doc benway

Beautiful, manitou I don't think it ever becomes less awesome - maybe even more so because of the number of times that it is not successful. _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _|| ||_ _||||_ _/\_

Not at all an accurate statement. Daoism, as it is practiced in the East, is replete with a complex pantheon of gods to which Daoists regularly pray, make offerings, and perform a variety of religious rituals. Laozi is considered a god in Daoism and is referred to as Taishang Laojun, one of the Three Pure Ones - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Pure_Ones. Even Daoist martial and healing arts are full of references to the gods. People in the West (and East) often choose to ignore that aspect of Daoism to suit their personal preferences but that does not make it go away.

IMO what's left is exactly the same as what started. The difference is one's relationship with it and with oneself. Zhuangzi's parable about the empty boat is a good one to ponder and embody. The Empty Boat Zhuangzi He who rules men lives in confusion; He who is ruled by men lives in sorrow. Yao therefore desired Neither to influence others Nor to be influenced by them. The way to get clear of confusion And free of sorrow Is to live with Tao In the land of the great Void. If a man is crossing a river And an empty boat collides with his own skiff, Even though he be a bad-tempered man He will not become very angry. But if he sees a man in the boat, He will shout at him to steer clear. If the shout is not heard, he will shout again, And yet again, and begin cursing. And all because there is somebody in the boat. Yet if the boat were empty. He would not be shouting, and not angry. If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you. The straight tree is the first to be cut down, The spring of clear water is the first to be drained dry. If you wish to improve your wisdom And shame the ignorant, To cultivate your character And outshine others; A light will shine around you As if you had swallowed the sun and the moon: You will not avoid calamity. A wise man has said: "He who is content with himself Has done a worthless work. Achievement is the beginning of failure. Fame is beginning of disgrace." Who can free himself from achievement And from fame, descend and be lost Amid the masses of men? He will flow like Tao, unseen, He will go about like Life itself With no name and no home. Simple is he, without distinction. To all appearances he is a fool. His steps leave no trace. He has no power. He achieves nothing, has no reputation. Since he judges no one No one judges him. Such is the perfect man: His boat is empty.

Wonderful post, manitou... I need to emphasize one important point: Me too... A bit too often lately.

I appreciate your reply, Gerard and I'm sorry if I'm being argumentative but I think it's important to address your OP. Daoism embraces balance, as does Buddhism. I studied a Daoist method for over a decade which you would characterize as a fire method. I practice a Buddhist method currently which you would primarily identify as a water method. That said, as we dig deeper, each contains and embraces the other, they extinguish one another to reveal truth. I'm not saying you are incorrect but I don't think you have the whole picture here. These generalizations aren't helpful, IMO, they rarely are. Nor are judgements, these are among the things that both Daoism and Buddhism would have us abandon.

Nice analogy - light is light. Colors occur in the eye that is stimulated and the brain that interprets...

Beautiful post Chris. I hope you don't mind if I share some thoughts. One perspective on this is that one's relationship to and experience of these teachings resides in oneself, not in the teachings. Whether they seem abusive, helpful, distracting, traumatic... someone else participating to the same degree may have a wholly different experience and outcome. Like the same person may be a loving mother to some, a sexy temptress to another, a miserable partner, a rebellious daughter, and a demanding boss to yet another... Another perspective that I like to quote is from Peter Fenner - 'If i didn't do what I didn't need to do, I wouldn't know that I didn't need to do it.' I think this is a sign of insight, of maturity, of real progress. When you get to the other side of the river, you no longer need the canoe... put it down and move on. Not sure I agree with this. I don't mean to say that we are obligated to subject ourselves to trauma but many of us must pass through some dark times and experiences to grow. In general the trauma is already in oneself and is not so much caused by but simply brought to light by many of these practices. Can we be completely comfortable with ourselves without baring and experiencing these traumas... maybe for a while but eventually they do tend to surface or affect us unaware which for me is even less desirable. Another quotation I'm attached to by Anthony DeMello - 'Pleasant experiences make life delightful, painful experiences are opportunities for growth." One can't master martial arts without getting hit, or cook well without tasting. One can't be truly comfortable with oneself without awareness of who that is. So important to understand this and so fortunate if one has the opportunity to experience this - I did and it was a game changer for me. Although it may not always feel natural for all people and one's relationship with the concepts may be useful in the beginning and useful later if one is to try and pass it on to others. Many of us are so wrapped up in concept and intellect that it is the only way to connect and create a little opening. At some point, concepts are superfluous. But the absolutely critical point is that it must relate to you, to me... and it must ultimately brings us to the point of recognition and acceptance of who we are and stability in that. Again, once we are there, we often have the feeling that perhaps all of the suffering wasn't needed. Like when Krishnamurti says, "Truth is a pathless land." But would we have gotten there without the pain, without the time spent on the paths that didn't lead anywhere but to where we already have always been? How can we know? How many have gotten there without any instruction, any time "wasted" on "unnecessary" things? Alan Watts says that the master is the one that indulges your fantasies about what you think is necessary to get somewhere you think you need to be, all the time chuckling quietly, smiling knowingly, with affection, and waiting for you to open your eyes and recognize that you've always been there. I wonder if any of us can help each other to wake up or it simply happens when the causes and conditions are right... This is why I treat it as a most precious blessing when it occurs for it is a rare thing of beauty, it is nothing one needs to gain, and yet one has no idea how it has come. _/\_

Endless freshness, I love that - infinite potential, boundless space. It must be emptiness because anything else would be too limiting and the potential must be infinite, otherwise the freshness would end... Return to endless freshness _/\_

Much of my attention lately is on space... Finding the emptiness in that which is solid, hearing the silence in the noise, feeling spacious in one's body, heart, and mind... all seem to be of that same taste as listening to the tuneless tune.

But are they other than the root?

Both... as much as possible. In daily life, it is most obvious when we catch ourselves on a train of thought or in a rush of emotion, whether positive or negative. Can I see how this emotion or this thought is a manifestation of some identity I have constructed that defines the me? Is it the father, the son, the professional, the patriot, the hypocrite, the lover, the addict? Can I see how that identity defines that state and vice versa? And if that identity is not there, neither is the pain or the pleasure. But when the I-dentity is not there, there is a much different, more stable type of pleasure. In meditation, we can get to much subtler and fundamental levels of observation. When "I" is less pronounced and resting it is almost as if space and awareness are stirred by something, I love how the Tibetans call this a subtle wind. And the wind stirs the surface and that space and awareness contract or coalesce and a thought or feeling blossoms and then solidifies and if I watch that it is similarly seen to be an aspect or facet of an identity of some sort, sometimes quite subtle. And if the "I" doesn't identify with that it just sits there, like a mirage, beaconing, and then loosens and weakens and dis-integrates and "I" is again resting... Or something like that. It's always different and it's a work in progress. Sometimes the wind is strong and the waves and swells are overwhelming. Other times it is soft and gentle and the "I" is very restful and the more subtle levels can be uncovered.

I haven't yet read any of the thread, so pardon me if I'm repeating but I'm looking to stay unbiased... For me right now, the root or origin is non-conceptual, beyond words or description so, of course, I'll use some words to describe it... It transcends or precedes the me-ness. It is unborn and undying - I know that sounds cliché but I don't know how else to express that feeling. It is uncontrived, undivided, and unbounded. And 'return' is a much better word than 'achieve' or 'attain' Return can imply to uncover, reveal, reconnect... How to return? What does one do? Not doing is perhaps more accurate. Letting go, dissolving, resting, letting everything be exactly as it is... all are useful instructions, but then one must face the one who is 'doing' all of that for that in itself is an obstacle to what already is. It doesn't need the 'me' and the 'me' really can't do much to help us "get" there in an absolute sense. How can we get to where we alway already are? But investigating that me is useful for a time so that we are aware of its potential and it's grip. In a relative sense, anything I do to lessen the impact of 'me' may be useful - energetic work, putting others before oneself, meditative practices, and so on... anything that lessens the reality of identity. Lately, I've been watching the constant play of identity - jumping from one form to another... always waiting to blossom and contract, pulling the me into being. As the identity lessens its grip I feel closer to that source.

I suspect it originated with the Bön - Tibetan Buddhism and Bön are so intertwined, it's difficult to tease out what comes from where... The Yungdrung Bön teachings include nine "vehicles" (http://ravencypresswood.com/abou/). The first four are considered "causal vehicles" and the soul retrieval methods and rituals are a part of that. The "higher" vehicles relate to sutra, tantra, and dzogchen. According to the description of the program, I suspect that RInpoche will be combining the soul retrieval principles with experiential practices from the Dzogchen teachings as that is his primary focus in teaching. In the course description, he mentions omitting the traditional soul retrieval rituals and ceremonies to focus on the core teachings. By this he is usually referring to developing familiarity with and stability in resting in the inner refuge - the gateway to the nature of mind. This is the foundation of his teachings regarding healing, in general. Here is a link to some interesting information on healing in the Bön tradition - http://www.olmoling.org/contents/healing Here is another excellent link to information about this aspect of Bön teachings and practices - http://bonshenling.org/2012/05/tse-dup-yang-bod-tibetan-bon-soul-healing/

Funny, my experience has been the opposite... I suggest that each individual has unique aptitude and potential and would do themselves justice by maintaining an open mind, embracing what works for them, and discarding what does not. It's very nice for us to have confidence and enthusiasm for our practices, less constructive to disparage others' paths, especially with gross generalizations.

I will come at the question from a slightly different perspective. I feel like I'm seeing responses predicated on different definitions of Dao and De so I'll respond to your English words of Wisdom and Virtue. Furthermore, I'll take semantic license and replace Virtue with Method which, in Bon and Buddhist terminology is synonymous with Compassion. I acknowledge that this may not be identical to the question as you asked it but it will help me to express my opinion. In my view and practice, Dao and De, Wisdom and Virtue, Wisdom and Compassion are inseparable. Wisdom is the recognition of truth, of our fundamental human nature. Depending on one's aptitude and preferences, we can use many concepts to define this - oneness, wholeness, emptiness, clear light, naturalness, deathless, birthless, unchanging, and any combination of the above. All of these concepts are wrong - they are all inaccurate approximations of what refuses to be defined or limited. Dao cannot be defined... Virtue is the effect of this Wisdom and Virtue is also a path to this Wisdom. Any direct contact with that true nature is necessarily accompanied by an awakening to the truth that binds all living things together. It underlines their lack of separation and the wholeness of being. Progress up until that point will be reflected in manifestations that are related to one's karmic traces. There are the Oshos, the Krishnamurtis, the Ramanas, the Dalai Lamas, all quite advance spiritually and all quite different in their external manifestations. However, it is my opinion that once that direct connection is made, a person cannot any longer act in a way that is devoid of caring for others as they would care for themselves. Self and other no longer has meaning so taking advantage of another is taking advantage of oneself. This is not an absolute... the connection is a transient and fragile thing but, at the same time, irrevocable and will inform each and every day of the rest of our lives. Certainly we will back slide and fall into old patterns. If a piece of paper is stored rolled up for 30 years and then unrolled, does it lay flat? There is MUCH to undo - nothing really to do. But as we do engage with others and engage in activity moving forward in our lives, there is that memory of love and that connection to all life that will not permit us to pretend ignorance any longer.

The things we do to ourselves! Good luck If you are doing all three trials the same day, I would guess the last will be the worst due to the cumulative effect of the inflammation. I am with manitou - allow the pain, don't fight it. I would pray to the spirit of the pepper to help you through your ordeal. Direct enormous love to your body and your eyes, in particular, and thank them for making the sacrifice you require.

Rather than simply criticize the opinion of others, why not offer one of your own?

I think that the graphics in the video show extremely poor posture. Not sure if the authors know what good posture is based on what I see here.

I also have (had) a lifetime passion for the martial arts. Studied for about 40 years. About a third of that in the internals. As my Dzogchen practice deepened, I felt that I had to let it go. I just had no room for the violence in my life. Similarly, I let go of things I used to enjoy like fly fishing and eating meat - just can't derive any pleasure from it anymore. I still do a little taiji and bagua practice and teaching but only from a health and cultivation perspective. I am trying to let go of the tendency to visualize martial applications when I practice.

If the local program is run by a good teacher, I'd HIGHLY recommend classes over videos.

When my teacher, who is a Daoist from Taiwan, bows to the shrine, makes offering of fruits and incense, prays, and so forth it looks quite like religion to me. Daoism is religion for those looking to it for that. It is philosophy for those looking to it for that. It is a method of personal cultivation for those looking to it for that. It is what you want from it but can't be limited by what you or others think it is.

Those are the times that it is most important and most beneficial to do our spiritual practices. If the don't help you through the tough times, what good are they?

I don't believe in belief - In the spiritual and cultivation arena, it's my opinion that all belief holds us back. Belief is a creation of the conceptual mind. In spirituality we are looking to embrace that which is beyond the conceptual mind.

Nevermind... I'll let you go

First I would like to say how lucky we are to have such a sensitive, courageous, and open member among us. I suspect that part of this is related to your own life experience in your work, in addition to your conditioning and the traumatic experience of reading the book at an impressionable age. I also think that a part of the problem is the subliminal and explicit conditioning you've been subjected to in the mass media throughout your life. Whether we "believe" or even subject ourselves to the media, it is constantly rubbed into us at all levels of awareness in our daily lives and it is well proven that subliminal messaging is extremely effective, as is hypnosis. In terms of what steps to take, re-reading the book sounds like a great idea. Another approach that I have been taking is that of acceptance and commitment - Accept what is there as a part of who you are, like it or not, agree with it or not it simply is - honor that - it is just an ornament of the wholeness. Commit to your core values of who you want to be and live that, regardless of the feelings and thoughts as they come up and attempt to interfere. That part of you is, however and from wherever it came. It's OK - it's just a little piece of the puzzle that, when seen from a distance, is absolutely perfect. When we try to analyze, reject, and change our emotional responses and thought patterns in an active way, we generally fail. That seems to be because the one trying to make the change is the problem itself. When we observe it, accept and embrace it as a part of who we are in an open and naked way, it already has changed. When I say accept I don't mean condone or enjoy but rather, don't reject - I like the word allow. When I say in an open and naked way, I mean to look at it not with the perspective of pain, embarrassment, self criticism but rather without judgement, without aversion, just see it for what it is - a fleeting thought or emotion, a protective mechanism - possibly misguided, inherited as a part of our conditioning, genetics, who knows. Whatever it is, it is not who you are, it is transient. I have a few things like that - horrible thoughts that come and go, they can be quite distracting and distressing. I think acceptance is the most effective approach to lessen it's effect and allow it to fade... at least for me. And in accepting that, we remain completely free to make choices consistent with our values. I know that you already know all of what i am saying but hopefully it will be of some value anyway...