doc benway

I've been also following this since his stroke. The Miracle of Mindfulness was my first taste of Buddhism. What a beautiful man and beautiful life! His words and actions have favorably affected the lives of countless people and will continue to do so even when he is no longer breathing.

this thread puts me in mind of the wonderful King Missile song, Jesus Was Way Cool A Buddha version would be way cool

Spiritual music I enjoy - Arvo Pärt - Te Deum and Arbos Gabriel Fauré - Requiem Mass Max Bruch - Kol Nidrei for cello For me any music can be spiritual, these all happen to have some religious overtones... I don't really care whether or not I separate the two.

In my opinion, expectations are a setup for disappointment, aversion, and attachment. There is a difference between expectations and aspirations. I do not need to have an expectation to do things, to want to do things, to be in a relationship. Particularly in relationships, I think they have more negative than positive consequences. An expectation is essentially putting a condition on people and things, making a judgement. Much better to be true to oneself and one's choices and actions without being too concerned with the associated hopes and desires.

I gave up news several years ago. Thinking has its place but we do way more than we need, most of us.

That's the problem... We thing way too much

How certain are we that it ever left? I think this is a really valuable area of inquiry that manitou and others are pointing to. An analogy of this is space. It is difficulty for us to conceptualize "absence" but not only is there empty space but there is full space. While we feel that solid objects "take up" space - the space remains there along with the object that appears to be occupying it. In fact, the "solid object" is that space, it is simply that our sensory apparatus that permits us to see, hear, feel, taste, and so on, defines the energetic content of that space in ways that make it seem to us as solid. It is similar to silence, silence seems to be filled by sound but the silence remains there always, behind the sound, hosting the sound, sound is silence unless there is a tympanic membrane to vibrate connected to neurons that transmit signals to a brain for interpretation. In a similar way, while we are dreaming our life, we are really never separate from that which is the essence of both life and non-life.

What is an example of an Objective Truth?

Quoted in the hope that discussion and debate in these forums could someday exemplify the ideal dwai is pointing out. _/\_

Lately I've been liking Kuntuzangpo - literally translates as all good It's the word the Tibetans use to described the primordially pure nature of mind

Another way of putting this is, how do things exist in the absence of consciousness? Or, in order to avoid the debate about existence vs non-existence, what are things like in the absence of consciousness?

Pretty sad to see spiritual words and concepts hijacked and misused for personal gain. But then again, that is certainly nothing new. Folks who are of the mind to do whatever it takes to "get ahead" will do just that. If they are convinced that practicing compassion and generosity to those less fortunate will help them achieve their goal, that might not be such a bad thing - certainly better than the alternative. Clearly these folks don't understand karma, nor do they understand the relationship between spirituality and material wealth. Like all folks in the business world, they latch onto concepts and buzz-words for as long as they help them achieve their goals. What counts is not what spirituality does for you when you are successful but when you are lost, I hope that their new found "spirituality" is there for them in the end, when all of that material wealth is of no value whatsoever...

I think that wondering "why" is a peculiar characteristic of the movement of human thought being that it is rooted in speech and conceptualization. If thought can answer such questions, even with labels and concepts, it is able to rest in some illusion of security, at least until the next "why" pops up... Clearly this pattern has evolutionary and teleological advantage. I wonder if other sentient beings ask why? I've gotten less attached to focusing on such questions because I suspect that there are things that transcend our ability and tendency to conceptualize, one of which is the very nature of our being and awareness. Rather than look for a conceptual explanation, I rest in a direct connection and in that I find all the answers I need.

Interesting that human is perfect only when completely and utterly helpless. From the perspective of the absolute... does that ever change during our life and death?

All very good points - can't say that I disagree with any of them. Nice to share our unique perspectives with an open mind. Now, feel like talking about Buddhism? JK Edit - PS I wanted to address this: "Now, when someone says that their version of Taoism has very little to do with these texts -- that, in fact, it's better not to have read them -- how do I know that this 'Taoism' is even remotely similar to the 'Taoism' that I enjoy?" I can assure you that it is. Before practicing meditation, I'd given the classics a try. The more accessible extracts of the Zhuangzi made sense and struck a bit of a chord which is one thing that drew me towards Daoist practice. On the other hand, the unabridged Zhuangzi and the Laozi were too dry, abstruse, and boring and I couldn't stick with them. After years of practice, I had direct, experiential insight into the non-conceptual foundation - and the conceptual description was much more accessible. Although I must admit, Zhuangzi remains challenging. So yes, I think the experiential path is a most excellent approach and I'm convinced that this was the path of the sages.

We don't but we may choose to based on our culture, conditioning, and personal experiences. We don't although based on our personal experiences we may choose to. We don't, that said - what definition are you working with? There are experiences that living beings may have which lead them to use words like divine and immortal, unborn and undying, because no other words capture the experience that one is trying to communicate. Those who've not had such an experience may not be able to relate. It doesn't bug me at all, that is your privilege and your own personal interpretation... mine may or may not differ Again, your privilege - that is your personal view and I respect it, but it is limited, just as mine is. Whether or not it bugs you it is an accurate observation that the umbrella of Daoism includes gods, immortals, magic, science, meditation, qigong, neigong, military arts, philosophy, shamanism, sexual practices, exorcism, divination, and more. That's simply a dispassionate, unbiased observation of Daoism as it has been practiced in China for centuries... Not all Daoists practice every aspect of Daoism - meditation, taijiquan, divination, sexual alchemy, qigong, neigong, ba shi, exorcism, religious ceremonies, or the study of Dao De Jing or Zhuangzi. My teacher from Taiwan had no interest whatsoever in the philosophy - none. He even discouraged us from reading about it as he felt it was a complete waste of time - any time 'wasted' in reading was better spent in practice. He taught us that everything we needed to know about philosophy would come naturally from our practice and would be much more valuable and true because it arose out of experience rather than someone else's words. I'm not saying he's correct - it's just his way, probably learned from his teachers. I think that the cultural richness and wide variety of practices and views enhances, rather than detracts. It shows us the enormous beauty and diversity of human thought and activity. No need to be judgmental about it, IMO.

I don't really agree with you here. You (and I) are certainly free to define Taoism in terms of what aspects of it we resonate with, choose to quote and inform our life and actions, but in my view the word Taoism encompasses the entirety. There are many different schools within Daoism but even these incorporate elements far beyond the purely secular and philosophical. We may just have to agree to disagree here. I feel that using a very general term, like Daoism, Buddhism, Judaism, human being, water, refers to a general definition. As you get more and more specific in your definition, that is a personal choice and hence, we create something unique. I actually do like how the atheistic aspect of Daoism allows those who have no interest in religious ritual to use the philosophical elements to inform their lives and choices. I have no objection to it. But I think it's important to distinguish that limited definition from the more general one. And I don't mean to make a judgement here, one is not better than the other, simply different. My own view and practice of Daoism incorporates philosophical, practical (cultivation), martial, and shamanic elements but little in the way of any religious belief, interest, or ritual practices. That is mine - no one else's. Yes, it is Daoism and no, it does not define Daoism for anyone other than me. I respect and support your choice. At the same time, in choosing to emphasize certain aspects and ignore others, you are creating something unique to your choices. It does not encompass all that Daoism implies. I think this thread is full of them. Give me a little time to think of something more obvious, perhaps. The Daoists I know who practice the religious rituals and shamanic rituals (I actually do practice the latter to some degree) do not consider what they are doing as "religious" or "shamanic" as a separate or distinct entity, it is simply a part of the their Daoist view and practice, which incorporates the philosophical and cultivation aspects as well, to whatever degree they choose as individuals. Maybe so but, at least for me, it is very valuable to be aware of the degree to which my choices create my reality. I can learn and grow when I am aware of that. In fact, my exposure to Daoism had nothing to do with Laozi or Zhuangzi. I exposed through the practice of Chinese martial arts and Daoist cultivation and shamanism. In fact, my teacher discouraged reading and studying and emphasized practice above all else. Being the Westerner that I am, I have done some reading anyway but the philosophical parts, the reading, the theory, mean little to me beyond what has grown out of the direct experience of my practices. Again, this is my unique "brand" of Daoism - not right, wrong, better, worse, or comprehensive. Just mine...

There are many hours of recorded talks on his website...

I've quoted John O'Donohue before and it seems relevant here - "And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." PS - he was a Celtic, Christian poet and mystic, and I love listening to him speak - his brogue is simply lovely

My issue was that you claimed Taoism to be an Atheistic philosophy, which it is not. Taoism is far more than a philosophy. Certain individuals choose to extract philosophical concepts form Taoism, often out of context, and I think it's important to recognize that is what is happening. There is also no such thing as Shamanic Taoism or Religious Taoism. There is Taoism and there are individuals and groups who define what that is for them based on their personal, cultural, philosophical, and religious biases. I think that is a valuable distinction to make. If either one of them was half the sage they seem to have been, they knew quite clearly that they are God, looking out through their human eyes in their personal, individual, and transient organic encapsulation, so it wasn't an issue. The problem is, not enough folks have that recognition. That is the source of our struggles. In terms of our relationship with the Great Mystery, the Great Mother, God, Mystery, Dao, Non-duality, Brahman, Buddhamind... whatever, what counts is not how we conceptualize or label it, but that we work towards recognizing, revealing, and integrating it into our lives in ways which lead to balance, harmony, peace, love, and happiness. Yes, I acknowledge that all paths are different, methods, are different, fruition and goals are different, but all of that is our creation. What is beyond that which we create? That is what we are and integration with that is the goal of cultivation.

Beautiful, manitou I don't think it ever becomes less awesome - maybe even more so because of the number of times that it is not successful. _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _/\_

Not at all an accurate statement. Daoism, as it is practiced in the East, is replete with a complex pantheon of gods to which Daoists regularly pray, make offerings, and perform a variety of religious rituals. Laozi is considered a god in Daoism and is referred to as Taishang Laojun, one of the Three Pure Ones - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones. Even Daoist martial and healing arts are full of references to the gods. People in the West (and East) often choose to ignore that aspect of Daoism to suit their personal preferences but that does not make it go away.

IMO what's left is exactly the same as what started. The difference is one's relationship with it and with oneself. Zhuangzi's parable about the empty boat is a good one to ponder and embody. The Empty Boat Zhuangzi He who rules men lives in confusion; He who is ruled by men lives in sorrow. Yao therefore desired Neither to influence others Nor to be influenced by them. The way to get clear of confusion And free of sorrow Is to live with Tao In the land of the great Void. If a man is crossing a river And an empty boat collides with his own skiff, Even though he be a bad-tempered man He will not become very angry. But if he sees a man in the boat, He will shout at him to steer clear. If the shout is not heard, he will shout again, And yet again, and begin cursing. And all because there is somebody in the boat. Yet if the boat were empty. He would not be shouting, and not angry. If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you. The straight tree is the first to be cut down, The spring of clear water is the first to be drained dry. If you wish to improve your wisdom And shame the ignorant, To cultivate your character And outshine others; A light will shine around you As if you had swallowed the sun and the moon: You will not avoid calamity. A wise man has said: "He who is content with himself Has done a worthless work. Achievement is the beginning of failure. Fame is beginning of disgrace." Who can free himself from achievement And from fame, descend and be lost Amid the masses of men? He will flow like Tao, unseen, He will go about like Life itself With no name and no home. Simple is he, without distinction. To all appearances he is a fool. His steps leave no trace. He has no power. He achieves nothing, has no reputation. Since he judges no one No one judges him. Such is the perfect man: His boat is empty.

Wonderful post, manitou... I need to emphasize one important point: Me too... A bit too often lately.

I appreciate your reply, Gerard and I'm sorry if I'm being argumentative but I think it's important to address your OP. Daoism embraces balance, as does Buddhism. I studied a Daoist method for over a decade which you would characterize as a fire method. I practice a Buddhist method currently which you would primarily identify as a water method. That said, as we dig deeper, each contains and embraces the other, they extinguish one another to reveal truth. I'm not saying you are incorrect but I don't think you have the whole picture here. These generalizations aren't helpful, IMO, they rarely are. Nor are judgements, these are among the things that both Daoism and Buddhism would have us abandon.