doc benway

In most spiritual traditions, the object is the self becoming less important.

Meditation is a wonderful tool with many benefits. With the right program, it is possible to see benefits from as little as 5-10 minutes a day of proper practice. In my experience, you can get more benefit from less invested time with "still" practices, either sitting or standing. Moving practices have enormous value but generally require a bit more time to enjoy the benefits. Early morning is often best while everyone else is asleep as well as lunch break at work. With a very busy schedule you must be VERY dedicated to create that extra time in your life for practice. If you see tangible benefits from the practice, it becomes much easier to honor that commitment. If interested in more detailed info, feel free to send me a PM.

Yup - I saw them when I first started sky gazing. I assumed they were erythrocytes and never investigated further. Thanks for that info - they're leukocytes, not erythrocytes. The important thing about sky gazing isn't what you see, it's what you don't see.

That's the point - your opinion. It's different for the ones it helps. Or they're completely OK with it because they're filled with gratitude and, consequently, devotion. These feelings are what drive the spiritual path. And they're not too much different from what drives the researcher. True - Buddhism is a nice combination of psychology and spirituality. And the monks I've gotten to know are great people. That was cool of you - sincerely. thanks

So if I turned it around, I could say that science is irrelevant and unnecessary after reading some threads about poorly designed experiments on a pseudo-science web page. With all due respect, this forum is not representative of nor replete with credible spiritual practitioners. It is more a place where folks hang out who want to spend time on a chat forum talking about whatever strikes their fancy - mostly Asian topics. Most of the folks who discuss Daoism here have little or no formal, credible training. The same can be said for Buddhism, especially Dzogchen. Many (?most) folks here are self-educated in their spirituality for a variety of reasons - imagine a website dominated by self-taught "scientists." So while you are certainly free to discredit all of spiritual endeavor based on reading TaoBums' threads, it's my opinion that it is foolish to do so. It's nice to hear that you are happy and well adjusted enough to have no need for real spirituality in your life currently. I was the same way for many years until faced with a life altering trauma. Spirituality is about understanding oneself at a fundamental level - emotionally, psychologically, etc... And most serious practitioners I encounter come to it out of a deep need due to trauma or some other source of pain and suffering, things that science can't fix. Some, of course, are raised in it and some come to it out of a sense of wonder regarding things that science can't answer. The other misconception is about faith. When one sees positive changes in their life due to a spiritual practice, belief and faith are not necessary. When those positive changes don't manifest, belief and faith are foolish. In a sense, spirituality is also evidence based. While it is generally difficult to measure and study the benefits of spiritual practice, it can be quite profound and transformative in one's life and benefits from meditative and other "spiritual" practices (taijiquan, qigong, ...) are well documented in the medical literature. All considered, I wonder why you still hang out here if that's how you feel? Telling people on a forum dedicated to Daoism that spirituality is bullshit does seem a bit trollish, don't you think?

They are two of the greatest practices but very challenging for many people. Most do need the help of a master to master stillness and silence. First, we need to value those qualities - not natural at all in the West. Then we need to practice them correctly - more difficult than it sounds. But the results are well worth the (non)effort.

I think that the 8 month old did not master Taiji. In fact, the 8 month old did nothing at all - he is the embodiment of Wu Wei. In non-doing, he is unable to interfere with the the Nature flowing through him. So in connecting with the infant, you are connecting to the Nature, as with a tree or a cat. Unfortunately, that will change soon enough. Welcome to one of the most beautiful and challenging chapters of your life!

Protector said: "Strange, haven't heard of any new spiritual advancements, especially ones that could fix global warming. http://sutura.io Science can loose all the grips it wants, I can't imagine anything replacing it." Science hasn't fixed global warming yet. In fact, science caused global warming. I'm not at all anti-science, nothing likely to replace it, and by it's very nature it is always striving to refine it's view and methods - so is authentic and skillfully applied spirituality. It's not about science or spirituality, it's about what people do with it.

They may also be erythrocytes in your retinal capillaries.

To you, not to me Everything - and it's an authentic and lasting happiness, not a transient thrill that fades as soon as you see your next object of infatuation. Correct, it's a choice, however there is no example of indigenous people to my knowledge who are not spiritual - but I'm no authority on that and am open to correction. Living close to nature allows it to naturally express itself. Your technological life robs you of that source of peace, security, and happiness. I think this is why people are so fucked up. So is life. You're alive today, dead next week, whoopity doo. Science is valuable and spirituality is valuable and both can be exploited, misguided, misinterpreted, and harmful.If it's not for you - Mazel Tov. Why so much bitterness? Why not live and let live?

When I feel I don't need something in my life, I can disrespect it and try to influence others to avoid it as well. This is projection and doesn't acknowledge the variety of needs and aptitudes among people. I don't think it is very skillful or considerate. An alternative approach is to recognize that others may have different needs and preferences while simply stating it's something that I don't need. There are those who can live very fulfilling and meaningful lives with no need for science whatsoever. There are those whose lives are deeply enriched by spirituality and religion. Science has done far more harm than religion, IMO. That said, it also has great value and both have their place.

I think it is best, at least for me, to take personal responsibility rather than look outside oneself for answers. It is simply ignorance - not knowing the truth about who and what we are, and habit. That leads to activity that has consequences - karma. And this spans generations and has enormous inertia in humanity. I like the analogy of rolled paper as I recently mentioned in another thread - if you store paper rolled up for a decade then try to flatten it, it tends to roll back up. Such is the way of ignorance.

I really like his quote and your editorial is just as critical - recognizing is very rare and precious and potentially life altering. It is also fragile and it's very easy to fall back in to the mud and wallow. We need to remember, express, and integrate. I think this is one reason why mindfulness holds such a central role in Buddha's teachings. For me, it is helpful to look at how we approach that subsequent work as demonstrating our appreciation for the gift of recognition.

Thanks for your response Anderson. Some teachers and lineages do incorporate the generation of bodhicitta into the guru yoga practice. Some include bodhicitta when time permits but may exclude it in an abbreviated session. I agree with you that for whatever period of time one is able to rest fully in the nature of mind all is complete and there is nothing more to be done, there is nothing undone, at that time bodhicitta arises naturally and flows unimpeded - it is already there, ignorance simply obscures it. If one is able to do that in every waking and sleeping moment, one is fully liberated. How many can claim to be at that level? During the times that we are not resting in the nature of mind, what then? How to go about our day to day lives, especially if we are not monks? Are we to revert to samsaric desires and aversions like those around us or lust after a nearly unattainable and selfish goal like achieving the rainbow body simply to "achieve Buddhahood" for ourselves or more mundane and easily achievable goals? Or is it better to be open to the needs of others, serve others, let our own desires and aversions go? I think this is the way to lessen the grip of the self and stabilize our ability to rest in the nature of mind, not only during practice but off the cushion as well. I think this is the fundamental approach of Mahayana and I think it works. The Dalai Lama is certainly a big fan. Even the motivation to rest in the nature of mind (and to achieve complete liberation) is best done with the intention to liberate oneself in order that one can effectively assist others to do the same. This is exactly what it says in the devotional prayers we recite after each and every practice, at least in my tradition: Go sum dak pe ge wa gang gyi pa Kham sum sem chen nam gyi dun du ngo Du sum sak pe le drip kun jang ne Ku sum dzok pe sangye nur top shok All pure virtue done through the three doors I dedicate to the welfare of all sentient beings of the three realms Having purified all afflictions and obscurations of the three poisons May we swiftly achieve complete Buddhahood of the three bodies. I think that one of the reasons that the Dzogchen teachings were kept highly secret is just what we are discussing. It is too easy to assume that because we spend a few hours (or minutes) a day resting in (what we think is) the nature of mind, and because we are beginning to understand the Dzogchen view, that we no longer need to be concerned with less exciting and more demanding things like practicing bodhicitta, ngondro, being kind, and so on. The theory of Dzogchen is very appealing but the effective practice much more subtle and elusive. At least that's my current understanding and how I'm attempting to approach my own practice. I think that it takes a very long time, for most, to be able to truly connect with and deeply rest in the nature of mind to the level where bodhicitta spontaneously arises and we have a deep personal connection to that source. Until then, practices like generating bodhicitta and others can help give us a taste of that, make it a bit more familiar, bring us a little closer. It also creates much healthier karmic effects than most other things we could be spending our time with. It may be artificial at first but after a time that bodhicitta can arise very naturally and spontaneously. Then we no longer need to practice, we simply channel it. All that said, I respect your approach, especially if it is working well for you.

One way to look at this is from the perspective of essence. Nothing moves, nothing has ever moved from that perspective because essence is one-ness, non-dual. The bridge, on the other hand, being a link between mind and mind's fundamental nature (essence) remains a manifestation of duality and hence is subject to change - is impermanent. Another way to look at it is that water, being one of the five elements is essentially indestructible. It is a constituent and fundamental part of our physical world and experience. The bridge, on the other hand, is a creation of man (edit - and mind) and therefore temporary. Finally, the bridge between knowing and not knowing can take many forms for different individuals and once knowing is there, the bridge is no longer necessary. Wonderful work Mark, Bearded Dragon, and Taomeow. I would agree that poems like these are meant to speak to us on many levels and the meaning is not contained within the words or within the author's intellect, but rather within us - within essence - and there are therefore infinite legitimate possibilities and, at the same time, only one. Indeed!

In my inexperienced opinion, so much focus on rainbow body for a practitioner is the surest way to push it away. The goal for the Dzogchen practitioner is the liberation of all sentient beings from their suffering. Dzogchen stripped of it's Mahayana context is no longer Dzogchen. Selfish motivation in Dzogchen simply reinforces that which one is trying to liberate.

Basically the answer is karma. The embryo/fetus is already a Buddha, as are you. But delusion and ignorance are present and awareness of the truth is absent. There are lots of analogies in the teachings like the impoverished woman who uses a rock as a pillow and unbeknownst to her, the rock is actually a huge nugget of gold. Another is a roll of paper - if you store a sheet of paper rolled up for 10 years then unroll it, it goes right back to the way it was. There is a karmic inertia that spans generations and influences our lives. If that is too esoteric, think of things like genetics, pollution, and so on - these are all manifestations of karma. I think that "enlightened" and "innocent" are not too dissimilar, though certainly not identical. In the Dzogchen teachings, the nature of mind has three inseparable characteristics - space, awareness, and bliss. It is primordially pure. Pure and innocent are not too far apart. In the Dzogchen teachings, one does not become enlightened, this is what separates them from the sutra and tantra teachings. It is not about doing, it is more about not doing and through letting everything go, being re-connected to the nature of mind. Here you've touched on the primary differences - Dzogchen is not about achieving anything. That is the primary difference. Anapanasati is mindfulness of the breath and stefos described it quite well. Sitting in Zen is similar to contemplation in Dzogchen. The main difference with Zen is in subtle aspects of the view. All theory is limited because it is a conceptual construct of dualistic mind. Dzogchen, anapanasati, and zen all transcend dualistic concepts. Thinking about them and theorizing brings you right back, however. Much better to simply practice, IMO. The middle way refers to avoiding extremes such as beliefs in existence and non-existence. The nature is not only empty but also clear and radiant, full of love. The middle way is more a view than a method. The teachings refer to wisdom and method. Wisdom relates to view (emptiness, madhyamika) whereas the method refers more to things like compassion and meditation. It can really get confusing... Try to simply enjoy the process.

The irony here is wonderful - you really ought to consider heeding your own advice.

Thanks Heath, I appreciate that

No one knows but you - this is unique to each individual. Best to spend some time studying them and interacting with others who practice and eventually you will know... or not. Best to just be OK with not knowing, then it will come to you. Did you ever notice how when you want something or look for it very hard, it is elusive. When you let go, it's right there in front of you. Yes, yes, and yes. Although I don't see that there's a need to call oneself anything in particular. Just say, I am studying myself - that is the subject no matter which flavor you prefer. I'm reading a book by Nan Huai-Chin who fits the bill as a famous master identified with and drawing from both. Wonderful book I received here on the TTB's from just some random panda, Master Nan explains the Diamond Sutra. I've had some experience with both myself and there are enormous similarities and significant differences. In China, according to Chinese friends, there is much less distinction between the two than in the West. Yes - your path. Whether it is influenced by this or that or a mixture is not so important. What matters is that it makes sense to you and that you see benefit in your life related to it. In my experience, the Buddhist approach tends to emphasize the heart (love, compassion, relationships) whereas the Daoist approach tends to be more about you (physically and energetically). That is a gross generalization based on my limited personal experience with direct instruction (not just books). Better for you to study and experiment with both and find what's right for you. You'll see and hear folks denigrate the "New Age" (not to mention just about anything else). The path that leads to benefit and insight in your own life is authentic. No matter how traditional and "authentic" a path is, if it isn't a good fit it is a waste of time. In my experience, you will not get a true picture of a system or method from books, videos, and the internet. Certainly there is lots of good information out there but there are things you cannot get from media. Following Daoist or Buddhist teachings transcends mere information. At a recent retreat, the master pointed out the importance of using that time together to share and connect rather than simply transfer information - that is easily gotten in the digital age. What is not easy to get is the direct "transmission" and by that I mean all of the non-verbal, non-intellectual stuff that is much harder to define. When you meet masters and students of a discipline, you will learn a great deal from their behavior and their demeanor. There is much to learn beyond information - lot's of non-verbal, non-intellectual learning occurs with direct human interaction. I've studied with Daoist and Buddhist masters and the personal interactions I experienced with them were light years apart and determined which direction I wanted to go in for myself. Don't worry so much about what's right or wrong. It is your life and path. If you want to practice Qigong and recite mantras, that's fine. I will say this, however; many of these systems are the way they are for a reason and mixing and matching practices may not be the most expedient way to see results. I think it is helpful to develop a certain fundamental understanding and skill level in one system before judging it and before mixing and matching. There is certainly no harm, however, in studying writings and even receiving teachings from master of different disciplines but it can be confusing and easy to lose your way. Most important of all - enjoy the journey!!! It is all about the journey - today, here, now - tomorrow never comes and the past doesn't exist.

I think that you are mistaken here - his posts are rarely, if ever, cut and paste. I've never met him or messaged him privately but I'm fairly certain he speaks from his own understanding and view, unlike some others who like to cut and paste here. His posts are generally quite clear and succinct, just like you ask, you just have a bone to pick with him for some reason. You criticize him for not backing up his positions and yet you applaud zoom for just making shit up - curious. There are very good reasons for this. Many of the teachings are misunderstood if taken literally and out of context. Also, the meaning and accessibility are quite different when approached from a Tibetan cultural background and a Western sensibility. With a little bit of skillful guidance and patient introspection, the apparently archaic terminology opens up and yields enormous insight and beauty. Clearly it's not your cup of tea, that's fine - let it go if it hasn't worked for you.

Not so much annoyed anymore, just sad to see a precious, rare, and very precise system misrepresented. And that leads to disinterest in participating. More than opinion - fact, but that's ok... the arguments are tiresome. That's great to hear and yes, it is nice to see how discussions go in unpredictable directions. Sad to see it occur at the expense of accurate information about Dzogchen but such is life at TTB's... Peace

Most of the recent Dzogchen discussion here is bogus. TTB's is not a good place to learn about Dzogchen. There is some solid info here but even more that is inaccurate. Tough for someone new to the topic to discriminate. There is little or no vetting of information here so anyone can post anything on any topic, more or less. That's what's been going on recently with respect to Dzogchen. If you read the threads here, the posts by asunthatneversets are among the most accurate. For some unknown reason, rails, zoom, and others like to argue with him and denigrate his posts, but he knows what he's talking about with respect to Dzogchen. Vajracakra has much more accurate and consistent info if this topic interests you. There is more of an attempt there to substantiate information that is posted regarding the Dharma. Even Dharmawheel is a better resource although there is as much drama there as in the Buddhist section here, unfortunately. If you sincerely want to practice Dzogchen, you absolutely need a teacher - no other way. Those that say otherwise don't know what they are talking about. All of the above is simply my opinion. Good luck

I think this can largely be answered by considering karma