doc benway

It's really not about belief, it's about experience. Some have a direct insight into oneness (which can also be looked at as emptiness). Some only have intellectual knowledge of it. If one has the experience, there is a taste of absolute truth to it. It is not a matter of debate, although interpretations may vary. On the other hand, in the absence of the direct taste, the idea and concept are on very shaky ground and may easily be refuted and dismissed. I'm not saying it's true or false, just that there is a difference between the taste of the food and the description of the menu.

I have not watched the official announcement. I still stand by my earlier post about media (this includes PR folks on laboratory payrolls) selling more than scientific information. It's the way things are - experimentation requires funding, funding benefits from dogma and exaggeration, as do readership and ratings (and politics). That part of the game I don't like either, but I don't let it get under my skin too much because I don't see it changing anytime soon. I'm not sure your conclusion "this is not good scientific method" is justified based on the information you've provided. The problem with much of modern physics is that we are looking at things at either ridiculously small or large scales so that the methods and results must be very carefully calibrated, analyzed, and interpreted. While you certainly may have the education and understanding of the method, equipment, raw data, data analysis, and interpretation necessary to pass such judgement on this particular experiment, I won't take your word for whether this is good science or not any more than you accept theirs.

MooNiNite said: MAJOR Discovery: Scientists announce finding Gravitational Waves confirming Einstein's theory It may be just that, and then again it may not be. There are all kinds of dogmatic headlines and statements in the newspaper. In general, I think those statements are more a reflection of media and political interests and efforts to generate profit and power by those interests. In my experience the folks actually doing the work tend to be enthusiastic and passionate while maintaining a healthy caution about the significance and longetivity of their findings. Scientists generally understand the tenuous and fragile nature of "discoveries" and their significance, much more so than lay folks and the opportunists (media, administrators, politicians, etc...). PS - I fully agree with your comment about correlation not necessarily implying causation - very important, although I'm not sure it applies in this specific case

No need to get so incensed and sarcastic. No one is asking you, or any of us, to accept anything as fact or believe anything. Scientists speak in theories and evidence to support those theories. As new evidence comes to light, theories are adjusted to account for it. Eventually, a big picture may arise which accommodates all of the evidence. I do think people who work hard should be acknowledged for their work, but that doesn't mean we need to interpret it in any particular way. Time will tell what it really means and that will change as we continue to progress. I think the significance has to do with the axioms upon which relativistic theory is built and the fixed speed of light but I really haven't looked at it closely yet. This finding was predicted long before we had the capability to measure the effect. It may turn out to support the postulate of gravitational waves and, then again, more study may prove it to be just a glitch. Either way, it's good to see smart people continuing to try and understand things through the scientific method, a very powerful tool for sure. Just like it's good to see sensitive people continuing to try and understand themselves through the spiritual methods, also very powerful. In my world, there is room for both.

split

Well said, silent thunder.

I am very happy to see money, time, and effort being invested in physics research. To me it is not at all a waste. There are so very many benefits, some tangible, some less so... There is little that I find more exciting and exotic than breakthroughs in physics, especially when it challenges existing ideas and leads us in new, unexpected directions. It's equally compelling to see the consistency of views emerge as cutting edge physics and ancient spiritual traditions converge. Like liminal_luke, I was a bit of a science addict as a kid - physics and anatomy mostly. I'll never forget how excited I was to read an article in Scientific American about Bell's Theorem and Asimov's book, The Human Brain.

Sorry to hear she passed at such a young age. She was a nice voice here. She will be missed. Thank you for sharing that obituary.

Else

Mad Dog

It's nice if we can get to the point where we can look at those empty boats we bump into as our teachers and guides, rather than obstacles and enemies. I love how Pema puts it - "rest in that little gap." It's so difficult to find that space when someone pulls out in front of us causing us to slam on our brakes to avoid a collision. It happened to me this morning. I found the space, but only after hitting the horn and yelling, what the fuck!?

I'm also a concrete thinker and adding the electronic medium to the mix creates the perfect storm for me...

Rijksmuseum

In my view, karma transcends and is independent of faith or assistance. That very attempt to intervene will simply add to the cycle of action and consequence. Karma has no resolution, it is ongoing. It is simply human judgement which perceives injustice and desires resolution. I think when you ask the question "do you have faith in karma or does it need help in getting its job done?" what you are really asking is "do you believe that somehow there is a law or entity that leads to things working out to meet your expectations and, if not, do you tend to take matters into your own hands?" That is not karma, that is desire and aversion; said in another way, it is ignorance. No offense intended. This is perhaps the most common misinterpretation of karma and amounts to a projection of human values and expectations onto observed, unbiased action and consequences. Karma is more in line with the Daoist principle discussed in a recent thread regarding the Dao and sage treating all beings as straw dogs.

Tigle

I also felt a visceral impact when first reading this quote. "... but as soon as soon as the consciousness enters the mixed cell, that cell now belongs to the consciousness." I can't even yet put into words why but the utter truth of this statement reverberates in me. Our body, our world, our thoughts... everything we identify with is so clearly not "ours" for there is nothing we can find that can be said to be "me." And yet how can one really say that anything is not me? Just as I am not this and that, here I am in communion with the experience of everything I encounter so how could "I" be anything else? Words fail me and yet that fundamental paradox of being and not being seems to be captured in this elegant passage.

"During conception, even the physical substance on which the self is conventionally based - the egg and sperm - belong to someone else, the parents; still you can say that it belongs to the self also. The body comes from someone else, but as soon as the consciousness enters, it's that new person's body, embryo, fetus, or whatever you want to call it, even though prior to that it wasn't. So the physical constituents of the embryo come from two different people; but as soon as the consciousness enters the mixed cell, that cell now belongs to the consciousness." - His Holiness the Dalai Lama

But the Pastafarians play better music in temple...

I don't mean to answer for Kar3n, she may have a different response but I'd like to offer a response to this. First, if you haven't received empowerment or preparation, you probably would be better off not using the iconography of that particular lineage or tradition. While you can certainly use any image you want, the benefits of understanding the specific details of the visualization and practice will simply not be there. You may as well visualize the Flying Spaghetti Monster. When you approach these "beings" as a part of yourself, there is nothing else they can be other than an aspect of yourself. To look at them as wanting something in return is not to see them from a non-dual perspective. When doing something for oneself, who is there to want something in return? In your example, Jesus and Satan are projections or constructs which represent different aspects of oneself. There is no need to distinguish them. You look beyond the representation, beyond the image or archetype, and actually look directly at yourself. Working with these "beings" is a way of working with and on oneself. They are a tool or a method, not something other than ourselves. Reifying them through attribution (what do they want, what if they're angry, what if they're tricking me?), is a distraction from the real work. Sure, we can trick ourselves and fool ourselves and make a mess of things internally but when working with these "beings" from a non-dual perspective it is important not to allow them to become just another layer of confusion and complexity. Ideally, they become a vehicle to transcend that and see more clearly. Not sure if that's helpful but I thought I'd offer that perspective.

energy!

No, it doesn't - that's sort of the point...

I agree with Kar3n's approach which is essentially the Bon/Buddhist view I do think it's important to acknowledge, however, that there are traditions which reify these 'subtle beings and spirits' (as do the "lesser" vehicles in Bon) and yet manage to work with them in very skillful and effective ways. We especially see this in indigenous groups where the majority of folks may not be sophisticated enough to see the non-dual aspect but still manage to achieve their objectives working with these things in a dualistic manner.

New York has lots of great options! William CC Chen is top notch - http://williamccchen.com/ I've competed with his students and their pushing hands skill is high level. Bill Phillips is a student of Chen Man Ching and is an excellent teacher. I've trained and competed with his students as well and studied with Bill in workshops. Very high level of training - http://www.patiencetaichi.com/ Alex Dong has excellent credentials but I can't speak for him personally - http://alexdongtaichi.com/ Master Yu Go Shun has an excellent reputation but I also can't speak for him personally - http://www.meetup.com/The-New-York-Chen-Tai-Chi-Chuan-Meetup-Group/ Here is a nice list to peruse - http://martialartsnewyork.org/types/internal/

Several months ago I participated in an online workshop called Awakening the Sacred Arts. It was a wonderful experience that utilized dzogchen meditation methods to unlock creative potential. Each participant was encouraged to work on a project in any artistic discipline. It was wonderful to see, read, and hear some of the projects and even more surprising to see what came out of me! The same workshop will be offered again this summer if anyone is interested.

Wonderful! Thanks CT