doc benway

I'll add the spin that, for many, this is judged most by our self but best by others. There is no one who is incapable of saying "I" and yet the experience of I does not require that one accepts that I as the central motivating factor of life. Love exists independent of the thought that labels itself "I" in my experience.

That is a very nice summary of what meditation is not. It puts me in mind of the via negativa of Aquinas.

That and daytime naps are generally the best time for lucidity.

I preferred the 1972 version.

Thanks for clarifying

But can you dog it?

I agree with your first sentence but not the second. An orange is like a banana - they both taste good, they're both fruit, they're both light in color and have a firm, inedible skin that must be peeled. Both have seeds and pith. Both grow from the ground on trees which have rough, brown bark and green leaves. Certainly there are differences but there are many similarities and knowing those similarities is helpful and instructive like with waking and dreaming.

Infants dream, animals dream, and most of my dreams are very pleasant. I think our problems can express in dream as can our pleasures and successes. The activity of thought is not restricted by the sleep cycle. I do agree that many of us have so much repressed and suppressed stress and anxiety that it seems as if dreaming is mostly related to problems.

FWIW, I'll offer a few words. This is a wrong understanding of karma. It is not a matter of holding on to the past or letting it go. Each action and event is related to every other action and event in an unimaginably complex array of interaction / cause and effect that stretches back interminably and stretches forward as time marches along. Every person and thing is what, where, and how it is as a result of this incomprehensible web of relationship. Your karma has brought you to a place such that you do not see truth in the dharma, mine is to see it. Whether that's good or bad is an overlay of human judgement. It is possible that you are so fixed in a single belief system that it will never change, it's unlikely but possible. Every one of us sees the world through our unique perspective created by this karmic web. This perspective defines reality for us. You may have the perspective that your view of reality is exactly and perfectly correct and every other human is incorrect. Many of us feel that way. Who knows? Maybe it's true. More likely there will (or already has) come a time when you see things a bit differently. It can be a dramatic or very subtle change in perspective but to the extent it changes our world view, it changes our reality. This is precisely why life is like a dream. Our perspective defines our reality. That perspective changes and it is as if we awakened from a dream. We look back at the way things used to seem and wonder how we could have felt or acted that way. It is as unreal (or real, depending on your perspective) as last night's dream. Because of the inter-related (karmic) nature of our existence, many things are seen in a common way. This is the foundation for us agreeing on what is "real." To the extent that others see things in a different way, their reality is different. The corollary to this is that words generally cannot change someone's perspective. It is frustrating for someone what has "seen the light" to try to help others see it in their way unsuccessfully. It is equally frustrating to have someone trying to change your perspective when you "know" they're wrong. It is only when something shifts inside us that we are open to a new perspective. Why and how that happens is a great mystery, at least to me. Call it karma, call it a blessing, call it an accident. So while we can certainly each share our unique perspective, it is rarely productive to take things personally and attack each other because our views, and methods of presenting them, conflict. Better to let it go and simply accept it as it is... Sorry for the rant... Peace

E MA HO! Words just don't capture it but when you see what you are, all the true words that others have been written to describe it make perfect sense. Are you feeling that dwai? From your perspective others are now transparent because there is no 'other.' I sense it is something that will put everything else into context for you and inform your perspective for the rest of your days. Namaste brother _/\_

It makes me feel great! Invigorated, anxious to commit to deeper and more consistent practice, ready to focus more on the important things like family and relationships and less interested in wasting time with materialism and similar foolishness. It gives a deep feeling of gratitude and appreciation for this life. PS - I avoid hospitals too!

That's a beautiful post Bindi. My view is perhaps a bit different at this moment and I'll share, not to disagree, but to collaborate. I currently feel that our dream life is the ongoing mental process that is present for us during the day and night. In dreams this process certainly has a different feel and yet it is not free of the illusions and misconceptions of the ego-mind. As our waking ego-mind becomes less deluded, so do our dreams. Just as dream is directly connected to 'the ocean' as you put it, so is our waking mind. The primary difference is that conscious self-awareness is active will awake and asleep when we dream, unless of course we dream lucidly. This can be a distraction in the waking dream but when used correctly is very valuable in sleeping dream. If you don't already do it, I'd highly recommend trying some lucid dreaming work as it puts a very different perspective on things, at least it did for me. Unfortunately, many of the more modern methods of lucid dreaming focus too much on the entertainment and personal gain value of dreams as opposed to the more traditional approach which focuses on a more spiritual utility in the practice.

There is a beautiful Bönpo prayer of impermanence. It's rather long and each stanza speaks of an aspect of our attachment to the illusion of permanence in this life. The refrain sings: Bless me that the realization of impermanence will arise in my mindstream. The most powerful impermanence practice for me is to contemplate my death. I start a few months out and imagine receiving news of a terminal illness. I walk through the progression of my gradual deterioration and its effect on my loved ones and acquaintances. On the day of death I visualize my dissolution into elemental processes. At the end I rest in that clear and open space and then come back to the realization that I am alive. That transition back to life is extremely powerful and helps to give motivation and guidance to my actions. Working in the healthcare field, I am constantly reminded of the fragility of life, of the ever present spectre of injury and death. It is very sobering. I would highly recommend anyone practicing impermanence to visit places like nursing homes, hospitals, and so forth, and volunteer for a day just talking to the people and being in their presence.

Tapihritsa - http://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=496 Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud

When we see reality as (or like) a dream at a deep level, we lessen our attachment to it. We no longer are as easily buffeted by the highs and lows. There is somewhat of a detached acceptance, not in a cold and negative way but more in the sense that we are OK with circumstances as they are and they have less power over us. Another consequence is that we feel more free, more able to change things in our lives we want to change. In dream, we can do anything - fly, change our size, duplicate ourselves, change into another animate creature or inanimate substance. When we see reality as a dream, we feel less restricted by our self-imposed restrictions and are able to make changes in our habitual patterns we would not have thought possible. This idea is at the heart of dream yoga practices. Once we develop the ability to dream lucidly, the truth behind the OP's statement becomes more clear and the nature of awareness-dream-reality takes on a different feel.

I think in part it depends also on how you feel about yourself.

I once went through a process that I found very helpful. I spent some time contemplating my core values - the values that I hold most dear and that I respect the most both in myself and others. I then committed to keeping these values in mind whenever making important (or even trivial) decisions or taking action in my life. This was done in the context of doing a lot of mindfulness and insight work, not in a vacuum. The mindfulness and insight work can sometimes strip us of a lot of who we think we are and can leave a bit of a void. This void is then filled a with value-based system such that the actions we take and decisions we make are consistent with our core values. I found it extremely helpful in giving me some guidance and direction in my life so I would offer those thoughts to you. Fare well in your travels!

Yes, it makes a lot of sense. I'm also working on ngöndro along with other practices. I can relate to your experience and find your discussion of a realignment of values and energetics spot on.

Looking forward to that discussion.

gets votes. Who's counting?.. on their fingers and their toes, must be GOP!

I'll also share an example of how the preliminaries can have a powerful impact. I work as a doctor and the healthcare system in the US has really changed during my career. It has created a very contentious atmosphere between doctors and patients, due to the insurance companies calling the shots regarding healthcare but the doctor is always the one that gets the brunt of the negativity from the frustrated patient. Then there is the fact that the cost of doing business is always climbing and the reimbursements are always falling. This leads us to try and find other ways of making money, most of which take us into area where we are not really providing patient care but being businessmen. I won't get too deeply into it but suffice it to say that the system leads to most doctors I know becoming extremely frustrated and bitter. Some respond by quitting. Some respond by becoming increasingly distant from the patient and dehumanizing the patient. This type of person can become predatory, making decisions based on money rather than what's good for the patient. Some get more into research and that's a whole other can of worms. Others, like myself, stick with it but become angry and frustrated and manifest this through illness, failed relationships, and dissatisfaction. Several years ago I was in a very negative place with this. I began working with the preliminaries and while reading the words - it's good to have a livelihood where we are helping people, the words just weren't having an effect. While I knew I was helping on one level, I also could see that I was simultaneously doing some harm on other levels. I had a meeting with my current teacher and we talked about it for a very short time. At one point he looked me in the eye, he was also holding my hand at the time, and he said something like: you are a doctor, you have the opportunity to devote your life to helping people, you are so fortunate, you have something that very few people have... And over the next few days these words began to really work on me. And not just the words, the warmth and genuine concern that I felt in our physical contact and in his actions. And the warmth grew in me and a renewed sense of gratitude and devotion took root. It really took me back to when I first started working in the field. It was like starting all over again. The frustrations are still there. And I can be OK with them. The opportunities seem far more important and I get so much out of just connecting with people with genuine warmth and concern, just as my teacher did with me. It is not just about the words and the concepts. Union with the guru is about tapping into that source that the guru has tapped into where the real concern for others comes from. This is so much of the importance of the teacher for me - someone who gives us a clue as to how to behave, not so much what to think. So now I really try to take advantage of the opportunities my job provides, knowing that I can't help everyone, knowing that sometimes I make mistakes, and it's just so much easier and so much more rewarding. And that is reflected in my relationships and so much more throughout other aspects of my life. I think we can talk about this sort of experience in every one of the examples in the teachings. And we can also talk about how we have good and bad times, we fall back into ignorance at times, and then our practice of mindfulness allows us to keep coming back to the light, more and more frequently and consistently. Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling a bit and I'll take a break here... My love and support go out to all of you reading this. You all inspire me to try and do better, thank you for that!

I have a bit more time and would be happy to share some personal perspectives. Living in the West, many of the concepts and particulars related to these practices are very foreign and strange. The teachings often point to extremes and this can also have the effect of distancing us as individual practitioners from the inner meaning. As a householder, I recognize a need to address my suffering and that of my loved ones, and see the enormous potential in embracing these teachings. And yet, as pointed to earlier about the extremes, when I face the challenges and contemplate the extreme measures we are asked to adopt to be successful, it can be daunting and discouraging. I am very fortunate to have a teacher who lives in the West and has come to know and understand the limitations, opportunities, and needs of practitioners like myself. One of the primary messages I get from his approach is that to expect these teachings to touch and enrich our lives they must make sense to us. They must be realistically within our grasp. It is simply not realistic at this point in my life to abandon my family and career and go on a 2 year retreat or lead a monastic life. While that clearly is at odds with a superficial reading of the intent of the teachings, it's important to remember that the teachings come from a place of bodhicitta - the authors sincerely want to help all of us to liberate ourselves from ignorance. Hoping that we will achieve complete liberation in this lifetime, they are intelligent enough to know that the vast majority of us will not be successful and yet every one of us can benefit enormously by doing what we can, when and how we can with these methods. All this is to say that for me the teachings can be very off-putting on the surface. When I feel like I cannot put in the degree of time and focus asked for, I can choose to get discouraged and quite, or I can choose to recognize that it is good for me to do what I can and that is enough - it is my karma. When I begin to directly experience the benefits of the the teachings, even in limited amounts, based on what I can put in to the practice, it becomes easier and easier to commit more and more deeply - it is a positive feedback loop. Once the benefits of these practices manifest in my life I begin to see the true meaning behind this first most excellent thought. Having been born human, having the capacity to understand the teachings, having access to the teachings and the support of a lineage master, seeing the benefits it can bring to myself, my family and friends, my patients - as I contemplate that in the context of actually feeling the benefits, and feeling the love and compassion behind it all, it literally makes my heart sing and brings a tear to my eye. This depth of feeling may come easily for some but took a long time for me to discover. Once we tap in to this reservoir of support, the strength and devotion to continue to practice grows and grows. This further reinforces the gratitude to be where I am and have the opportunities I have and it goes round and round. While I may never achieve certain lofty goals due to my current circumstances, the benefits of being connected with these teachings is undeniable and very valuable. And the thought that I can't reach any particular goal is just a thought. And the goal itself is just a thought. We are chock full of thoughts of all types. The majority are rooted in the three poisons of fear, hope, and ignorance. Here we are being presented with a thought (many actually) that have proven over time and through the trial and error of many masters to take us in a more productive direction. These thoughts can take us closer to wisdom, closer to compassion, closer to a better life for ourselves and those around us. Thought is a bit like breathing. There are voluntary and involuntary components. I can choose a thought and focus on it but the vast majority of thoughts just arise. Just like controlling our breathing can be very healthy in meditation, qigong, exercise, whatever... Controlling our thoughts is similarly healthy. Many of us want to jump right to the finish line and practice tantra and dzogchen, and some have that capability, but most of wrestle with a very unruly mind and life and these foundational practices are invaluable. My approach to the 8 freedoms is to not look at them as abstractions (hell, hungry ghosts, and so forth) but to see them as reality. How fortunate am I to not be a murderer, a rapist, a pedophile? How lucky to not be totally obsessed with possessions? I see people like this all around us. These conditions would make it impossible for me to focus on dharma and improving myself. On the other hand, I do deal with anger and sometimes don't control it well. I do deal with desire and can be obsessed with the material world. And so I see these things in myself and I know that the teachings will give me tools to work on them. These realms are not elsewhere (well, maybe they are but I don't currently see them in that way), they are right here and now. I can see them with my eyes. That sort of connection brings the teachings to life for me. It allows me to make sense of them and work with them directly. I won't get in to the specifics because I think RT and Apech have done a much better job at that than I can. I see that RT has posted again while I've been writing and I look forward to see what that covers. This is a wonderful thread, thanks RT!

RT - you can cut up quotes by putting your cursor where you want it and hitting return a few times. Sometimes I then have to bring the cursor up a few spaces and hit return again - a little trial and error...

One of the things I find that I cultivate with contemplation of the rarity and preciousness of human existence is gratitude. Gratitude can transform our lives. It can provide some of the fuel needed to keep us going in trying times. It can change a life of durdgery (is that a word?) into one of enjoyment and appreciation. When we see how much people suffer and how fortunate we are with where we are in our lives, it is powerful motivation to do something valuable with our time rather than constantly satisfy desire and fear.

I have very little time right now and I haven't read the last post yet but I'll add a brief personal perspective. I don't spend much time looking at these classes of beings from a literal approach. I look at how each of these "realms" and "beings" is an aspect of myself that creates difficulties in my life and how the practices allow me to identify, work with, and transcend each of these limitations. Looking forward to reading more and hopefully I'll have something of value to offer. Thanks for being part of this community RT!