doc benway

I like that...

A very important point for sure, emptiness and appearance are not separate. And yet we are very familiar with appearance and very unfamiliar with emptiness so we tend to need to use appearance as a door to the emptiness, just as the sutric approach uses thought to transcend thought. Sitting on the cushion "in the certainty that what is happening right now is empty" we need to be careful that this certainty is not merely a formation of thought. Even that certainty is empty, no? I like to talk sometimes but I'm not that skillful with words and concepts and sometimes they trip me up...

When I received transmission for dream practices, I had a very powerful vision (a rare event for me). It was a bit complex but at one point I felt and saw myself being outfitted in armor and with a weapon as a dream warrior. There is no greater battle than that with our ignorance.

Thank you - similarly, as I mentioned elsewhere, in working with emptiness on the cushion using Dzogchen methods, we still need to work with appearance to approach a (non) experience of space. The mind does not know how to approach space in the absence of form. It's interesting to see the parallels between the classroom and the cushion. I think that is one of the points Mipham eventually makes but that's getting ahead. Looking forward to more of this discussion...

I can't remember the thread where we recently mentioned Tarkovsky and his films. I just came across this link and thought I'd post it here for anyone interested in great cinema. ]http://www.openculture.com/2010/07/tarkovksy.html

death's locomotion twitches and spins and vomits enlightening brew

This is beautiful CT, thanks... In one of my practices, we cultivate the experience of spaciousness of the mind. I've been working with that a lot lately. It is very difficult for the mind to apprehend space so it can be useful to begin by focusing on the appearance that is "occupying" the space. When we turn that inward towards what we feel inside, feeling that which is occupying the space is easy (pain, ideas, thoughts, feelings), and then gradually feeling the space within that perception of 'space occupation' is interesting. Not sure if these words are of any value whatsoever but its something I've been working with and was highlighted by the wonderful quote from Hui Neng.

Thank you RT - can you clarify what is meant by "so appearance on one hand and emptiness on the other are both merely designated"? Do you mean that they are simply labeled? Or does "designated" have a more specific connotation here?

I agree with Chang on all accounts. Your time is much better invested with a teacher than with Dr. Yang's books. Daoist arts are experiential. The theory and intellectual description offers little support or value in the absence of skillful practice.

Good question - I think that varies from individual to individual. In meditation, the ultimate objective is to cut ignorance at its root which obviates the need for dealing with all the little branches and leaves. Simply trimming the leaves and branches is futile. For these reasons, and others, I would not advocate meditation for the treatment of mental illness in most cases, although I do think it can be an effective adjunct under skillful guidance, especially mindfulness type practices. They've become quite popular in psychotherapy but mostly for neuroses, I think. One of my favorite gurus is Anthony Demello, a Jesuit priest and psychologist from India. He sometimes discussed the quandary he found himself in as he tried to decide whether to act as a spiritual guide vs therapist for people. He felt that the therapist in him would often want to ease the pain whereas the guru saw the value in allowing or even accentuating the pain to foster a breakthrough.

My Daoist meditation teacher used to caution his students about this very topic. My Bön teacher does as well. I'll add that I don't practice simple mindfulness alone, it is certainly a part of my practice but not the sole focus. I see the OP is referring specifically to mindfulness. In my own experience, there is no question that suppressed and repressed psychological and emotional baggage have been un-roofed as my meditation practice has progressed. I believe it to be a natural and necessary part of the process of opening and releasing blockages of all types. The more quiet and tranquil we become, the more likely we will encounter painful memories and feelings and traces of everything we have encountered in our lives linger in us, often in subtle ways. And our lives are ever in motion so the subtle winds within periodically stir them. The more traumatic memories and feelings are buried deeper and can fester there for many years, so that if (when) they are uncovered they can be every bit as traumatic, or worse, than when they were buried. For people who have a tendency towards mental illness or instability, there is a real risk of this sort of experience leading to acute psychosis. I think it's relatively rare but a very good reason to practice with a teacher or at least be aware of the potential for painful memories to arise and need to be addressed with appropriate support. So my Daoist teacher used to say that meditation allows us to encounter and clear all of this baggage when we are young, healthy, and ready to face all of this stuff with clear intent and the support of our master. Alternatively, in his view, we will end up facing these things towards the end of our lives when we are sick, frail, unprepared, and unsupported. His opinion is that we will all face these things sooner or later, at the time of our death if not before. He attributes the extremely high rate of depression and suicide in the elderly at least in part to this process. If you look at it from the perspective of reincarnation, for those who like to think about such things, these are the very things that will guide our rebirth in the bardo after death and the Buddhist methods of sutric and tantric practice work with these in an effort to liberate us from that burden.

Eight Branches Healing doesn't seem to offer any of the above - it seems more a Chinese medicine practitioner that teaches some yoga and mindfulness meditation, not Daoist practices. The Rochester Tai Chi Chuan Center was started by an excellent martial artist, Kai Sung, a student of the legendary Chen Pan Ling. I know their previous director well and am an acquaintance of a current instructor. They teach Chen Pan Ling's form which is a great form for both health and martial application (depending, of course, on how it's taught). They teach some other taijiquan forms as well but it doesn't look like much emphasis on qigong or meditation. Check out some of their videos on youtube. Lisa O'Shea (Qigong Rochester) teaches what appears to be a more comprehensive program of taijiquan, qigong, and meditation. It looks like she teaches shiba luohangong which is a wonderful qigong set. I would study with her for that alone. She is certified by Yang Jwing Ming who is well respected in the US. Check out her Facebook page for some videos. My suggestion is to go check out both places - talk to a few students, watch a class or two. See what feels right for you.

What are you looking for? Meditation? Qigong? Martial arts?

the ways to the sea numerous and inviting call the waters back

I returned home from a week of silence and meditation about 2 years ago and asked my wife if she'd consider a vegetarian lifestyle. She immediately said yes and that was that. I will occasionally eat meat, she never does. If my wife cooks it when our children visit, I will generally partake out of respect for the life that was sacrificed. If I feel a need for it, I will eat it - maybe once or twice a year. I do my best to make sure it comes from a source where the animal has been humanely treated. I'm unable to separate a discussion of the benefits of this from my feelings about animal rights as the two are inextricably related for me. My choice not to eat animals supports and arose from my choice to live a life of awareness, caring, and warmth to other living things. My spiritual and energetic life are not separate from this. My practice has continued to deepen and stabilize in all aspects - spiritual, energetic, physical, emotional - since making this change. Whether that is a consequence of not eating animals or whether sparing the lives of animals is a consequence of the natural development of my practice is impossible to say and irrelevant for me. For me the two have occurred hand in hand and I think that, in general, as our spiritual lives awaken, our awareness awakes. As that happens we will see changes in our lives, particularly where they intersect the lives of other beings.

It's interesting to watch this process. It is suggested that we listen to "our hearts, our inner nature." So the brain responds to this by asking, what is this inner nature? Is it intuition, is it gut instinct, is it reptilian brain? The mind is always looking for something it already knows to substitute, to answer the question - and it's always offering another label, always offering something that it already knows. It can never offer anything new because it doesn't contain the new. If one is interested in something new, like inner nature, then the way to find out what that is, is to actually listen - not to simply fill that space with ideas and words. Listening requires less distraction which is why most people do this listening in solitude, in a quiet place, and in the absence of other activity. That listening is meditation.

Yes - very helpful and clear for me. thanks

vapid

today's overcast. Where might I find my shadow when Sol is hiding?

Well done Nick

PS - I believe in fact, that they do. I think Mipham may even address those points. I think it's useful to interject into the discussion

Great and clear post, RT! One question - at the risk of sounding heretical, do the scholars ever question the assertions that I highlighted above? It seems that certain conclusive proofs often depend on these "facts."

I definitely practice more than I read - it was my karma, I guess, to find teachers who emphasized practice over study in both Daoist and Buddhist practices. For me, I think this is a good thing because I tend towards the intellectual frame. That said I think both are extremely valuable, especially in Buddhism. The important thing is that you've found something that's working for you and that's great!

I like your ramblings - they're well informed and I often learn something from them. And they help to kill the time while waiting for more from RT! PS - for anyone interested in Mipham's writings, Anyen Rinpoche's book Journey to Certainty is brilliant. Mipham's writings are very tough for me to digest alone but Anyen's book makes his points quite clear. Now having RT to work through them with us is an absolute delight!

I think we need to be careful here in equating "empty of self" (rangtong) and "no essence" - is that slipping toward nihilism? Well, here is another question, does thought arise in the absence of a thinker? We've been talking quite a bit about thought but the thinker is an important part of the equation, I think. edit - I can see that I've really just paraphrased CT's question above and his is stated better..