study it although some of it may require side study in some fundamental Buddhist concepts. You are there in our experience, it's just the language and conceptual part that may be a bit foreign. My approach to my job has changed dramatically. My study and practice of Bön has changed me profoundly. I had reached a place where I was quite angry and bitter. I know better than to blame it on my job but no question that was a contributing factor. The system I work in is deeply dysfunctional. It is very challenging to navigate without compromising your values, your morals, your humanity, your personal life, at least it was for me. I was very conflicted and didn't know how to address it. Cultivating the proper view and committing to the practices changed me fundamentally and that, in turn, has had a ripple effect through my relationships, both personal and professional. I've been able to rekindle what brought me to this job in the first place - my joy in helping people, in putting a smile on their face, in easing their pain, and in getting to know them. Similarly, that applies to everyone in my life as much as I'm able. It doesn't always work as you can see right here on this very forum( ) but I'm in a much better place than I've been in the past. I've had no training in traditional Tibetan medicine so it's not a matter of merging that with what I do. It's more a matter of being more open to people, more genuinely interested in their well being. It's a matter of being more comfortable in my own skin and having tools to deal with the sometimes considerable negativity that we face (anger, disappointment, accusation, fear, pain, failure, death, and so on...). In seeing myself more clearly - my ignorance, my confusion, my dysfunction - I'm able to see all of that more clearly in others. In being able to let go of my ego and just be space, be there, be supportive, be open, I can neutralize so much of the emotional charge that can lead to conflict. In being a better listener and more caring, people already feel more confidence in their ability to recover. I can feel more clearly from others as well. I can feel the psycho-emotional energy that distorts and disrupts and magnifies things. I can see more readily where I can help with my Western methods or where they need help in other ways. I can even sometimes tell when they are open to hearing about how their suffering is not simply related to a physical disease and get a bit into alternative ways to help themselves through seeing more clearly into the nature of their problem. This last part is a work in progress, I tread carefully here because most people are not ready to go there and if they are not ready, I'm not the one to push them in that direction. In more Bön/Buddhist terms, I feel that I am attempting to bring the twofold wisdom of emptiness (absence of ego) and skillful means (compassion) to the job in order to benefit others [you'll recognize this as a line from the prayer], and the results have been astounding. I've spoken to my teacher about perhaps putting together some sort of workshop or program for others like me that may be interested in this sort of thing but nothing concrete yet...

Very nice Heath. Thanks for sharing.

Very important to choose our teachers with care!

I would agree this is a real phenomenon and CT's quote seems to hit the mark. Spiritual practices intentionally undermine the integrity of the ego to allow a deeper connection to what my teacher would call the inner refuge. If the connection to that inner source of support and confidence does not occur, the effects of the practices are hollow.

It's interesting to read this. One thing my teacher emphasizes at nearly every retreat is that our primary purpose for being together is simply to "be" "together" We get so wrapped up in thinking there is more to learn, more to practice, more to do, that we do not spend enough time simply be-ing when we are together, supporting each other, sharing our humanity and warmth, sharing the very joy of simply being. Little by little, I've come to shift my expectations and focus to align more with this mode of be-ing, especially when on retreat, but also in all other areas of life. The richness of interaction with each other when we focus on this subtle point is dramatically enhanced. So I will offer that perhaps that is something (companionship) that our teachers can give, provided that we have ears to listen for that subtle instruction. Certainly we can't be together very frequently and we can only expect so much, but it is the quality and meaning of that being together that matters. And for those who practice guru yoga, that can even transcend life and death. is a link to a nice talk he gave on the student-teacher relationship. It's long but some may find it useful.

Guru yoga is an amazing practice. At its most fundamental, the guru is the nature of mind itself. In a more general sense, the guru should be looked upon as a representation of this nature of mind, an embodiment of all enlightened qualities and characteristics. In the Bön Dzogchen tradition, guru yoga is practiced with an image of Tapihritsa, an important Bön master of the 8th century. In the Buddhist Dzogchen tradition, I believe that Padmasambhava takes that role. Tapihritsa is portrayed as naked, luminous, and surrounded by a rainbow. There is a marvelous prayer/poem known as the Invocation of Tapihritsa that you may find worth reading here. The entire article is a very detailed examination of the prayer which can be found in translation on page 24. The significance of Tapihritsa's nakedness represents the uncontrived, unelaborated, pure aspects of the natural state. He is luminous representing pure awareness/presence/knowing - rigpa. The rainbow represents the 5 elements which form the basis of all appearances. My teacher emphasizes that the guru should represent all of the teachers with whom we have had a personal and supportive connection, be they alive, dead, spirit, whatever. In particular, it should represent those teachers that have had a powerful and positive impact on our lives, especially if they have helped us recognize and connect with our inner truth.

My teacher is always using that analogy of the mother (the space that CT refers to) and the child (us). That feeing of safety and security in the child is what we feel when we take refuge in that space. That unconditional love and warmth in the mother for her child (all beings) is what we express as we connect with that space.

The Bön tradition, which deeply intermixed with Buddhism in Tibet, also traces its roots to Zhangzhung in Western Tibet and before that to an area that is probably Persia. Here's some infor from the Berzin archive: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/group.html_973371636.html Here's a summary from a very detailed book about the subject more focused on the Bön connection than Shakyamuni: http://www.boandbon.com/

Yes, arbitrary is a strong word and perhaps not them most accurate to capture my point succinctly. I am more pointing out our tendency to reduce the fullness and wholeness of being into limited and discrete conceptual chunks we can understand. In doing so I think we miss the point of cultivation and misconstrue holistic concepts like wuji and taiji. I couldn't agree more that yin and yang are verbs as much or more than nouns - I like to use the word process or aspect. Well said. Yes there most certainly are patterns of interaction and differentials we can observe that indicate something that is not random at work. The Daoists describe these observations quite well as does scientific observation. And yet, for me at least, this construct of mind, be it Daoist, Buddhist, Bön, or scientific, has some degree of inherent inaccuracy. Our attempts to reduce reality to concept are necessarily somewhat contrived, that is more what I was trying to express, I think. I'll also let it go now to allow the OP's original question to be addressed. Thanks all, for the valuable discussion.

Sounds interesting! I've had multiple people recommend it but never got around to it. Thanks for the summary. The practice I referred to first came to me from listening to a wonderful talk by Fr. Anthony Demello.

No disrespect taken. My reply is meant in the same vein, sincerely and respectfully. Yes, these words and ideas are useful, for sure, when it comes to thinking and conceptualizing reality. We are thinking, conceptualizing beings and that will not change. A central tenet of Daoism, however, is that reality transcends and precedes conceptualization. That is the first chapter of the DDJ. Neidan is independent of theory - at least in the way I was taught and the way my teacher received the teachings and his and his... as far as I know. The inner work is experiential and stands alone. When I asked him what books I should read he told me not to waste my time reading. Much like a taijiquan master has no need of reading to master pushing hands. The Daoist hermits living in mountains and caves did not have large libraries... The correct view can and will arise spontaneously, as the result of skillful practice, with or without theoretical consideration. In fact, this is precisely why (I believe) that my teacher taught the way he did. If one arrives at the view through skillful practice, there is no doubt, no mistake, no possibility of a misunderstanding. You feel the truth in your bones and see it in the sky and earth. The view arises from direct realization of those processes you describe in your post and can then be reduced to conceptual designation. If one bases the view on conceptualization and theory, one is much more likely to go astray. Particularly given that most of us in the West base our theoretical understanding on a very limited number of works in translation. Those translations are often ambiguous, inaccurate, superficial, or unsophisticated. The Daoists wrote in allegory and metaphor. They did not intend their writings to be easily understood without direct instruction. The intellect can be very misleading, the Daoists understood this and did not base their cultivation methods on conceptualization as a rule. The theory that you are describing, in fact, arose as a consequence of the direct realization of the masters through practice. This is exactly where it comes from, not from the thinking mind. It is far better to have this direct realization for ourselves than to create a conceptual representation of it, in my opinion. For those of us who may be fortunate enough to receive direct teachings on these practices from a credible source, I say PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! I maintain my earlier position that yin and yang are arbitrary and relative designations. They are totally dependent on perspective and relationship. They are relative insofar as they are interdependent. The concept of yin and yang is not far removed from that of dependent origination. Yin and yang define each other, they always coexist in process, they are meaningless if considered independently. They are arbitrary insofar as they are dependent on perspective. The quality of increasing from one perspective is necessarily a decreasing from a different perspective and so forth. One can flip the labels or look at the process standing on one's head and the only thing that changes is the appearance. The truth is unchanged by our change in perception or designation. "Without understanding yin and yang" ALL of this is possible, in my opinion and experience. The understanding can come before or it can come after... Different vehicles for different practitioners and all that. The OP was asking how the tradition I've trained in handles the theoretical considerations of yin qi and yang qi in terms of our practices and I answered that as accurately as possible. It may seem misguided to you currently but I suspect you'd feel differently if you'd studied with my teacher and fellow students. The Daoist cultivation methods are indeed quite powerful (although I'm not sure I would put them above the Bönpo methods I've been exposed to) and I suspect one reason they are so powerful is that they are not dependent on or limited by theory and conceptualization, much like tantric and dzogchen practices.

I have to tell you that I've never seen the show - should I check it out?

Yin and yang are arbitrary and relative designations created by thought - labels. My Daoist teacher always emphasized practice over study. He would say that any time spent thinking is time better spent practicing. We rarely talked about the conceptual aspects of the energies we worked with so I've never really spent much time thinking of it in those terms.

I share Liminal's feeling that people deserve our respect and support, especially when they are struggling. Our opinion of their struggles and choices is much less important than our willingness to be open, supportive, and caring, IMO. The data from the early work on gender reassignment surgery was that the recipients saw little or no improvement in their long-term psychological health. I believe that was the primary reason why the major institutions doing the surgery (Hopkins and Syracuse come to mind) discontinued the programs. I'm not as familiar with more recent data and look forward to exploring it a bit - thanks for those links CT. I think the idea of trying to discourage surgery (and pharmaceutical treatment) and address the issues with other methods comes from a place of compassion and caution. Surgery is fairly high risk, the results are mixed, and I suspect there are a significant number of people who could find a way forward without such an extreme approach. Those who would perform the surgery can be somewhat predatory, as John Money was when he was at Hopkins. He had a God complex and caused a lot of harm by intimidating parents to follow his recommendations in dealing with hermaphrodite children, for example. There is a brilliant book about that particular aspect of the issue called Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides. The ending is a bit odd but it's otherwise wonderful. The other aspect of this question is simply the idea that I am not comfortable in my skin, whether that is gender related or not, as was mentioned earlier. A particularly extreme example which I think is probably somehow related is Body Integrity Identity Disorder in which folks request elective amputation of healthy body parts. There is another superb (and very unusual novel) that touches on that issue from a very different angle called Geek Love by Katherine Dunn. One of the most bizarre and memorable novels I've read.

In a similar vein, I think it is extremely valuable to look at myself nakedly, as if through the eyes of those who would be most critical of me. When I can see and acknowledge my deepest flaws, no one can ever insult me. They are either telling me the truth that I've already accepted or they are lying - I'm fine either way. I do not mean to say that we accept our faults without intention to grow, but rather we see them for what they are, honestly, and then do what we will with that.

I don't mean to speak for CT but I welcome any and all sincere commentary about these wonderful teachings, even questions and criticism. I think that's how we benefit the most - by questioning, challenging, trying to digest. While I agree that it's nice to keep this thread from getting derailed by argument or distractions, that really has not been a problem here.

Is it possible that while your heart told you to get a movie, it was your brain that made the selection?

Bindi - I think that's an astute observation and I share it. Here's how I would try to explain it - The one who tries and exerts effort is the one who keeps us asleep. That very effort is the obstacle as it reinforces the illusion of the one who is exerting effort. When we are able to let go of that effort we can simply rest in a state which is uncontrived (thank you Rigdzin Trinley for that word). That state is the most conducive to awakening. My teacher says it very succinctly - "effort is the exit"

The Bön and Tibetan Buddhists certainly cultivate ming. There are multiple examples - tummo, tsa lung trul khor, 9 Breathings, and multiple tantric methods. These methods seem to predate Buddhism in Tibet. Perhaps they were adopted by the Buddhists from the Bön in Tibet. That may explain why they are not seen elsewhere in Buddhist practice (if indeed that's the case).

I have some experience with both Daoist methods (not specifically Damo Mitchell, I'm not sure what lineage his teachings come from) and mindfulness. I find them to be completely complimentary. Daoist neigong practices, by and large, are methods of concentration. One use the attention or intention to observe and/or guide energetic awareness within and through the body and beyond. Mindfulness practices are wonderful ways to cultivate concentration and attention and will, therefore, augment and compliment anything that relies on concentration and attention. Mindfulness allows us to prolong the duration and stability of attention and concentration. If one finds mindfulness to be passive, they have probably been taught incorrectly (at least in the early stages). To be mindful is to remain fully engaged and connected and that's a very active (and challenging) process in the beginning. I will say that at advanced levels, one is able to gradually relax the degree of effort without losing the connection. At that point perhaps the word passive could be used but if the connection is lost, the mindfulness is lost. I think the word effortless would be more accurate than passive, perhaps.