doc benway

I have no problem using words like alchemy and neidan to refer to a specific practice or process as in the example you cite. My comment was related more to the use of alchemy and neidan as generic terms relating to heterogeneous groups of practices. I don't find such generic usage to be useful. On the other hand, I do respect the effort to be clear in our use of terminology but in my experience such discussions are rarely productive.

A buddha has nothing to do with being superhuman, nor does a Daoist immortal. I suspect people here don't think Mo Pai is about setting paper on fire. They are responding to folks who are infatuated with videos of people who seem to be setting paper on fire. There's a difference. But I can really only speak for myself.

This is my daily practice.

Mo Pai is not about getting superpowers but those who lust after it are. What is an immortal spirit if not a superpower of sorts? Nope How does insulting the intelligence of others help you along your path? I assert that everyone participating in this discussion has the intelligence to get what Mo Pai and Daoist Alchemy are about. In fact, some of us have actually received direct training in Daoist methods from credible masters.

I practice neidan is 3 words. I make the pill of eternal youth is 7 words. It is ellipsis. I would also be cautious about applying English based linguistic and grammatical terminology to Chinese. I'm not sure that the transition is consistently applicable. Edited to add - practicing internal alchemy does not improve the "pill of eternal youth" Furthermore, you also have the pill of eternal youth in your possession, you are simply unable to access it due to faulty perspective. Both in practicing the guitar and practicing neidan or internal alchemy, what is being improved is the "I", not the object. How does this differ from saying I practice making the pill of eternal youth or I practice internal alchemy? This would beg the question have you succeeded yet? Claiming I practice something does not necessarily cause me to want to hide the fact that I have not yet mastered or completed the practice. I practice taijiquan. If asked if I have yet mastered the skill, I would have no problem simply answering the question. I think you are being presumptuous in declaring that those who use the term neidan are doing so in order to be evasive. I think it is more likely that they are simply making an alternative choice in the use of English translation of esoteric Chinese terminology. Rectification of names is a wonderful thing and in all the years I've participated in this forum I've seen no progress towards standardization of terminology. In fact, I have yet to see you define your own use of terms. My apologies if I've overlooked that. Consequently, I feel that getting bogged down in English translation of esoteric Chinese characters that most native Chinese cannot satisfactorily explain is not an effective use of our time. Discussing specific practices is more efficient and more in keeping with rectification of names than discussing the labels of heterogeneous classes of practices that defy standardization. 2nd edit - For what it's worth, I try to avoid the labels internal alchemy and neidan. I don't think they add anything to our understanding, communication, or development.

In the spirit of collaboration, as opposed to criticism - Can one find freedom even within that sickness, happiness in bondage? That is true freedom, no?

Hi Rainbowvein, Equally nice to "see" you too! My present way of thinking of and labeling the ineffable involves three inseparable components or characteristics - space, clarity, and warmth; or emptiness, awareness, and great bliss. Space is that nothingness you are pointing to - it has no beginning, no end, no boundary, no limits - it's beyond the conceptual. Clarity is that characteristic of space that is self knowing - awareness (I acknowledge that some don't like this term). Warmth is the indescribable joy, the great bliss, that is a characteristic of the inseparability or union of space and clarity. These three aspects or characteristics are not separate, they are simply conceptual perspectives convenient for communication. As always, take everything I say with a heaping tablespoon of salt, sugar, uni, or whatever antidote you prefer. Warm regards,

Space is more than "the emptiness between matter" as it also is the "emptiness" that is matter. Matter, as we perceive it, does not "take up" or "occupy" space. It IS space, as perceived through our unique sensory and interpretive apparatus. Space is not something because it cannot be defined or limited in any way; and it is not nothing because it can and does manifest everything. Yes, something can be something and still be nothingness. In fact, everything is nothingness and nothingness is everything. If you are truly interested in this topic, the Buddhist and Bön teachings are very helpful. I'll warn you, however, that independent study of the teachings can be challenging and a credible teacher is invaluable.

My opinion is yes. Joy (bliss) is one aspect of our natural state. It is always there waiting for us. When we don't experience it, it is because it is obscured, not because it is not present. Direct contact with our natural state is associated with feelings that far exceed what we generally experience as joy in our daily lives. This is why I think the word bliss is often used to label the feeling - to connote the sheer immensity.

I practice guitar on a daily basis. Guitar is an object. I practice the jian. Jian is an object. I also practice meditation daily, while less obvious an example, there are many who recognize meditation as a state of being rather than an activity. In these examples, the verb (playing... the guitar, manipulating... the jian, sitting in... meditation) is implied. In my admittedly limited expertise in the Chinese language, this practice of assuming an implied verb exists to at least the same degree it does in English. Probably much more so given the relative ambiguity inherent in communication using logographic versus alphabetic language. The primary error here, in my opinion, is to be too focused on the language and not focused enough on the practices. Rather than discuss neidan vs internal alchemy, why not discuss the specific practices you are referring to? Otherwise, I think one can waste a lot of time and energy debating concepts without ever understanding what the other party is referring to.

I think it's complicated as everyone has their own unique motivation and perspective. One common theme that I think is at play, however, is the basic tendency of the human thought process to never be satisfied with what is, as it is. There is always this drive to become something we are not, to be more, better, bigger, faster, more powerful, smarter, richer, etc... And the more extreme the imagined goal, the more exciting it is. Who wouldn't want superpowers? And there is no desire more powerful than spiritual desire. My apologies if anyone takes this comment as an insult, but It's a sign of the lack of awareness of what we already are, and how powerful and perfect that is, and a sign that we remain controlled by our thoughts, conditioning, and imagination. I also think it's a natural tendency and one that is very useful for basic survival but not so useful from a psychological, emotional, and spiritual point of view. All of the wisdom traditions I've been exposed to (including Daoist, Buddhist, and Bön) begin with encouraging and enabling the indulgence of this tendency. They exploit it, recognizing that most people are unable to let it go de novo. In Daoist methods, it often has to do with what is being discussed here - development of the energy body and "super natural" skills. In Buddhist and Bön methods, it is more related to moral and ethical development, although the energetic component is certainly there, especially in tantra. Eventually, these methods are abandoned once they reach their natural conclusion and then there is the return to the source - what we always already have been from the beginning. I think it's best to let this process run its natural course. Partly because it is probably a necessary part of our spiritual growth and partly because you generally can't do anything to change it in anyone other than yourself (and even that is a blessing) - unless, of course you happen to be a teacher and then you MIGHT influence your students. Even then, it is only the student who is ready that will be open to such a drastic change in approach.

Well said and I appreciate you sharing your experience on your path, including the obstacles. I'm still working with many issues, pride among them. There are many layers to peel away... We are very fortunate to have connected with a lineage which supports us.

If one gets a direct taste of our true nature, there is such a profound sense of connection that there is no possibility of unethical or immoral behavior. It has nothing to do with social or cultural morals and ethics. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the awakened heart/mind. Logic and rational thought are superfluous here, as are rules, standards, and philosophy. Ethics and morals are relative human concepts that vary dramatically among cultures, eras, and individuals. Awakening of the heart/mind, on the other hand, is absolute and when it is present, there can be no unethical or immoral behavior. Just my $.02

If I may add something, not as a criticism but as a collaboration - This process of deepening and stabilizing that initial "realization" involves activity, even if that activity is an active "non-doing." In this way, I do think there is value to looking at the process as realizing, which to me has somewhat of a connotation of engaging, active facilitation, and working towards something. As in "realizing" one's goals. Certainly, revelation is an equally valid label insofar as what it is we are looking for has always already been there, simply obscured. Further, there is the aspect that this process is spontaneous, out of our control, and unpredictable. There are those that work for a lifetime with no progress and others that "get it" with a whisper... On the other hand, revelation has somewhat of an implication of passivity as well as "once-off" to my ear. I like words like unfolding, growing, being, feeling, seeing, and knowing. I particularly like the image of the "wisdom wind" which clears obscurations and the light which illuminates the darkness, from the Bon liturgy. In the end, no words can capture it. Many words can point to different aspects. Great thread CT, thank you for the time and effort you put into it. (it's one of the few threads I visit lately here) _/\_ Here is a nice, brief clip that touches on the grasping point a bit. http://www.scienceandnonduality.com/the-relative-self-and-reincarnation-bob-thurman/

I think it's a fair bet that the lineage holder of the Dragon Gate sect is at high enough a level of cultivation that you could learn something valuable from him. Even if he has not reached a level that you would consider adequate, he certainly has the knowledge and the authority to teach the system. Relying on a self-proclaimed psychic and anonymous strangers on the internet to pass judgement on such an individual does not seem like the best approach to evaluating a potential teacher. If you are serious about your cultivation and finding the right teacher, I would suggest alternative ways of going about it.

I haven't read all 6 pages so I apologize if this is redundant. In a way, nothing is inherently sacred. Sanctity exists within us and our attitude and approach to people and things around us. We impute sanctity, if we are so inclined. If that approach helps support our growth and practice, then it is valuable. If that approach is an obstacle, then it should be abandoned - unless, of course we are ready to see that obstacle for what it is, an opportunity for growth.

What do you make of the concept of Wu Wei? Eating and drinking do not go against the flow of creation and yet both require knowledge and energy on our part. As does procreation. We are all already masters - we are simply unaware of our divinity. You can get farther through non-effort than through effort. The one exerting the effort is exactly what is obscuring that which is already perfect.

I agree and disagree with you. Fully awakened beings manifest the perfection of body, speech, and mind. Any "anger" that you project onto them is yours. If they appear angry, perhaps it is wrathful compassion you see. If it is truly anger, then they have work left to do. Clearly the way to deal with anger and other poisons is not to deal with the poison but with the one who is manifesting the effects. The reason I posted that quote was for the commentary on our perception of gods and demons.

I'll disagree with some other advice you've received and say that it sounds as if you would benefit from some credible and skillful guidance. There is a masterful Bon Buddhist teacher in the Bay area - Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. He travels constantly, teaching mainly in retreat format around the world - mostly in the Americas and Europe. I don't know if he does any 1:1 teaching and I don't know how much he teaches locally. He offers both secular (3 Doors Program) and more traditional, "religious" (Bon Buddhism) approaches. He offers many free learning resources on his website (ligmincha.org) and is currently doing a year long free monthly webinar teaching based on practices related to Tibetan soul retrieval and the 5 elements. No one method is right for everyone but I can attest to the efficacy of the Bon methods in my own. The teachings are particularly effective for dealing with the out of control thoughts and emotions. In the beginning you may feel as if you need direct personal guidance and a lot of "hand holding" - not true. If you are open to the practices and put in the time and effort, you will find that you need relatively little direct guidance. Good luck.

I got a new mattress this year made by saatva. It's very firm and I'm very happy with the quality, price, easy of acquisition, and customer service. And my back feels great.

In my experience and opinion this is nonsense. First, neigong cultivation does not go against creation and the normal flow of energy. That is simply a mistaken concept. It goes against maladaptive practices and habits but not against our nature. Second, nothing is nothing more natural and consistent with our basic nature than sleep. It is an essential part of our lives with or without cultivation. Certainly, we need less if we cultivate effectively because meditation is as or more restful to the brain as sleep. Perhaps at high levels of mastery, very little sleep is needed. It is still natural and supportive. If we feel as if we are gaining something while awake and losing it during sleep, that is simply a conceptual construct. Certainly if our sleep is dysfunctional we may feel negative consequences of that while awake. It is important that our sleep be healthy and restful (eg. not altered by drugs, diet, electronic addiction, psycho-emotional issues, etc...). The best sleep practice is dream yoga - learning the art of lucid dreaming and using that lucidity for cultivation practices. We get ourselves so confused and distanced from our true nature through intellectual games and belief. What is important is trusting that what we are is just that. Trying to be something other than what we are is the problem we face. All of the above is simply my opinion.

"Do not think much about demons, spirits and the like. In reality, there are no gods and demons. A god is compassion and a demon is self-grasping. From self-grasping, the negative emotions arise, and they are the cause of all suffering, for others and yourself. This is the actual demon, there is no other demon apart from that. If you want to eliminate that demon, you have to cultivate love and compassion. Ultimately, gods and demons are the same, as all beings have a single ground of mind. If from this mind temporarily self-grasping arises, you can label it a demon. It is very important to understand the levels of becoming a bodhisattva. For this, you must first understand the suffering nature of samsara. Everything in samsara has the nature of suffering, only when one realizes the nature of mind, attains enlightenment, one will be free from suffering. If you want to be free from suffering, you must be free from self-grasping, as all suffering comes from wishing for one's own happiness. The only way to be free from self-grasping is to cultivate compassion. This is the root of all happiness. It is most important that you develop love for all beings. If you have cultivated love, you will have the power to overcome suffering. Even if you experience some temporary suffering circumstance, you will understand that this is the result of your own actions of self-grasping and you are now purifying this negative karma. If you now cultivate bodhicitta, you will not suffer again in the future. So if you experience some suffering now, you must understand that this is the result of your own actions, and is not caused by anyone else. If you understand this, you will accept your suffering and avoid negative actions to avoid future suffering. For example, the cause of the hell realms is anger, the cause of the hungry spirit realm is greed, each of the six negative emotions is the seed for the six realms of samsara. If you find these seeds inside your mind, you must work hard to eliminate them each and every day through sustaining mindfulness. You must recognize the emotions upon arising and see its fault. Then, you must sustain mindfulness and not fall under the power of the emotion, not act out on it. Then gradually, the negative emotions will disappear. Always remember this. This is the root of all practice." H.E. Garchen Rinpoche Translation Ina Bieler

Om Ma Tri Mu Ye Sa Le Du _/\_

Some suggestions - The first step is to learn to actively listen to silence. We are accustomed to listen to sounds but not silence. Start by listening to the silence in your own head. Listen for the silence that exists when the internal voices are quiet. Gradually become familiar with that process. Once you get a handle on how to listen to the silence it is time to actually hear the silence. Hearing the silence is connecting with the silence and remaining in contact with that silence in a very active, engaged way. Hearing silence is to listening to silence as tasting chocolate is to looking at chocolate. It's a completely different aspect of the experience. Once we listen and hear the silence actively, it is time to let go of the effort and relax into the silence, settle and stabilize in the experience of hearing the silence of our internal speech without effort. When that has stabilized, you can begin to allow the thoughts to enter, and even the internal dialogue, while still maintaining a connection with that silence from which they arise and to which they return. With time it can feel as if there is no difference between the silence and the sounds, they are of the same fabric. Once that is stable, the same process can be applied to the external sounds. The external sounds are a bit more challenging than the internal voices but the same process works. What a wonderful practice it is!

It's nice to see that you found a teacher that speaks clearly to you, that is truly a blessing. Your post brings up a very important point - We must constantly work to refine our view and measure success by how we are manifesting that in our lives. At this point in my life, it is more important to maintain a sense of openness than it is to pursue a sense of understanding. When we think we understand, we may close ourselves off to possibilities. At some point what was once understanding may become an obstacle. If we are able to remain open, we have more opportunity for growth and expansion.