doc benway

In the Tibetan Bön tradition, the scriptures and teachers are both treated with reverence. That is not to say that one does not question and use their common sense. In setting up a Bönpo shrine, for example, a scriptural book of some sort, representative of the Buddha's speech, is alway on the highest shelf - nothing should be placed above or on top of it, not even a stupa or statue of the Buddha. In general, Tibetans treat books with great respect and care, even those that are not spiritual. Education was relatively rare for the average Tibetan and was therefore highly respected. Teachings, whether written or oral, aren't really looked at as fallible or infallible, they are different things to different people. If the teachings work, it is because the combination of causes and conditions came together for these teachings and this individual to achieve a synergy that produce the desired result. If they fail, same thing. Human beings are not infallible. It is the responsibility of the student to scrutinize the teacher and vice versa. However, once one has accepted a teacher and decided that the teacher is legitimate and credible, they devote themselves to the teacher entirely. That is not to say that one should not remain aware and act appropriately should the teacher prove to be untrustworthy. But that devotion is quite literally the fuel behind the practices. In guru yoga, the teacher is seen as a representative of the divine, embodying the very essence of that which is changeless, limitless, etc... And when we unite with that representation, we are also manifesting that essence. While it may seem on the surface that Buddhism over emphasizes emptiness and impermanence, that is only at a scriptural level. The meditative practices are designed to put the student in touch directly with that changeless essence that you refer to.

He's talking about the failure of such "great meditators" to reach enough insight through shamatha alone to successfully recognize the nature of mind in the bardo after death. Shamatha can be very appealing and gratifying but we can also develop it to a very high level without developing the proper view - proper insight. Consequently they are unable to avoid rebirth or insure themselves a favorable rebirth because they don't recognize the nature of mind in the bardo. I don't know for sure but I suspect he chooses animal rebirth as the example due to the fact that doing nothing but practicing shamatha without proper insight, is not much different than resting the mind as an animal often does. I don't mean to bash shamatha (it's a wonderful and, IMO, necessary practice) but Milarepa was notoriously harsh with his words.

Another important question we can ourselves is, should I be asking myself questions or is there perhaps some other technique to use that could be even more beneficial? I've used a variety of questions over the years (decades) and some have been mentioned. Lately I've been using a different approach. Rather than use a question, I take that moment of mindfulness to go in a different direction - non-conceptual. Certainly the intellect can be useful in our practices but I would wager that most of us think way more than necessary and don't practice nearly enough non-conceptually. So rather than ask myself a question, I practice meditation during those moments. It's just what I'm doing now. I'm not saying it is necessarily better or worse than other approaches. I will say this - it is much better for me and where I'm at currently. I am seeing much more happening and changing in me than when asking myself questions.

Can the Dao be found in a 66 hour work week? For sure it can, once beyond the beginner stages. If we are not integrating our view and practices into our daily lives, off the cushion, then why bother at all? The time we need to connect is not when things are pretty and peaceful but when things are challenging. That's why we practice in the first place.

I can only speak to my limited experience in Tibetan Buddhism and Bön but there is a reverence for scriptural authority. Certainly there are statements regarding the importance of testing everything and not simply relying on belief, but there is no rejection of scriptural truth. The Buddha's speech is the highest of the representations of body, speech, and mind. Perhaps you are referring to Zen?

Agreed - I hesitate to even try and define 'wisdom' as that would be to limit it, but there is a "knowing" that causes people to walk the path I described. I can think of no better label than wisdom.

Personally, I would disqualify awareness as a "quality". That said, I agree that awareness is the foundation of all other practices and hence our most important activity.

I guess you missed the part where I typed "... from my perspective. " That was my acknowledgement of subjectivity. It was not my intention to provide fair and comprehensive commentary on all points of view. Marbles was clearly showing contempt for Theists while accusing Spotless of belittling people. I know him well enough to know that he would not want to be intentionally hypocritical and pointed that out. I consider Marbles a friend, whereas I don't really have any relationship with flowing hands and Spotless so I didn't feel a desire or responsibility to criticize their posts. Of course I did, his mode of presentation can sometimes be confrontational. I think that's his voice and he seems to be aware of it. I'm not trying to play mod here. That was kind of you and accurate but when we have expectations of others we are inviting disappointment. I do not have an opinion about whether or not Spotless was being fair, nor did I offer one. He was, however, treating Theist and Atheist perspectives with parity. This treatment comes from a fundamental understanding of the inherent flaw in both perspectives, not from an intent to belittle the individuals adopting these views. At least, that's how I see it.

Thanks for your openness, I did not mean to be critical, just objective... from my point of view.

Spotless' argument, in my view, is embracing Theist, Atheist, and Agnostic on equal footing. From my perspective, you are belittling Theists with your disdain, Spotless is belittling no one.

I agree but for totally different reasons...

I think you're on to something. I would say wisdom, but that is vague. This wisdom manifests in putting the welfare of all sentient beings on equal footing with one's own.

The fundamental nature is certainly mirror-like and at the same time it contains infinite potential. Is it best to say that it is not responsible for creating anything, or perhaps we should say that all is created within this fundamental nature yet none of it has any inherent existence. After all, what is there outside of this nature of mind that is reflected and creates images? The reflections are empty and what casts those reflections is equally empty. The mirror analogy only tells part of the story, IMO. edited to add - I think the OP would enjoy reading Krishnamurti - he covers this topic extensively and insightfully

I agree with Marblehead that the question is artificial. "Philosophical Daoism" is a focus on philosophical principles derived from Daoism, intentionally ignoring the theistic, supernatural, magical, and alchemical elements. The parent religion from which this philosophy is extracted is clearly a theistic tradition. The choice to extract all theistic elements could be motivated by atheistic or agnostic beliefs. In my opinion, those beliefs are inherent in those making the choice of what aspects of Daoism they choose to embrace, not in the source material itself.

Another wonderful thing to consider deeply - alone and lonely are not the same thing. We can be terribly lonely in a crowd or even with the one we love. And learning how to be properly alone is the antidote.

Indeed, what is it that denotes truth? How do we know it to be genuine?

Hi Julian, I would agree that the issue is social anxiety. You appear to see this as an issue as well but I think you are looking for a short cut or an easy "energetic" fix so that you don't have to face the real issues and root causes. While you may see some incremental or temporary benefit from energetic practices like reciting a mantra or wearing a chakra stone, real change requires that you dig deeper, IMO. One of my favorite spiritual teachers is Anthony Demello - a now deceased Jesuit who speaks extensively about the genesis of social anxiety. He like to point out to us that one of our greatest problems in this life is our addiction to the approval of others. This is something that is ingrained in us from early childhood. We are taught to need the approval of our parents, then that gets extended to family members, friends, teachers, bosses, partners, and the list goes on and on. The solution is to have an insight into the truth of this in every aspect of our lives - AWARENESS. Once that awareness is firmly established we have already begun to change. We have the strength to face and be with the truth and see through it for what it is - nothing more than an idea, a concept, a conditioned response. The approval of others cannot help you - any benefit you perceive from that is pure illusion. The disapproval of others cannot harm you - it is you who punish yourself due to lack of perceived approval. If any of this touches something in you, you may want to check out a wonderful set of CD's called Wake Up to Life. It is the only approved, comprehensive recording of one of his retreats and it can quite literally change your life. This sort of change is not easy, and most people do not really want to change because it's much easier to stick with our familiar patterns. There are other resources out there including several wonderful books and brief snippets of his talks on youtube. Good luck, Steve

In the Bön view of Tibet, a shamanic tradition, the soul (བླ = bla, pronounced la) is a manifestation of the interplay of the five elements of space, air, fire, water, and earth (a yang ram mang khang). The mantra of the five elements is "a yang ram mang khang drum du." Traditional healers look for evidence of brightness and vitality or dullness and darkness as evidence of the "health" of the soul. The healthy soul is a reflection of balance of the internal and external elemental forces in a person whereas imbalance leads to illness. Balance can be lost through many of the stressors of our daily lives but the fundamental causes are the three root poisons of attachment, aversion, and ignorance. Balance can be restored through a deeper connection to the external elements in nature and through meditative practices that open us to our elemental nature internally. Proof? This whole process of defining the soul is an artificial dividing up and labeling of aspects of the human experience and condition. Whether we label it one way or another, then prove that with other supporting labels may be intellectually stimulating but ultimately doesn't take us very far, IMO. I think every tradition has an interesting take on the soul (as do each of us as individuals) and that is a reflection of how it views the world through it's unique combination of geography, culture, and historical influences. I don't really subscribe to any one being right and another wrong. For me, I learn what I can from each and see how it can be of use and how it fits into or modifies my personal view.

What we are looking for, I think most would agree, is beyond intellect - beyond conventional mind. While some traditions attempt to use intellect to go beyond intellect and with some success, I agree that at some level the power of the intellect can be the very thing that is the greatest obstacle. Perhaps there are distinct qualities or characteristics of intellect that can be beneficial on the path but, at least for me, the process and individuals are far too varied and complex for me to see a pattern. What I do tend to see, however, is a spark, a genuineness, a glimmer of wisdom, in those that have made contact. Not sure I can see too much of a commonality among those who will make contact, although the one thing that comes closest to a predictor in my experience is a history of life altering trauma. As I eluded to earlier, I think that the whole question of awakening has a bit of a "quantum" character to it. Please pardon my use of that word as I don't mean to bring us into a pseudo-scientific, new age discussion. But the nature of this process for me has a fundamental discontinuity about it and a paradoxical component - Schrödinger's cat is both dead and alive and yet it is neither. We are already what we seek and can never arrive somewhere we already are at. And once we arrive there, we see that there was never anywhere to go and that we really have not changed, and yet we are never the same again. We feel the truth of who/what we are deep, beneath our bones, and yet we cannot control the fact that have this limited perspective and cycle in and out of distraction and confusion. And we then try to hold on to what we always had and feel like it's slipping away... So we work at gaining some stability but, for me at least, it can be very elusive. But when we need it, that beacon of certainty is there, like a lighthouse glimpsed between waves in a storm. Sorry for the rambling but I felt like sharing some of my feelings.

I'm of the opinion that the drive to "know" is more mundane and basic than a need for self-righteousness, although I do think you're on to something there as well. I think it is a desire for security. This is why we label everything we encounter - if we have a label for something, we can file that away as something that is understood. If we understand something, we know how much of a threat or opportunity it offers us and this is the foundation for our (illusion of) security. I think this tendency and utility of our mind is how we have become so successful in dominating our environment and competing organisms, in many ways to our detriment as others have so rightly pointed out.

Well said... again we agree. Far too many of us are living in the hungry ghost realm and our present Western model, which is being adopted world wide, makes it challenging for folks to realize that it's possible do otherwise. And that can happen to anyone, we all have the potential under the right circumstances. The distinction between them and us is artificial.

Yes, I'm unfortunately familiar with that photograph and with some of the history of the First People of this "great" country of ours, baptized in slavery and genocide. No surprise that her children are addicted to violence and power. Your discussion of reality begs the question, what is reality now? Is it not the screen itself? It's as if the organic is now unreality. Technology seems to me to be little more than an amplifier of human intention. And one thing is for sure, the human tends to be insatiable.

I agree with you 100%, that doesn't lessen the irony. If we are so down on the technology why use it? Why not live our values rather than write about them? And yes, I'm guilty as well. Technology, like all else, is a balance - yin / yang It makes our lives much easier and more pleasant, which makes us fat, sick, and lazy... It allows us to feed, clothe, and shelter our kind much more efficiently and effectively, and so we have overpopulated the planet and will eventually choke ourselves out by using up our resources. Our cognitive abilities have taken us to wonderful places in the arts, sciences, and spiritual realm, and put us at risk from religious fundamentalism, nuclear technology, child pornography, and pollution... There's no free ride. With great freedom and capacity comes great responsibility and, unfortunately, we can clearly see how sorely lacking we are in emotional and intellectual maturity as a species. Like Jiddu Krishnamurti liked to point out, we've come a very long way technologically, but not emotionally or psychologically. I do seem to see some degree of change and awakening in the generation of my children and their children and that gives me hope. At the same time, I continue to meditate on my own death daily and that brings me security.

I think you are on the right track. There is no need to be too attached to have your feet directly on the earth to benefit from practice. I would suggest a practice that seeks to help connect with and find balance among the elements. Depending upon your training and tradition, the elements take different forms - that's unimportant. The important part if finding in yourself that connection to each of the elements. Open yourself and quiet yourself inside. Then you have the opportunity to see and feel how you are actually a manifestation of these elements in every aspect of your being. If you are quiet and sensitive enough and patient, you may see where you may be lacking or over representing these elements and just that awareness and openness will help bring them into balance. This is simply a meditation on the elements that I've found very beneficial. If you know them you could practice this along with prayers, mantras, and mudras - or simply by itself. Enjoy

In answer to the OP's question - I have no idea. These experiences of oneness do occur. The teachings and practices of the mystics of all the wisdom traditions attempt to help us to get there - Jesuit, Sufi, Kabbalist, Bön, Buddhist, Hindu, Daoist... each in their own unique and beautiful way has developed methods for this. While I respect each of these approaches, I am not personally convinced that there is a direct relationship between doing any particular practice for any particular period of time and this awakening that you seek. Jiddu Krishnamurti saw this and, despite his warts and imperfections, tried to use this lack of certainty and security to help guide people to that very goal that he felt could not be reached with any guidance. His approach appealed to the intellect and use of rational thought to transcend itself. While it may seem paradoxical, this goal we seek is inherently paradoxical as are the methods that point to it. In my view, this state that you are looking for is already within you, within all of us, it is the foundation of who and what we are. It is obscured by all of our conditioning that has been passed down from generation to generation from time immemorial. This conditioning is very powerful and ingrained. I do believe that the practices and teachings of the mystics can open our eyes to the conditioning, to the ignorance and obscurations. Once we are aware and directing our attention to this, we have already begun the process of dismantling, cutting through, and perhaps one day transcending. I do feel that doing this type of work is worthwhile. Not necessarily because it will be successful - for the right person at the right time, it can occur in an instant or elude us for a lifetime. But at least practices that cultivate awareness and seeing through these obstacles do not continue to reinforce and strengthen the ignorance. There is a saying in taijiquan with respect to how to use the methods to beat an opponent in combat which comes from how one goes about uprooting a tree: 一搖二晃三擊 : yi yao, er huang, san ji, which means to first shake and loosen the roots, second uproot, and destabilize the foundation, third attack and destroy. I think we can look at these practices in a similar way. In the beginning we become aware of what is preventing us from connecting with what you seek, our true nature. That serves to shake and loosen the hold our ignorance has over us. Next we begin to dismantle the shell of obscuration that surrounds us and guides our every thought and action. Finally, if we are fortunate enough (some might say blessed, or having suitable karma), the walls may come tumbling down and reveal what lies underneath. As I said earlier, I'm not convinced that there is any completely reliable and reproducible method for this. I do think that the Daoist, Bön, and Buddhist methods have some degree of efficacy. I'm not familiar enough with the others to comment but I suspect that they do as well, otherwise they would have been abandoned long ago. On the other hand, I think a large part of it depends on the individual. Not only what they do but who they are, how they are put together, what produced them over generations of breeding and behavior... in a word - karma. So I don't think I can help you at all and I expect nothing from you in return. But it makes me feel quite good to know that you are aware enough to recognize that something is there and that you care. And for that, even though it may cause you enormous pain and frustration, I think you should be extremely grateful because it means that you've taken a step in the right direction and are blessed with the opportunity to try. _/\_