doc benway

For sure my understanding of Dzogchen is incomplete, as is yours. From page 196 of Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings: "Thodgal possesses methods using various sources of light such as sunlight, moonlight, lamplight, crystals, and so on. Then there are methods for gazing into the clear, empty sky and for retreats in total darkness. In all of the cases the Thodgal visions that arise are not perceived by the eye consciousness, but by our own Rigpa. Although sunlight, and so on, represent secondary causes for the arising of the vision, the visions themselves do not arise from some external source; they arise from within us." Look back to #339 From Tenzin Namdak - "Although visions come through the Kati channel and appear to manifest in front of us, they actually arise from our interior natural light. These visions are not perceived with the normal physical eye. This is inner vision, but it manifests to us as an external vision." I just returned from a retreat on tögel practice with Tenzin Namdak's student, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. We discussed this very topic over 6 days - pointing out the nature of mind, stabilizing it, and exercising it with tögel practice. Tögel vision is pure vision, when practiced in the natural state, otherwise it is impure vision and thus dependent on conditions. It may arise in the presence of secondary conditions (skygazing, sungazing,...) but is also spontaneously present when unobstructed (hence, the dark retreat). In fact, the intent is to begin to see all appearance as pure vision, in this way dzogchen and tantra are inter-related, I think. The earlier part of your quote seems to be referring to visions that ARE dependent on causes and conditions. The part you didn't emphasize is essential - "We only need to stabilize our Thekchod practice. Then the visions come automatically." You may also want to revisit the 1st lamp which emphasizes the empty aspect of the natural state. That is the most important aspect to experience. At least that's my developing understanding. I certainly could be wrong.

Books have limitations, as do teachers - this is why both are important (refuge in lama, buddha, dharma, sangha). Books can't answer questions. The "subject/object" being discussed cannot be comprehended by rational mind and different students (and teachers) have different aptitudes, hence multiple descriptions are necessary. One quote isn't enough, one book isn't enough... Books also can't adjust their message to listeners with different needs... Teachers do that. So many things one gains from a relationship with a good teacher. From Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu studies, part II: [referring to the recognition of the natural state through tsa lulng] "First visualize the central channel described in this context as the Channel of the Lamps in which your Awareness (rigpa) blazes unobstructedly, shining like the sun in the blue sky. The luminosity emitted in this way by one's Awareness is known as the Transparent Wisdom or "Great Transparent Wisdom." It is designated as being "great" because it is beyond all dimensions and limitations. It cannot be limited to any spatial representation as it is per se limitless. It is also above and beyond any form of ordinary mental clarity, glow, etc., liable to be perceived by the sense. ...... it is not obtained at a given moment through the action of fortuitous circumstances or intentional projections. It abides as a non-discursive Pure Knowledge which is synonymous with Awareness." Incorrect - in fact, by definition the togël vision is a pure vision and not dependent on the eye or external causes. That's the whole point. The value of transmission is that it gives the teacher an opportunity to insure the conditions and communication are as good as they can be and give feedback to students to gauge their progress. That is their responsibility. Even in a weekend retreat, people ask questions and source material is clarified and commented upon. Yes, times have changed and the new utilization of technology is a wonderful opportunity to share teachings and create cyber sanghas that are very supportive. The younger lamas are embracing these opportunities effectively. Transmission means less in that context but still valuable if there is authenticity and sincerity present. Otherwise the lessons are just here-say and more prone to misinterpretation (has is quite evident here, and elsewhere). Lots of opportunities now to interact with lamas and sanghas. These teachings are about connection - genuine and sincere human connection. Sitting in a room, alone, with a book and a laptop cannot teach lessons one needs to learn about human connection. These teachings were originally oral - and that tradition continues and adds a dimension of confidence and authority that cannot be achieved with self study. Ultimately, of course, we do the work ourselves but having a credible, living, evolving, and responsive reference is very precious. The other important point about transmission is that it is a two way street. If it doesn't support your personal practice, it's irrelevant to you. If you do not connect with these teachings, that's fine. Move on to something that works for you. No need to painfully criticize all the time. These methods do work quite effectively for many people and, of course, there are imperfections.

So sad to see productive discussion of something so rare and precious as dzogchen degenerate into ad hominem attacks, desperate attempts to prove ourselves right, and discursive chatter. That aspect of this forum isn't conducive to mutual support and growth and doesn't seem to change. I doubt there is much than can be done to improve it other than individual members seeing the value in changing their way of interacting with one another.

a teacher is more important than books if you are interested in practicing dzogchen.

Check out tsegyalgar

Most who? The Bön and Buddhists explicitly define rigpa as empty, therefore no substance and no specific location.

I think it is important to acknowledge the fact that rigpa is not a substance, cannot be localized, and cannot be contained. It is the inseparability of space and clarity which knows itself. The most accurate translation of the word rigpa is knowing and it relates to a very specific knowledge. Trekchöd is recognition and stability of the natural state. Tögel is using vision and appearances to exercise that recognition and stability. Without confidence and stability in the natural state there is no tögel, only visions - anyone can have visions under the correct circumstances.

Here's rare time when I'm going to disagree with you, my friend. That seems like a very sutric perspective. The Bönpo dzogchenpas put in quite a bit of time doing energy work, always have. I can't speak to the Nyingmapas but I think it's a bit part of their work as well. And it's not a good idea to keep sight on the other shore while putting in this kind of work. The work is done fully engaged and connected, ultimately while resting fully in the natural state. No distraction, especially not goals. The process does not need to be tiresome and tedious, although I'll freely admit it is from time to time for me. We fully engage it and, in doing so, develop a deep connection to the process in and of itself. It is more than a result, it is all there is in this very moment - the process. My ultimate point is to say that early along on the path, we do need to exert effort. Over time, we can lessen the effort by letting go. At some point we don't even need to let go, that would be too effortful. Then it does itself. Hard to be there all the time, at least for me. I still do stuff.

The heart chakra is associated with that particular flavor of energy. Other chakras are associated with other types of energy and all should be opened. Also worth mentioning that, at least among the Bönpos, quite a bit of active work goes into opening the chakras and channels through breathing exercises, tsa lung, trul khor, and the like. Effort is generally required for quite a while before effortlessness stabilizes... at least for me. It's hard to remain effortless!

That is not what I said. Cultivating compassion is an aid on the path to realizing the natural state. Spontaneously arising compassion is a manifestation of success on that path.

This is inaccurate. Compassion is certainly a manifestation of the natural state and when we successfully rest in the natural state with stability, it and other enlightened qualities will begin to spontaneously manifest in our lives. The reason we cultivate compassion, along with practicing the other preliminaries in dzogchen, is to enhance the likelihood of success in our practice and to enrich our relative lives. Someone who comes to dzogchen practice without first preparing and purifying themselves are unlike to get far in their practice, even more so without skillful and direct instruction.

I agree - that's pretty cool

I don't think swimming toward dry land is interfering, it is simply doing what needs to be done. It is a natural doing that is part of the way of things. People don't want to drown, no living thing wants to drown. It only seems like "sometimes we have to interfere" when we see ourselves as a separate self that needs to interfere. Seeing through that is what I'm referring to.

That's a common misunderstanding of wu wei. For me, wu wei means to recognize that the one who thinks he/she is making decisions is an illusion and to allow life to unfold without interfering.

Space is the term used by Bönpos and my understanding is that one of its characteristics, by definition, is that it has no physical location. My guess is that the Buddhist definition would be similar. I can't speak to other traditions specifically, but I propose that if you find quotes that refer to "the void" as having a physical location, they have been mis-translated, mis-interpreted, or are pointing to a different aspect of reality than "space." And by space I don't mean outer space, I mean the elemental space. Important that we try to agree on what we are referring to.

I'd like to speak less and listen more, be more open, and make more time for practice.

When all men doubt you, what I would do is try to recognize that you are addicted to their approval. If you can liberate yourself from that disease, your outlook and potential will improve. It's not easy but there is no more valuable use of your effort than to look at that aspect of yourself very deeply. We are all trained to be that way from birth. Success is yours to define. If you subscribe to others' definitions you will try to live to their expectations rather than define your own. That can never be satisfactory. Furthermore, if you accept the materialistic definition of success, as you seem to be focused on, you will never be truly happy. Your happiness will be unstable and will fluctuate with your conditions and circumstances. Good luck on your path.

You've all made your points...

Back to the topic - We were discussing dzogchen and tantra. There's a very good book called Bönpo Dzogchen Teachings written by the most senior Bön Buddhist teacher alive, Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche. It discusses, among other things, dzogchen and tantra similarities and differences from a Bönpo perspective. Highly recommended for anyone interested in the topic.

That's not what I mean. That's too narrow a view of Thodgal - it is not all about the visual sense. In fact, it is completely independent of the visual sense which is why one method of practicing is in dark retreat. Thodgal is about experiencing the manifestation of all appearances (including but not limited to vision) as ornaments of awareness and space.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Robin. I find the teacher-student relationship to be a very important and complicated thing. I can't speak to Bruce specifically other than to say he is not quite as knowledgeable about fire methods as he claims to be. I say this based on comments in his meditation books that betray a superficial understanding of fire methods even though he claims advanced instruction in such methods. His tendency to emphasize his accomplishments is somewhat of a cultural tendency (Asians tend to be overly self deprecating whereas Westerners tend to be self aggrandizing) but undoubtedly this is also an individual idiosyncrasy. I do think Bruce is an accomplished martial artist and clearly there is value to the water method he teaches. I've had interesting relationships with my two primary meditation teachers. Much of the character and stability of the relationship stems from expectations and on both sides. It is very important for both student and teacher to be clear regarding what they expect from the other and what they are able and willing to provide for the other. Like it or not, we need to be clear and acknowledge these parameters and let go of unrealistic expectations. There is only so much that a spiritual guide or teacher can provide. The most effective methods are often the most simple but require great commitment and persistence. With all due respect, I would think that after 15 years of committed daily practice, one should be relatively independent in their practice and have a good sense of where to go and how to get there. If there are more advanced levels to focus on, there should be an opportunity to get additional specific instruction or, if not, that should be made clear by the teacher (ether that there is nothing more to learn or that he chooses not to offer it). It's important to look at what you expect from Bruce as a teacher and see how that matches up to what is realistic. I've faced similar questions with my current and former teacher. We all need different things at different times depending on our individual propensities and circumstances. The one important thing is that unrealistic expectations or other challenges to the teacher-student relationship will follow us into every relationship and must be made clear. Here is a link to what I found to be a very useful talk on the teacher-student relationship by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. It may be helpful for you because, in many ways, his teaching model is similar to that of Bruce Frantzis. Good luck on your path, wherever it may take you.

PS - When one manifests poetry from the Natural State it is similar to the practice of Thodgal

You can do that with Rushen also - it's powerfully cathartic!

Seasons change and so did I

I haven't worked with sounds specifically for chakras other than that which is associated with prayer and mantra practice. I have a good friend who does and experiences a lot of benefit. He is an independent practitioner with a great deal of meditative and qigong experience in a variety of traditions and basically put together his own routine based on Indian and Tibetan principles. Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche has a book and online resources for a Tibetan Bonpo practice called the 5 Warrior Seed Syllables. Each of the 5 syllables is associated with a chakra as well as its associated characteristics. Chanting the seed syllable is said to help us to eliminate energetic blockages and connect with the enlightened characteristics associated with the respective chakra. The 5 syllables are A Om Hung Ram Dza and relate to the crown, throat, heart, navel, and secret chakras, respectively. Here is a link to his book and online training program if it interests you. Here is an excerpt from the book: Our fundamental awake nature is not produced or created, but is already there. In the way the vast expanse of the sky is present but may be obscured by clouds, we too are obscured by habitual patterns that we mistake for ourselves. The practice of the Five Warrior Syllables is a skillful means that can support us to release our negative and limiting behavioral patterns of body, speech, and mind, and make room for a more spontaneous, creative, and authentic expression. In this practice, we recognize, connect with, and trust what is already there. There are five warrior syllables - A, OM, HUNG, RAM, and DZA - and each syllable represents a quality of realization. They are referred to as "seed syllables" because they possess the essence of enlightenment. These five syllables represent the body, speech, mind, virtuous qualities, and actions of enlightenment, respectively. Together, they represent the true and fully expressed nature of our authentic self. In the practice, we sing each warrior syllable in sequence. With each syllable, we focus on a corresponding energy center, or chakra, in the body and connect with the quality that corresponds with that syllable. The sequence moves from the pure open space of being to the place of the manifestation of virtue in action. It is my sincere desire that this simple and elegant practice of the Five Warrior Syllables, which is based on the highest teachings of the Tibetan Bön Buddhist tradition of which I am a lineage holder, will benefit many beings in the West. Please receive it with my blessing, and bring it into your life. Let it support you to become kind and strong and clear and awake. -- Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche