doc benway

You made me an offer I couldn't resist... Me too

If that's not a statement of faith, I don't know what is.

It's not that clearcut in the scientific community. There are those that classify evolution as fact, as theory, and as both. But that's mostly a matter of definition of terms - not worth that much time and energy to debate, IMO.

I would suggest that it takes a very special quality of mind to awaken. I suspect that spending a month in skillful 'self-inquiry' is more likely to move one along the path than most other activities one can engage in. Although sometimes I wonder if anything we do really has any effect at all.... or is it simply a matter of karma, blessing, or delusion?

I agree that the scientific method is powerful indeed! And scientific theories and views are still only as stable as the axioms and data they are founded upon. Major revolutions in scientific thought occur regularly. On the other hand, there are elements in religious traditions and practices that are quite internally consistent, empirical, and have significant predictive value. And when one adopts a practice and sees consistent and predictable changes in one's life as a result, there is nothing more empirically convincing. I think that we can take advantage of the best of both worlds without compromising either, provided that we are open. I listened to part of a talk this morning on the development of Mahayana Buddhism from a Theravada perspective which basically framed it in a negative light, making it seem gratuitous and without solid foundation. But if you look at the spread and success of the Mahayana schools, I would argue that we are seeing an evolution, a process of selection. And if you accept the axiom that Buddhism attempts to apply an empirical method to the problem of human suffering and behavior since its very inception, one could even consider this 'evolution' to be more of a 'revolution' based on an empirical method. Not as far removed from science as we might normally imagine perhaps, but that's just me and my random musings. I appreciate the good spirit of this discussion.

As a matter of fact, evolution is a theory.

I propose that the belief that "a tree is a tree regardless of what I call it" is a type of faith. You have faith in your powers of perception and interpretation. You have faith that you understand what 'tree' is simply because you've seen several and put a label on it.

No? You may want to look a bit more closely - certainly your idea of faith is directly related to it. I suspect that most Atheists have as much faith in science as Religionists have in God (maybe more).

As is often the case on this forum, we are not really talking about the same thing. Buying a lottery ticket is not based on faith but hope, I see a difference. Expecting magic and fairies to solve one's problems is not faith either, but perhaps a mixture of hope and belief,... and denial. Yes, if we want to change, I agree that we need to take responsibility and be the engine of that change. I would classify faith more along the lines of the confidence you feel in the authenticity and value of the Laozi and Zhuangzi. I know that's presumptuous of me, but I expect that would be something fairly close to faith.

Actually, I don't. I just asked the question... I keep an open mind but I won't claim to know how animals feel or what motivates them. Sure, so does displaced desire, urinary stream, bullets, and driving... If one doesn't genuinely feel it, there's no forcing it. How do you define the difference between having faith and knowing what needs to be done?

Can we call it faith that allows the hatchling to jump off a tree branch and salmon to jump the rapids? I think there is an aspect of faith that is non-verbal and we may share it with more beings than we imagine depending on how we choose to define the label.

I think there is a third category. Reason, emotion, and ? If we let go of engaging reason, the narrator inside is left to be as it is, and we let go of engaging emotion, mediated by judgement - attachment and aversion; there is another level of experience where we can recognize, and rest in, non-engagement. There can be a realization then which is a source of enormous faith that I don't think is related to rational thought or emotion. Not sure what to label it, as anything will be inaccurate... I like the Tibetan word for it - Kuntuzangpo (all good)

I think that true faith is also associated with an experiential precursor. A feeling, very solid and deep, of the truth of something, a foundation for trust. I suspect that people without that feeling find it hard to understand and accept. But if you feel it, it can be very real - no different than knowing.

www.teafromtaiwan.com is a good source.

What else could it possibly be?

It's presumptuous to think that you fully understand the "normal traditional scriptural way to view karma." Do you understand it the same way a fully attained lama does? Or exactly as someone from a different country and decade understand it? You only see what you have the capacity to see based on your personal knowledge and life experience. I think it's safe to say they are both limited. Belief and dis-belief are a lazy way to approach the truth. And I'm not pointing the finger at anyone more than myself! The Buddhist method is to investigate for ourselves in our own personal experience and frame of reference. It is an empirical and scientific method: If I act in a genuinely loving and supportive way with others, how do I feel? How do others respond? What tends to come of such actions? If I act in a hateful, hurtful, and destructive manner, how do I feel? How do others respond? What tends to come of such interactions? The human condition is so complex that we will not always see a 1:1 positive correlation between action and outcome in our limited mental capacity and span of time. If we "believe" in science, I think the evidence would show that the positive and negative outcomes are related to the corresponding behavior over time. If we "have faith" in our gurus, we trust their experience and teachings regarding this correlation. Rather than invoke and debate concepts like reincarnation, we simply need to look at this in our own lives. If it is instructive and proves to be valuable, we cultivate it. If not, we let it go and the Buddhist path is probably not an auspicious one for us at this moment in this life. Are there other lives? Certainly, yes.... we see them all around us past, present, and future. Our unique personal understanding of reincarnation is based on many factors, primarily those related to our direct experience and understanding of the nature of who and what we are(n't). As that changes and is perfected, it can change one's momentary perspective on self and also reincarnation. It's fascinating to watch how we cling to words and concepts like a drowning man clings to a floating log. It's so restricting, so limiting, and yet the illusion of security that this gives us is powerful. For me, better to let go of labels, definitions, and concepts - let go of belief! That is a beautiful thing... Equally important to let go of dis-belief! That is just as much an obstacle. Better for me to rest in a state of unknowing and openness and simply observe without interference. This is the most fertile ground for realization. Once realization dawns, unknowing is extinguished; belief and dis-belief are unnecessary. The need for security vanishes in the light of knowing. Faith

There's no need for anyone to believe in karma or reincarnation, in my opinion. If the concepts resonate or make sense in some way, if they help us to move along the path in a positive direction, that is beautiful. If they don't make sense and don't help us along, best to let go and look elsewhere for guidance.

Thanks for the update Bubbles, breaking promises can be healthy

We'll simply have to agree to disagree. Karma has nothing to do with belief, in my opinion, it is simply the direct observation that actions have relatively predictable consequences. The Buddhists (and others) certainly have developed it into a very complex and comprehensive view but that is not necessary to engage with if it doesn't fit our view of things. One does not even need to believe in reincarnation to see the workings of karma, it's evident in everything we do.

I'm a bit surprised that you listed Karma among the things you cannot change. Karma is simply the actions you take, the choices you make, which under your control as much as anything. Those actions have consequences, often unexpected, which are directly related to your actions, hence there is some degree of control there. My point really is that from the perspective of the natural state, there is nothing that is not a process of mind. Nothing is more substantial than mind as it is mind that creates the illusion of substance. Wonderful post - I would agree that this is a very good word to try and capture the meaning of faith as I use it. I once read a distinction between belief and faith that I think came from Osho. It went something like this - Belief is the fervent hope that an explanation one has not personally verified is the truth. Faith is the willingness to let go of belief and accept that what remains is the truth.

"Just as taking refuge opens the gateway to all teachings and practices, it is faith that opens the gateway to taking refuge." The chapter on taking refuge in Words of My Perfect Teacher by Patrul Rinpoche has an extensive discussion of the central importance of faith in Tibetan Buddhism. That said, it is certainly an illusion of the mind - from the perspective of the natural state, what isn't?

Time's Arrow and Archimedes' Point by Huw Price comes to mind. Very interesting book but not an easy read.

Some unsolicited input, FWIW... When we decide to pursue a path of liberation it is because we recognize that the ordinary, thinking mind needs help, it is not to be trusted, it does not have the answers we are looking for. Then we use that very same mind to try to figure out which path to take... ? Much better, IMO, to try and connect with a teacher that feels right, someone to whom we feel (rather than think) we have a connection to, put our trust in them and see where it takes us. I think that the specific path is less important than the teacher, the student, and their relationship, particularly in Tibetan Buddhism. Good luck and blessings on your search!

I sometimes wonder about how necessary it is to do specific practices to cultivate the warmth vs simply allowing it manifest and blossom spontaneously. I've come across those to whom it seems to come easily and naturally. Some seem to have much more resistance. In the Mahayana, there are quite a few formal practices for developing this so I've got to imagine that the masters felt that the practices were necessary and valuable, at least for some. Cultivating bodhicitta has a very central role in the dzogchen methods both in the ngondro and in the more advanced, formal practice. Ultimately, the idea is that the bodhicitta is no longer a practice, but rather an expression of one's life. In my experience, the people who struggle with it tend to be those who are more focused on the intellectual study and not committed enough to the experiential practices. The key for me is the knowledge that I am the same as everyone else, on so many levels. All people want to be comfortable, secure, and avoid pain and other unpleasant experiences. There but for the workings of karma (or the grace of God, some like to say), I could be in any other person's situation. Everyone we meet has people who love them and that they love. Anyone could be our child, sibling, or parent. We all make foolish decisions. If you believe in reincarnation, everyone you meet has been your mother or son at some point. And so on... Most people are so deeply conditioned that they basically go through life like a robot, having very little possibility of waking up and making meaningful choices. It's like they're on a roller coaster and can't get off or change direction because they don't even know they're on it. So when they do something irritating or infuriating, I remind myself of the fact that they've not had the opportunity to awaken and grow beyond their social and cultural programming and I feel more sympathy and less anger. And it goes much, much deeper than that. We are truly and literally one indivisible organism-environmental system. No living organism has lived or will ever live outside of an environment. No environment is recognizable or identifiable as such in the absence of a perceptive organism. Not only do scientists recognize this but people who have direct non-dual experience do as well at an experiential level. Direct non-dual experience can lead one to absolute certainty regarding the connection of all sentient beings and this serves as the foundation of bodhicitta. If that happens, the day to day part is much easier. Otherwise, I do think there is value in the formal practices. The masters put a lot of emphasis on such practices so there's got to be some value there. I suspect that the more we practice these things, even if it feels artificial or contrived in the beginning, the more we become familiar with the real thing and the more like these things are to manifest in our lives. Beyond that, I think that it boils down to making the choice to be nice, be civil, be patient, and supportive. We can be as concerned with others achieving their objectives as we are at achieving our own. We can choose to serve others, rather than serve our own desires. So many different ways to work on this but it boils down to committing to the 4 immeasurables. First and foremost, accept them. They are unavoidable, at least for me, and I can only speak to what I know personally. Be kind to yourself when it happens, take it with a sense of humor rather than frustration. When I find myself worrying about something, I thank the narrator in my head for his concern. When I find myself getting distracted or carried along in my head for the thousandth time in an hour, I laugh at how ridiculously persistent that narrator is. When someone or something causes me to get off track, I remind myself that it has nothing to do with them, it is simply my misstep and an opportunity to continue to grow. One thing that can be very effective is to cultivate the ability to use the recognition of these 'destabilizations' as a cue. The first step of course is awareness, and once aware we simply need to reconnect and continue. The more habitual this becomes, the more quickly we are able to get back on track. If we link that cue to a specific practice, it can be very powerful. An example is the Tibetan practice of dream yoga. Not only is there a night time practice but the practice goes on 24/7. Throughout the day, whenever something generates a strong emotion or reaction we learn to use that as a cue to take certain measures that lead us toward becoming more effective in our dreaming practice. One way to practice this is these 3 steps: 1) recognize (that we have lost the connection), 2) reconnect (re-establish the mindful connection), and 3) continue (resume the practice, whatever that my be). Over time it improves but we really need some sort of fuel to drive that never-ending commitment, that's very challenging.

to heal -- or get lost the look in my puppy's eye haunts me to this day...