doc benway

This is what the teachings seem to converge on - the non-separation: Dependent origination / emptiness - everything is dependent on every other thing, nothing exists inherently or independently (of itself) Karma - every action is dependent on every other action, no action exists without cause and effect The Tibetans have a term they use for this extensively in the dzogchen teachings - thig le nyag cig - which literally translates to single sphere and implies wholeness, perfection, non-duality, completeness

Who doesn't?! As my wife likes to say, I am a work in progress... Yes, it's fascinating how many similarities we can find among disparate traditions. Trinities are found in many ancient traditions - Babylonia, Sumeria, India, Tibet, Greece, Egypt, and others... Day to day life - I think this is the key. Our informal practice (off the cushion) is more important than our formal practice, IMO.

Not at all quantitative or objective, but my measure of the "success" of such practices is whether or not it is helping me to live a more balanced, stable, and fulfilling life. A few things that I think one should see from these practices include - - being less quick to anger, feeling more happiness and contentment - better ability to accept the difficult and painful things we are unable to change or avoid, and tolerate challenging people - less dependent on material distractions and desires - less prone to drug and alcohol use and abuse - less tendency toward illness and an ability to recover more quickly from illness and injury

I think those comments came from the fact that I see and have myself experienced how easy it is to misunderstand emptiness, especially if we are focused on intellectual study and understanding. In our formal and informal practice, that's less of a problem since we are working with awareness, perceptions, feelings, and so on, rather than concepts. Whether these things are "real" or "empty" or whatever other words we use to describe them from a metaphysical perspective, there's no denying that they are with us (at one level there ARE us) and it is basically what we have to work with, along with our intellect, of course. But when we are working primarily with the conceptual, I think we can lose sight of the tangible (sic). The basis of what I mention above is the idea of the sku gsum (Tibetan) or trikaya (Sanskrit) or three bodies. You may well know more about these than I do but I'll give a brief (and hopefully, reasonably accurate) description. These three aspects of existence can be considered a description of Buddhahood itself. Bön sku or Body of Bön (dharmakaya) is the emptiness of the natural state and is described as having the attributes of space and the sky is often used as an example in the teachings (the Bönpos have been referred to as sky worshipers). Rdzogs sku or Body of Perfection (sambhogakaya) is related to clarity or luminosity and the infinite potential for manifestation. Sprul sku or Body of Emanation (nirmanakaya) is related to energy and movement. The three are inseparable and inter-related at all levels. Our discussion of them as separate is artificial. In practice, these three are related to the three doors of body, speech, and mind. One of my practices involves resting in the stillness of body, silence of speech, and spaciousness of mind. The stillness of body is a doorway to the wisdom of the dharmakaya - emptiness. This is not an intellectual understanding but a connection that develops over time with inner stillness and then, in turn, with it's inseparability from the stillness that surrounds us. It's often referred to as space. Similarly, when we gain stability resting in silence of speech (including the internal narrator), this is a doorway to the wisdom of the sambhogakaya - clarity, spontaneous presence, knowing (dare I use the word rigpa?). It's often referred to as light or luminosity. Finally, spaciousness of the mind involves cultivation of opening, allowing, embracing, non-interference, feeling oneself as the space that one occupies, and so on, and this is related to the wisdom of the nirmanakaya which is the energy of manifestation. The direct experienced is often referred to as warmth or bliss. Others may have a better understanding of these things or see them differently and I welcome any corrections or comments.

All true

Sounds like you are a committed practitioner. Bringing mindfulness into human interaction certainly takes practice! Disclaimer - I am not a teacher, scholar, or expert. Take everything I saw with a generous helping of salt. Clarity is essentially awareness but the specific aspect of awareness that is knowing as opposed to the awareness associated with the 6 senses and subject/object duality, it is also referred to as clear light and is what permits self-awareness. Warmth is much harder to explain without a common experiential ground. It is essentially the feeling of well-being associated with the experience of truth. As we rest deeper and deeper in what is without the intrusion of sense forms, that sense of belonging, being home, feeling supported, unconditional love - all this and more is spontaneously present. It's often referred to as bliss. In Buddhism, there are too fundamental errors - as we study sutra and the thinking mind wrestles with concepts related to reality it can deviate towards nihilism or eternalism. Nihilism is the error we make when our view is that of non-existence, mistaking emptiness for non-existence. In fact, the emptiness is fully alive with potential. Can you be more clear on which part this refers to?

Doesn't that conflict with emptiness?

Funny - you're seeing eternalism in my posts and Tibetan Ice is seeing nihilism. I guess I'm all over the place, hopefully I'll eventually come to rest somewhere in the middle. Your reminder of the empty nature of things is welcome. The proper seeing you refer to is the awakening of bodhicitta. That is truly a "wonder of wonders."

I'm quite glad that I knew nothing then, had a good teacher, followed his teachings, and didn't read much about it or mix styles and practices at the recommendation of my teacher.

My current practice is in the Mahayana tradition which, as Apech points out above, embraces a non-dual view. And as you alluded to above, regardless of concepts, words, and scripture, the diligent practitioner will encounter issues and experiences related to subject/object duality/non-duality in the course of their development. In my limited experience and understanding, the concepts of non-duality, karma, dependent origination, and emptiness are all inextricably related. They may seem different on the surface but as we experience and understand them on deeper levels, they are not isolated. One thing to be careful of, in my opinion, is that scripture speaks extensively about emptiness but tends to leave out the fact that the emptiness has aspects of clarity and warmth that are inseparable. Emptiness without clarity and warmth would be a nihilistic view. The clarity and warmth are best appreciated through direct experience (practice), whereas it is beneficial to 'exercise' the intellect with attempts at understanding emptiness. So I think it's important to remind ourselves of the inseparable nature of emptiness, clarity, and warmth lest we fall into the error of nihilism when we are studying sutra. The Bonpos speak of this as the union or inseparability of space, light, and warmth.

Thank you for your comments. Peace

Nicely stated, yes - when words and concepts come into the picture we are already in the realm of subject/object duality. This is why I've been taught to only take discussion and thought so far, or should I say - as far as I'm personally capable of taking it - then it is time to let go and simply practice. There's a quote I love from a very different perspective that I've posted before - "And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." - John O'Donohue The conceptual side is difficult for all and yet definitely worthwhile, after all the thinking mind is our only tool, hence the endless courtyard debates. The Buddhists have that down to a science. But don't expect the answer to be what you would expect. It's not about the answer but the question, the process. The answer is dead and the question, full of life. Life is process, not stuff, after all. I wouldn't try to negate or contradict your statement "everything is an experience," nor would I call it a wrong view. The tricky part for me are the words everything and experience - when you list what goes into everything, you can only list experiences and concepts and the word experience defines an experiencer. The (rhetorical) question is - what is beyond that? Trying to answer that or think about that is already interfering and dividing, hence the basic pith instruction for practice - "...leave it as it is..." There's also a nice thread going on right now on emptiness. And, for me, one of the best books on this subject is The Journey to Certainty by Anyen Rinpoche. Highly accessible (except for one or two tough chapters) and really takes one to the intersection conceptual and non-conceptual. edited for spelling

Some ideas - At least based on what you wrote above, you already hear the inner voice. Are you being truthful with yourself in this very post? Are you not talking to these people because you're lying to yourself or because you're insecure? Certainly qigong and such practices may help center and balance but I think one thing you could try to further cultivate is awareness. When you don't do something and tell yourself an excuse, simply notice that, as you did above. No need to try to change it, simply take notice as it is happening. Pause for a moment, watch what you are doing and then ask yourself if that is what you really want to do. If not, that is your opportunity to take a different action - having the courage to do that is where the qigong may help but I think that awareness, recognition, and taking a moment to see how what you are telling yourself compares to what you want in life or what your values would have you do - that's the secret. Just making this post shows that you are already somewhat aware of what's going on - no better first step, follow it through. Good luck

Wonderful - glad that helps. So the emptiness here is the lack of subject, lack of object, lack of distinction. It cannot be experience as that implies subject, nor can it be said to not exist because we live our practice and see its effects. Hence the four-fold negation... Sutra study is magnificent - we are blessed to have this opportunity!

Thanks for the reply, the last line sums it up. My misunderstanding.

Perceptions (recognitions) and formations (thoughts/volition) arise and establish duality. Perception and thought imply the dichotomy of perceiver/perceived and thinker/thought. This the foundation for judgement - satisfactory/unsatisfactory, like/dislike, good/bad ===> dukkha A simple practice that I find useful is the following. Anytime a strong emotion or feeling arises, pleasant or unpleasant, try to notice how it is created by the existence of a sense of identity. If it is work related, it generally is linked to my identification with my role in my job. If it is relationship related, it is linked to my identification with my role as a father, lover, or son, and so on. At a more subtle level this phenomenon occurs with all perception and volition. That sound is sweet, that is too loud, this thought takes me here and that one there. It's all grasping at some level. When we are able to let go of the identification, the judgement of desirable vs undesirable no longer has a frame of reference and is meaningless. Not sure if that's at all useful. Good luck in your studies.

Can you clarify this statement? It sounds as if you feel that Buddhism will cause Ryan to suffer. It sounds very bitter and sarcastic but I may be misunderstanding you.

[edit to clarify] Seeker and 3bob - I think this is a worthwhile point of discussion. When someone connects with a teaching that stirs something deep inside for the first time, it can be extraordinarily powerful and can lead them to make some impulsive changes. Buddhism can occasionally have that effect, especially when the newcomer has never been religious or felt the true meaning of things like prayer, devotion, or trust in something "higher" than the mundane in their life. If they really get a glimpse of their true nature or simply feel a deeper level of love and connection for the first time, it can be life changing. I think it's important to remind people who have this experience that the intensity is generally transient. Quite a few folks make extreme changes in their lives which they later regret. When the surge ebbs, they find that they haven't really changed all that much and the same old issues and problems are following them wherever they are. Some have left families, sold everything, left jobs, and while that's not always a bad thing it can be quite destabilizing. For most people, it is probably better to begin to take some teachings and to find a way to integrate them gradually into their lives as they are. Over time, this will lead to a more stable, lasting, and genuine transformation and, in the long run, may be better for them than taking the extreme path. When we begin to see positive changes in our lives, especially if they are abrupt, we get this impression that if we make certain changes we will transcend samsara overnight and find nirvana. It simply not true, as long as we live we are subjected to ups and downs, the struggles and pain, we live in samsara. We need to welcome and incorporate these changes but not lose perspective, otherwise we will face disappointment that often leads to bitterness and premature abandonment of the path. The fact that Ryan is beginning to explore the possibility of practicing Buddhism and is already looking at things like long term commitments and major lifestyle changes points to how many of us are really looking for something powerful and transformative in our lives. This is not in any way a criticism of Ryan, I think it's a beautiful and inspiring thing and is one of the (few) things I love about this site - the passion and enthusiasm. But those characteristics need to be tempered and balanced. The other point worth considering is that there are quite a few young, impressionable, and sometimes unstable folks participating in these discussions. I don't mean to include Ryan in that description but quite a few folks like that have come and gone in the past.

Hi Ryan, FWIW, some comments about your OP - If this is the case, pursuing some teachings, in person, from a credible teacher may be worth your time. Books are wonderful but not the same, IMO. There is no need to over think it and struggle with the idea of vows and samaya and so forth. If the teachings touch you, all of that will fall into place naturally. If not, it will be clear and you will look elsewhere. I agree with you here. Well established traditions and lineages have figured out a lot of things that can help someone along the way. You still need to do the work yourself but having some guidance is a good thing for most people. The Tibetan Buddhist method has been developed and refined by countless practitioners over a long period of time. They've already done much of the trial and error work for you. That said, it is not for everyone and not everyone who adopts it is successful. One of the ingredients you are referring to is exactly what you have an aversion to - guru yoga. It helps to cultivate the trust and devotion which are the fuel that keeps people going when the going gets tough, both on the spiritual path and in life. As Bubbles alluded to, it is widely misunderstood. The guru is the very same teacher we are appealing to when we eschew all paths and choose to be on our own. The teacher is the essence of our being, the nature of reality, the nature of mind - the Tibetans call it Kuntuzangpo which translates to "all good." The human guru is the living embodiment or representative of that, insofar that they embody the fruition of the practices in their actions. If they do not, look elsewhere. Union with the guru is simply following their lead in an effort to recognize and express that very essence in ourselves. Like you, I had a strong aversion to religious and spiritual authority for most of my life. I found a teacher and path that changed that. The reason it changed was that I saw the effect of the view and practices for myself in my own life and that effect was profound. Regarding moral conduct, if you make a personal connection to the teachings, that will take care of itself. Either you will see and feel the reason to make changes in your life and actions or you will not and move on. The Tibetans have always been meat eaters - veggies don't grow well at altitude. Many now in diaspora in India and around the world have adopted vegetarian diets but that is a very recent development. Many also drink a bit of alcohol during certain ceremonies to demonstrate to themselves that they are not too attached to the restrictions. If you are drawn deeply into the practices, you will naturally let go of drugs and alcohol as they are simply too much of an interference. In terms of which Buddhist approach to adopt, I think they are all wonderful, as are most spiritual traditions when taught by an accomplished master who walks the walk. More than which approach to pursue, I think it is much more important to make a deep, heartfelt connection with the right teacher. That is where the "juice" is. I agree with Apech - if you are questioning whether to get involved, don't jump into any formal commitments - you're simply not ready for that and it can have a negative effect under those circumstances. But it certainly wouldn't hurt to go to a weekend retreat or something along those lines, get your feet wet, and see if it is a good fit. And you may need to try a few different groups to find the right fit. No way you can really make an informed decision about such an important step through books, videos, and discussion with others. You need to see and feel it for yourself if you want to do the possibility justice. Once you have put a reasonable amount of time into thinking about and analyzing the question, let it go completely. If you already have a meditative practice, continue that, quiet the monkey mind and trust that the causes and conditions will either come together to bring you to the right Buddhist teacher, or they will not. Warm regards and good luck on your decision.

Yes, among other things. Anything that affects your choices and actions leaves traces. The definition of karma is exactly "our own doing" Karma, along with all experience and reality itself, exists in our mind. How could anything exist anywhere else but in our own mind? That is a concept that is closely associated with the traditions that embrace karma, in one way or another. If I murder someone and eventually make peace with that choice and let go of the concept of "karma" (which I believe you are using inaccurately) in my mind, do I (and my victim) not still pay a price? Karma literally means action, not intention. While intention is related to action, that is a different field of study, I think. Action is associated with consequence. The sum total of all actions and inter-actions is associated with the condition we find ourselves in. Each of these players and plays is inseparably related to each other and all contribute to the web. That is karma. You are speaking more of intention and perhaps even implying some judgement and morality, I think, although I apologize if I am reading too much into your post. One tricky aspect to karma is that the definition, like the concept itself, is elusive and complex. We each color it with our bias and conditioning and then accept or reject it. It's a very simply observation, really - Do something harmful, harm is likely to come of it. Do something loving, love is likely to come of it. Your choices, along with those of all other people in all different times, lead right to where you are. It can sometimes be experienced just like that in a very intense, nearly unbearable way - When you can see all of the little steps that have led you to this moment here and now, in such excruciating detail, and you might see how so many of the people around you were contributing. Such a rich and complex web yet incredibly flexible and responsive. Magnificent!

Wonderful expression! Similarly, for me at least, Buddhism is the supreme ultimate science of the human mind and heart. And if we practice either method we eventually see that all of the energies of the world are inseparable from the human mind and heart. Consequently, both avenues are valid and comprehensive. If you exchange world for mind above, it fits nicely with the Buddhist line as well...

I'm a yang metal rat Cool

I've read one or two of Jeff's books. He has a fairly clear style and seems to have had direct contact with non-dual experience. I agree with CT's criticism. Some people need guidance and some don't. Some flourish in one style of teaching and others need something different. I advocate embracing whatever works for the individual rather than casting aspersions at a long standing and proven system like Jeff does in that first quote. If you like his work, you may also want to look at Steven Harrison's books - I particularly like "The Question to Life's Answers" and his book on education, "The Happy Child." In general, I think that the Non-Dual teachers like Harrison and Foster are particularly attractive to folks who prefer a secular approach. The main problem I have with them is that they tend to simply present their view of non-dual experience and that's that. If you get it, wonderful, if not, is there anything there to try and help that process? I haven't seen much of that. What about what to do with our lives to further deepen and stabilize that non-dual awakening and what to do with it? I haven't seen too much in that area either. For me, the approach that he criticizes above, that of working directly with a guru (spiritual friend) and credible lineage, is much more rich and comprehensive. These old traditions are full of practices that can help guide us in the right direction and they can give us a lot of support and guidance in terms of what to do with and in life after awakening occurs. It's more than just chopping wood, IMO... But that's just my personal bias. I support whatever works for any given individual.

I disagree P. Forgiveness is not about the other, it is about oneself. Forgiveness is very liberating. It allows us to look at that part of our self that feels hurt or wronged, and put it in its proper perspective. Whatever part of us that feels offended is an illusion and is the source of our suffering. As long as one holds a grudge, bears animosity, it is restricting, limiting, and toxic. As Maya Angelou said, "Bitterness is like a cancer. It eats upon the host." Forgiveness is a blessing to the one who forgives and does not, in any way, absolve the other of responsibility. Just my way of looking at it..

My $.02 - People are spiritual, not practices. Practices have no inherent spirituality, they are just frameworks and labels. You can find the most profound realization through shoveling shit and can gain nothing from the most profound spiritual practices if you don't approach them properly. The degree to which taiji and bagua can yield spiritual results probably depends more on the mind you bring to them and that has a lot to do with how you are taught. I've practiced and taught both and for my own spiritual growth and sustenance I practice and recommend meditation.