doc benway

One thing has occurred to me that I'd like to relate. I've been traumatized on a few occasions - chemical, emotional, psychological. Spiritual trauma is particularly devastating. The one thing that has helped me to stabilize and begin re-integration is connecting with nature. You mentioned remaining "open" in your OP. I'd suggest you consider spending some time in nature and opening to the elements. They are the greatest source of healing, IMO.

Very good advice and I, for one, appreciate your intention and believe it to be sincere. Tibetan Buddhism has been referred to as lama-ism and I don't know if any other tradition is so focused on the master-disciple relationship (Daoism comes close). An important part of the view is to recognize that the teacher is not the human being sitting front of you or even the lineage of masters, deities, and bodhisattvas. The teacher is reality, the nature of mind, that which we already are but is obscured. The human manifestations are just plays of energy in the form of flesh and bone with the ability to communicate something to us through their own experience and dedication to the path. The deities and protectors are, similarly, plays of energy in the form of imagination and 'vision' with the ability to communicate something to us from the realm of prayer, trust, and devotion. The buddhas and bodhisattvas are projections of our collective expectations of the fruition of the path established by our culture, our teachers, our traditions. To the extent that all of this stuff supports us and helps us to become more open, more loving, and more connected, it is good and necessary. To the extent any of it becomes a distraction, a fetish, an obligation - then it just becomes more of an obstruction. If we can continue to remind ourselves of this, perhaps it will be a bit easier to avoid getting too attached to the people and experiences along the way. As should we... I think that we tend to project our expectations on these people. Highly achieved teachers are still human and not yet perfect. They cannot predict the actions of all students they bump into along the way and I think the more highly achieved they are, the more they are aware of their limitations, rather than their achievements. Here's a nice talk about the student teacher relationship. It's long and there are some annoying aspects to the hosting site (he uses a different one now) but it's worth watching - it was for me anyway. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/47124034

I love this quote by Dag Hammarskjold: God does not die on the day when we cease to believe in a personal deity, but we die on the day when our lives cease to be illumined by the steady radiance, renewed daily, of a wonder, the source of which is beyond all reason. (note: I'm not saying belief in a personal God is my view, it's not, but the sentiment is spot on)

Hi DreamBliss, I'm here also. I don't know what to offer but some of my time if you think it would be of any value. I wish you well.

That's a fairly standard depiction of the channels and chakras in Bön. A higher res and slightly different version is here - http://trulkhor.net/about/ You can also google Tsa Lung and see a variety of images. I think the body/mind knows when it is ready and progresses naturally when we take the skillful approach you describe. Rather than shoot for a particular goal, usually one that is well beyond our current reach, it is very healthy to simply work on letting go of obstructions. That's what 9 Breathings and Tsa Lung are all about. The results will naturally arise as is happening for you. If you're thinking of investing in the book, read through the info on the trulkhor.net site. It's hosted by a good friend, Ale Chaoul, who is a senior student of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and had extensive training in trul khor (similar to tsa lung but much more complex and physically challenging) at Menri Monastery in India then returned here and continued his studies with Rinpoche. He's been using these methods for treating cancer patients at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas for years. He is just finishing a 5 or 6 year training program on trul khor and my be starting the cycle again next year. I cannot recommend the book highly enough but I am very biased. Plus it comes with a DVD that demonstrates all the practices so I think it's a good value for $15 The other book that I recommend (and has been even more important for me) is Awakening the Luminous Mind by the same author. In it he teaches the practices of the Three Doors which are meditative practices that guide us towards connecting with the nature of mind. I always practice the 9 Breathings and Tsa Lung as preparation for practicing the Three Doors so they are a good place to start. Also, there are multiple free videos in which Rinpoche teaches the 3 Doors practices. They can be found on youtube and here - http://www.ligmincha.org/index.php/en/programs/internet-teachings-podcast.html About halfway down the page is a series of 5 videos called "The Gift of Inner Refuge." At the time he was using a hosting site that shows sponsored messages so that's a bit annoying but the instruction is priceless. Here is a convenient place to find many of his teaching videos. Not terribly organized but very comprehensive. http://oceanofwisdom.org/ Finally, Rinpoche is working on developing a comprehensive online resource that will provide basic instruction in these methods in a more organized fashion. It will be intended to support students who don't have access to direct instruction but follow his online teachings, such as the Soul Retrieval program going on all year long - http://ligmincha.org/en/international-news/258-soul-retrieval-course-2015-en.html Edit - off topic but worth mentioning, there will be a free, live webcast tomorrow broadcast from the Fall retreat on Healing with the 5 Elements - you can learn more here - http://ligmincha.org/index.php/en/programs/broadcast-page.html

Ah

I've never heard of headless before - cool site! thanks

I have no idea what your background is in martial arts or Buddhism but if you are struggling with Takuan Soho, it might be better to start with a more basic introduction to zen or ch'an principles. Like in any study, beginning with application is difficult if the foundation isn't solid. Especially when we're applying those principles to something that is so foreign to most of us as being a swordsman in feudal Japan. For zen or ch'an "... wisdom in bite size formats" I would recommend: The Zen Teachings of Huang-Po: On the Transmission of Mind translated by John Blofeld Cultivating the Empty Field: The Silent Illumination of Zen Master Hongzhi translated by Taigen Dan Leighton Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki That said, I'm not sure that true wisdom is ever "straight forward" Working towards wisdom should challenge us, shake us up, make us question ourselves... until we let "us" go and see that's it's been there all along.

In the Tibetan traditions, there are subtle energies in the body the Tibetans refer to as winds (lung). These are associated with channels (tsa) and chakras (khorlo). There are three channels and five chakras used in basic practice and a more complex system used in tantric practices. The basic 3 channels include the right which is associated with the obstacles of anger and aversion, the left which is associated with attachment and desire, and the central which is associated with ignorance. These represent the three primary poisons, or obstacles to health and awakening. Along the central channel are 5 chakras which correspond to the 5 major winds. The basic practice is to clear the 3 channels and 5 chakras using the methods of the 9 Breathings of Purification and Tsa Lung, respectively. We clear the 3 root poisons with the 9 Breathings of Purification and we clear blockages in the 5 chakras using Tsa Lung. They are breathing exercises combined with physical movement and specific visualizations. A great and accessible resource for these practices is Awakening the Sacred Body: Tibetan Yogas and Breathing and Movement by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. You can spend a little more money and get direct instruction from Rinpoche in this online workshop. The teachings are mostly prerecorded and Rinpoche participates in a forum in which he addresses questions and gives support personally. It's not cheap but it's very worthwhile. Here is a brief introduction by Rinpoche: In my Daoist training, we had neigong exercises which developed the central channel but none that worked with the right and left channels (at leasts none that I was taught). It would be interesting to hear if anyone is familiar with Daoist practices associated with the two side channels.

Love it Otis! And nice to see you here... Your presence here has been missed. Keep up the good work.

That takes way too long!

Shun Jin Fa: - Method that follows the muscles and tendons (my translation, my teacher never gave us an English name). It always uses a light touch. There is a fair amount of training the hands in advance in both strength and sensitivity. It combines a variety of stroking, massage, tapping, slapping, scratching and so on. It follows muscle and tendon contours and also energetic contours. No medicine of any kind is used on the hands. Sometimes we move from central to peripheral and sometimes the opposite, depending on what is needed. Guan Jiu: - Moxibustion with a tube (same comment regarding translation). This involves making small, very superficial lacerations in the skin with a razor over energetic pathways surrounding or related to an area of injury or other problem. The cuts aren't much deeper than a deep scratch. Small bamboo tubes are cut and soaked in simmering medicine for hours. The cuts are made, the tubes are applied after cooling briefly, the characteristics of the blood that comes out into the tube has diagnostic value for those who can read it. The traditional method is to reuse the tubes and to put them back into the communal simmering pot of medicine (!)... tough sell these days. And it's pretty difficult to cut new tubes and brew a separate batch of medicine for each individual. I was taught that this method predates and gave rise to acupuncture but I can't verify that statement. Both methods can be used independently or in conjunction. I've seen some impressive results but all testimonial. I can't offer any data to support either. While daomon made a statement I objected to, Xiao Hongchi makes some pretty outrageously claims such as having treated 250 people with prostate disease and "every single one of them has had great success." Another quote from his website - “effective on about all diseases.” Like you pointed out, no treatment is right for every one or every problem so claims like this loose all credibility for me. Regarding the diabetic child's death: "The incident took place in Sydney, where Lily and Geoff Fenton took their diabetic son Aidan to Hongchi’s seminar at the Ritz Hotel in Hurtsville. The parents were advised not to give the boy any food for 72 hours, while he was undergoing the slapping therapy at the workshop. The parents complied, but the boy ended up retching during the session. Later, Aidan was found unconscious in his hotel room. His parents’ screams drew the attention of the hotel staff, who called emergency services. “At about 9.50pm on Monday April 28 emergency services were called to a hotel in Hurstville after a family member found a seven-year-old boy in an unconscious state,” a police spokesperson said. “The ambulance paramedics performed CPR on the boy, however he was pronounced dead at the scene.” Witholding food and insulin for 72 hours from a child with Type I diabetes? If it is true that was recommended by Xiao, it's manslaughter at best, 2nd degree murder at worst. I am a big supporter of different methods of healing but there needs to be some common sense and accountability whether we're talking about Western or Eastern paradigms.

Yes, I actually have experience with similar methods - the use of shun jin fa and guan jiu. Shun jin fa involves stroking, massaging, and slapping. Guan jiu involves bloodletting. No question the Western media are not the greatest resource for fair, balanced, and unbiased information - neither are Eastern media and self-promoting folk healers. My issue is with statements like "cancer? no problem" Particularly when, despite so many glowing testimonials, there is no data to support the method. There is corruption in Western medical science for sure, and there is also value. In the absence of data, there is no way to know if paida and laijin are effective and for which disorders. How much, for how long, etc... Fortunately, it's relatively harmless as long as you still take your insulin. Like you said, nothing is 100%. I think it's worthwhile trying to study these methods. Believing the testimonials is the same as listening to people tell us their medication makes them feel better. I would encourage anyone who feels a connection to this method to explore it. I don't think it should be imposed on people through intimidation and I think we should use caution when embracing a method that has no data to support it. Just as we should use caution when interpreting scientific data that may be tainted by economic interests.

I think this is a good and important point. How are we to know what others need? How are we to know what we need? Certainly there are times when people need to hit rock bottom to begin to climb back up. And yet we've probably all experienced benefit in our [edit for spelling] lives through the help of others. This leads to the fundamental paradox of wu wei. How to know when we are following nature and how to know when we are interfering? Using that same logic, if there is no other, then anything I do to help others is helping myself. Anything I do to hurt others is hurting myself. This is the basis for Bodhicitta in Buddhism. Helping is not necessarily a lure into illusion. Depending on the perspective, it can be a reinforcement of truth. Voila!

A few other thoughts occurred to me about this topic as I was practicing this morning. The principle discussed above seems to pervade other areas of Buddhism, the principle of letting go. In meditation, the object is not to replace one thought or feeling with another, it is simply to let go. No need to fill that space with anything When we engage in charitable behavior, the object is not to replace what we are giving, in other words to receive compensation or notoriety, but rather to simply give. When we practice the preliminaries (ngöndro), every step involves letting go in one form or another. I could probably go through other aspects of practice and training and find many other examples. In formulating the view, the object is not substitute one view for another, it is to have direct experience of the non-conceptual basis that transcends all conceptual views. I think this is the insight Krishnamurti was trying to communicate when he advocated eschewing all paths and all methods. This can occur through the study of madhyamaka and through the practice of meditation. In the case of madhyamaka, to see from the outside that the method simply negates all positions is not necessarily helpful as it can give the false impression of nihilism. What the masters have pointed to is that we need to practice long enough and understand thoroughly enough to actually see the truth that it is pointing to, the inherent failure of all positions to capture absolute truth. We need to actually have an experience of what it means to negate all possible positions for ourselves, leading to a direct experience of that non-conceptual truth.

That was a common criticism of madhyamaka philosophy - what is the point of criticizing philosophical systems if you offer nothing as an alternative? in fact, that was a point of contention within the madhyamaka school and is the point that defines a division into two sub-schools: the Svātantrika school associated with Bhāvaviveka and the Prāsaṅgika school attributed to Candrakīrti. Bhāvaviveka shared the sentiment that it isn't enough to simply tear down other positions and tried to assert a positive, independent (svatantra) position that all phenomena lack inherent natures. Candrakīrti disagreed with Bhāvaviveka's position and advocated that it was enough to simply demonstrate the unsatisfactory consequences (prasanga) of all possible positions. Given that the view of madhyamaka is that, at the ultimate level, concept and language fail to be able to describe the nature of things, the effectiveness of madhyamaka at bringing all descriptions and discussion of positions to an end without proposing an alternative explanation really does satisfy its objective. Hopefully others will weigh in on this as my understanding is rudimentary. Here's a concise discussion of the core madhyamaka writings: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/madhyamaka/

Emotions have played a big role in my experience of and practice of spirituality. I was more or less an emotional cripple, an emotional moron, for most of my life (some might say I still am)... I was disconnected from emotion largely - more focused on intellect. Most of my emotional life cycled between anger and relative tranquility. I wasn't very sensitive to or concerned with the emotions of others, that was more an inconvenience distracting me from "more important" concerns... I had a big, traumatic shake up in my life. To make a long story short, it opened me up over time and I became more aware, more connected, and more sophisticated with respect to emotion. That shake up and opening up were and are associated with my spiritual pursuits although who can say whether there is cause and effect there? For me, thoughts were always much more a focus than emotions. Certainly the two are linked but also somewhat independent. Now I am more in touch with both in a more balanced way. What I've come to see is that they share a common characteristic, they are self contained 'systems' to borrow a description from something I'm reading now, which are self-sustaining and reinforcing. In other words, they are endless streams of experience that cannot resolve themselves or each other. They are an endless attribute of human experience. Like CT, my approach now is not to attempt to clear thought or clear emotion. It is not to analyze or understand, eradicate or choose among the myriad thoughts and emotions which come and go. Trying to deal with the individual thoughts and emotions is an endless, cyclical task like Sisyphus rolling the boulder up a mountain. Like washing blood from your hands with more blood. To get to the root of the matter and put things in their proper perspective, I think one has to look back at the one to whom the emotions and thoughts are occurring. Rather than looking at and examining each of the emotional states, their cause, and so on. look at who is looking. And I don't mean that strictly in a metaphysical sense but a practical sense. For anyone interested in one particular way to look at it, feel free to read more. A primary reason that we are emotionally affected by things is because we are over-identifying with our role in a relationship. And that role has associated with it a set of expectations we have created, or have had created for us. For example, if I feel stress or emotional upheaval related to my daughter (lets say I don't like the way she dresses and it creates fear, anger, sadness), it is a consequence of me identifying with my role as the father and holding on to the expectations associated with that role. Someone else would have totally different expectations and a totally different emotional reaction (they might like the way she dresses). We can extend that to every aspect of our lives and every emotional experience. If we really spend time looking, we can never find a "me" but just the role we are identifying with in a relationship. And that relationship can even be with myself - I am upset that I am spending time writing this rather than meditating. It's because the meditator (a role I identify with) is disappointed (expectations not satisfied) by the one who likes to pontificate on the DaoBums forum (another role that's a little harder to admit, but one that I equally identify with) and the reality is that the pontificator is as much a part of my life at this moment (maybe more) than the meditator. When we see that these experiences rest on something as completely intangible and transient as sets of ideas and expectations, they suddenly lose some of their power over our lives. It's particularly entertaining when we see where these expectations come from (friends, family, ancestors, social structures, etc...). The experiences are no less real but they are no longer solid or in control of us. We can still feel and think, experience the ups and downs, enjoy our lives and cry when loved ones are hurting, but there is a degree of being OK with all of it because we are less attached, we see the impermanent and empty nature of these things. Anyway... that's sort of where I started with exploring emotion in my life and where it took me. It seems to be working reasonably well for me at the moment and that's really what counts. We can indulge ourselves in theories and ideas but it's important to look at whether or not these things are making our lives, and the lives of those around us, any better. If not, what's the point? Can we still call what we are doing spirituality?

It may be a quick question, but I wonder how quick an answer I can come up with... It's neither one with nor different from the aggregates. Either proposition runs into trouble. I'll try to explain why but I suspect you or others can do this better... 1. If this "self aware self illuminating mind that is empty of subject object duality" [may I simply call this "self" for convenience?] is one with the aggregates then it must be impermanent and compounded as the aggregates are... it will come and go, it cannot be permanent, it can be broken down into constituent parts. As we discussed above, if this were the case and I had an injury, for example, is the self injured? When my perception or feelings change, does my "self" change? 2. If this "self" is different from the aggregates then it does not have the characteristics of the aggregates meaning, as you described earlier, how could it be within the sphere of experience? If completely outside the realm of experience and awareness, what good is it? How could it influence anything or be of significance? If it were different from the aggregates, there would be no self clinging to life, clinging to health, and so forth. I think it is all in my head, otherwise I wouldn't be getting a headache!

Wonderful discussion Rigdzin Trinley - thank you for your time. I've read some of the sources you reference. The most challenging and fulfilling for me was Mipham's Beacon. I really struggled with the original (John Petit's translation) and got a lot of assistance form the wonderful explanation given by Anyen Rinpoche in his book Journey to Certainty. I am more a practitioner than a scholar but I respect the importance of both and Mipham really does build that bridge beautifully. I try to put much more time into practice than study but I will make some time to look into some of the other readings you suggest. I suspect you would find Lumann extremely interesting. A big thank you to Yueya for recommending him. I have only just begun to read Luhmann's theories through the interpretation and explanation of Moeller. In the first section of the first chapter he already outlines the basis of his systems theory which essentially establishes the foundation for dependent origination and breaks down human experience into three major systems of body, communication, and psyche... eg body, speech, and mind! And he proposes these systems to be autopoietic - essentially non-arising and non-ceasing, independent of one another and yet connected... It is shockingly consistent with your recent comments and my (limited) understanding of Buddhist ontology. But that said, I'll add the disclaimer that I"m not a scholar and know very little about philosophy.

I had no idea. It would be eerie if I had not just downloaded the other book!

Lots of good stuff to be found through J Krishnamurti. I also disagree with him not infrequently, and I'm OK with that too. I don't read him much anymore but will always have a warm place in my heart for him.

Very nice post, Rigdzin Trinley - I've had very little formal Buddhist education but I've worked through some of this on my own. The stickiest area for me was seeing how the self is not the same as the brain. How do your teachers approach that specific question? For me, it was a matter of seeing that if it is the brain, then it must also be the heart and the blood vessels, lungs,... because the brain is incapable of existing independent of the other major organs which keep it alive. So if it is the brain, it is the entire organism. And we can extend that to the environment of the organism because no organism has ever existed in the absence of environment, nor is it possible. Lungs are meaningless without air, etc... So then the self is inseparable from the organism and its environment. Another way of looking at it is, if the self is the brain and I have brain surgery and remove a portion of the brain, have I removed a portion of the self? Here it gets tough because, indeed if we remove parts of our brain we certainly do go through major changes to our perception of self and the perception of others but that depends in large part on which parts we would remove and to what degree. Also, if we destroy the brain we certainly destroy our self. Are there other, more skillful ways of excluding the brain as the "seat" of the self through Buddhist logic and debate? I was looking at investing in a book on the subject - http://www.amazon.com/The-Course-Buddhist-Reasoning-Debate/dp/1559394218 Are you familiar with this book? If so, would you recommend it? Thanks

I admire your honesty, insight, and humility, Des.

Yes

Thanks 3bob I guess that makes me just a little bit like Jesus... Buddhism is a bit of an enigma to me. Even Buddhists can't agree on what it is. It is as complex as all the sutras and tantras combined. It is as simple as dzogchen. To make things even more confusing, I study and practice Bön which has its own separate canon consisting of over 300 volumes (possibly many more than that). The history is different, the iconography is different, the prayers and mantras are different, and yet when you boil it all down, it's exactly the same. I'm happy to discuss my views any time and I reserve the right to be wrong.