doc benway

You make a very good point. We certainly learn and grow from our misadventures. I'm fairly confident in saying that life is going to throw circumstances at us which will challenge us at times, sometimes to the extreme, whether we look for them or try to avoid them. Certainly we are all going to face death, our own and that of loved ones. I don't think we have to be too concerned with being so well adjusted that we will not grow. What brought me to the spiritual path were some extremely difficult experiences. I think those are the very things that bring us to the point where we begin to see what is important in our lives and live our lives in a way that is consistent with and supportive of what we value.

I agree - the mind is very useful for our day to day existence as long as we are living in society. I will say this: in the beginning, it is enough for us to simply practice in the absence of distractions. Once we develop a degree of competence and stability, it is time to bring into those mundane and earthly activities. Practicing only on the cushion will not take us that far - we need to bring these practices into our lives, particularly during trying times and circumstances. It's particularly important to learn how to let our emotions become triggers for us to access that state. When we get angry, frustrated, bored,... no better time to use these methods and rest in that state. With enough practice it become automatic and eventually the unnecessary reactions simply no longer arise as often. This is one way these practices can really change our lives.

I think we need to be careful about speaking of reality vs fantasy. We can speculate about perfection of the non-dual state but for practical purposes we need to acknowledge that we are human, we are not perfect and will not be so for the foreseeable future. Well, we don't need to acknowledge this, but I choose to. Our only hope of success is through looking at reality, not fantasy, and looking at ourselves as we are rather than as we would like to be. In my practice, the objective is to spend short periods of time resting in what is my best approximation of the non-dual state (I'm equating this to what we refer to as the nature of mind), and to gradually increase the frequency and duration of such periods. Then, as stability improves, this state is brought into more and more challenging activity and circumstances with the ultimate objective being exactly what you are questioning. Does it occur and to what degree? I've met masters whose demeanor and behavior suggests they are quite accomplished. My own success so far is quite limited but the changes these practices have brought into my life are so positive, that I feel progressively more devoted and optimistic rather than discouraged.

I've played with my fair share of psychedelics. Those experiences pale in comparison to "the treasure." Drug induced experiences are powerful for sure but are still just that - experiences that are limited in time and space. "The treasure" is infinite, beyond time and space. Beyond birth and death, beyond beginning and ending. Hard to believe for sure but belief is not necessary, more often than not I find it to be an obstacle. That's something that takes much devotion and patience but it can be quite accessible. I can only guess at the potential as my own is quite limited. But when you see and interact with accomplished masters, it seems that the sky is the limit! Not really as much easier as you may think or want... The momentum of our karma is very powerful. Although seeing and feeling the progress is a great support. Having a beloved teacher and spiritual friends can also be a great support. Yup... the speculation is never-ending. Interrupt it with practice! I credit that to my teacher. He loves to use the mother and child analogy. Quite apt. Mine have, but not completely. Practice is the one thing for me that can eclipse the power of the desire. And it's important to acknowledge that we are still human until the day we die. We will never know it all or be completely without our weaknesses and warts. We need to accept and embrace them, transform them through awareness rather than struggle with them. One of my favorite teachers, Anthony Demello, talks about this quite a bit. That which we abstain from we are bound to. Awareness without judgement is more effective. Damage? For sure - all chemicals we put in our system have consequences, natural or synthetic. Recreational, sacrament, or pharmaceutical. Less receptive to truth? No, I don't think so - you are an ornament of the truth. And the truth is powerful enough to shine through no matter how damaged you may feel. In fact, I think it often requires a considerable degree of suffering before we begin to open. I agree with you that sincerity and devotion are the antidote. That's a great start. With respect to the authentic master, I feel that the universe will provide when you are ready. My first meeting with my teacher was quite fortuitous. If I didn't experience it myself I'd find it hard to swallow. PS - everything I say is nothing more than my personal opinion based on my personal experience. Take it all with a grain of salt. If you are ever looking for support in your practice or your efforts to transcend addiction you are always welcome to send me a message. Warm regards and good luck!

I've still got work to do.

Wonderful questions and honesty - that's a great start! To answer the original question in a word - yes, it's worth it. The spiritual path is nothing more or less than looking at oneself closely, deeply, and honestly. There is nothing else that is needed. The changes will occur through the very process of awareness. In asking these questions you are already beginning. If you are fortunate and devoted, you will discover a treasure far beyond any artificially induced state. There is a beautiful verse from the Bön tradition - "Its positive qualities are inconceivable, Like the revelation of a king's treasure. The one who rests within its true meaning Enjoys the inexhaustible wealth of its fruition." It's very hard for the thinking mind to give up the things it craves and thinks it needs, including the incessant worry about the future and rumination about the past. No need to worry about giving up things or how you may feel in the future. No need to worry about what will happen when enlightenment is there. Right now you still want and need the support that these things give you. That's OK. Have some patience and compassion for yourself, treat yourself as you would a child who has lost its mother. The spiritual path is not something that can be planned or predicted. The entire path is contained within each and every step. Let go of the planning and predicting and simply take that first step - see where it leads you. If you begin to walk a genuine spiritual path with sincerity, you will soon begin to see tangible changes in your life. With time your dependence on these distractions and indulgences will fade as you feel the support of truth. I would highly recommend you get connected with a credible and authentic spiritual guide, group, or friend who can support you in this. Going it alone is much less predictable and makes it much easier to miss the mark and quit. Good luck and blessings to you on your path!

At the end of the day all I can do is work on myself. Peace

I don't know about any books but can make a few simple suggestions - - Develop a sincere and genuine intention to connect with the flora - If you resonate with it, use prayer to help with this - Open your heart and mind and direct your attention to the flora - Show great respect - It's particularly beneficial to connect around the areas where you live and work - Express loving intention and concern for their well being - Open all of your senses and take in their smell, feel, appearance, and so on - Give it time as plants, especially trees, are on a much slower cycle than we are - Don't be too concerned with verbal or conceptual communication, be open to deeper and more subtle levels of impression, feeling, and being - If you have a meditation practice, try to rest in a meditative state of mind as you do this Good luck! PS - I would also encourage you to consider trying to connect in a similar way to other natural manifestations - animals, birds, insects, mountains, streams, rivers, sun, moon, sky, and most importantly - the elements of earth, water, fire, air, and space. Edited to add video link - This may give a little more insight. When we communicate with other lifeforms it is important to try and communicate on their level, using their context, rather than ours. http://cryptik.squarespace.com/home/the-consciousness-of-trees.html

Quoted for emphasis... And these eloquent comments apply equally well to Daoist cultivation, Buddhist and Bon practices, martial arts, and so forth. I may have to borrow your similes from time to time if you don't mind. Warm regards,

Thank you for that, it is excellent advice. I agree with him 100% and I would urge you to consider whether you feel that he is speaking to you or just to everyone else. I have a lot of respect for Nakhai Norbu Rinpoche. One of his teachers is my teacher's teacher. Anytime we listen to teachings, it is important to see what they mean for us personally. It is very important to be able to look at ourselves as if we were someone else, our teacher for example, looking at us from the outside. Seeing yourself clearly is the only way forward in these practices. The single most important thing to cultivate for a Dzogchen-pa is openness. If you are going to exclusively focus on Dzogchen practices, I would highly recommend you also open yourself to the Dzogchen view because that is what the practices aim to develop. Otherwise, what can one expect to gain from practicing methods that are intended to develop a view that one rejects and ridicules?

You do realize, don't you, that the view and objective of the Dzogchen method is what I presented earlier. The view that you and Ken object to and ridicule. Everything is absolutely perfect and complete exactly as it is in this very moment. There is nothing more to be or gain. Every pith instruction from the great masters who are said to have achieved the jalus is basically the same - leave everything exactly as it is. The Dzogchen exercises, including thodgal, are designed to cultivate this view. In fact, that is the definition of Dzogchen. Curious that you choose to exclusively train in exercises designed to cultivate a view that you object to.

Wonderful - Leonard Cohen's eloquent and concise exposition of the two truths of Buddhism! I love the Xin Xin Ming. One of the things I like about it is the difficulty I have in classifying it. Is it Buddhist? Is it Daoist? Is it Zen/Chan? For me it really doesn't matter anymore. It gets to the essence of each without permitting itself to be pigeon-holed, at least in my opinion.

_/\_I believe that you would. I believe that your original question is about dispelling the darkness of ignorance. In fact, in an esoteric and "innermost secret" teaching of the Bon tradition, namely the 21 nails, the primordial Buddha, or fundamental nature of being, Kuntuzangpo, is referred to as the one who dispels the darkness of ignorance. This darkness has infinite aspects but the fundamental core is not realizing the nature of who and what we are, which is of course Kuntuzangpo. Darkness refers to our samsaric existence, a life of confusion, suffering, and ignorance. The bodhisattva is mentioned because in the Mahayana tradition, the cultivation of bodhicitta is the path to illumination, the two go hand in hand. Yes, ignorance is the illusion being pointed out. The middle way is not an illusion, it is the way toward the truth.

_/\_

And this seems like a provocation but you are welcome to call it what you like. Peace

I don't feel like arguing. Good luck on your path.

Exactly the point I was making in the post that got your dander up... And as Vonnegut would say, so it goes... Peace

I don't believe so - any contradiction can generally be explained through the two truths doctrine. On the other hand, Dzogchen is generally referred to as the highest vehicle.

My first comment was pointing to what your opinion of a buddha and immortal appears to be. My second comment refers to my opinion. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that. I am and I'm inferring quite a bit from them. Thanks edited for grammar

From a Dzogchen view, I would respectfully disagree as enlightenment transcends both samsara and nirvana.

I have no problem using words like alchemy and neidan to refer to a specific practice or process as in the example you cite. My comment was related more to the use of alchemy and neidan as generic terms relating to heterogeneous groups of practices. I don't find such generic usage to be useful. On the other hand, I do respect the effort to be clear in our use of terminology but in my experience such discussions are rarely productive.

A buddha has nothing to do with being superhuman, nor does a Daoist immortal. I suspect people here don't think Mo Pai is about setting paper on fire. They are responding to folks who are infatuated with videos of people who seem to be setting paper on fire. There's a difference. But I can really only speak for myself.

This is my daily practice.

Mo Pai is not about getting superpowers but those who lust after it are. What is an immortal spirit if not a superpower of sorts? Nope How does insulting the intelligence of others help you along your path? I assert that everyone participating in this discussion has the intelligence to get what Mo Pai and Daoist Alchemy are about. In fact, some of us have actually received direct training in Daoist methods from credible masters.

I practice neidan is 3 words. I make the pill of eternal youth is 7 words. It is ellipsis. I would also be cautious about applying English based linguistic and grammatical terminology to Chinese. I'm not sure that the transition is consistently applicable. Edited to add - practicing internal alchemy does not improve the "pill of eternal youth" Furthermore, you also have the pill of eternal youth in your possession, you are simply unable to access it due to faulty perspective. Both in practicing the guitar and practicing neidan or internal alchemy, what is being improved is the "I", not the object. How does this differ from saying I practice making the pill of eternal youth or I practice internal alchemy? This would beg the question have you succeeded yet? Claiming I practice something does not necessarily cause me to want to hide the fact that I have not yet mastered or completed the practice. I practice taijiquan. If asked if I have yet mastered the skill, I would have no problem simply answering the question. I think you are being presumptuous in declaring that those who use the term neidan are doing so in order to be evasive. I think it is more likely that they are simply making an alternative choice in the use of English translation of esoteric Chinese terminology. Rectification of names is a wonderful thing and in all the years I've participated in this forum I've seen no progress towards standardization of terminology. In fact, I have yet to see you define your own use of terms. My apologies if I've overlooked that. Consequently, I feel that getting bogged down in English translation of esoteric Chinese characters that most native Chinese cannot satisfactorily explain is not an effective use of our time. Discussing specific practices is more efficient and more in keeping with rectification of names than discussing the labels of heterogeneous classes of practices that defy standardization. 2nd edit - For what it's worth, I try to avoid the labels internal alchemy and neidan. I don't think they add anything to our understanding, communication, or development.