doc benway

No one knows but you - this is unique to each individual. Best to spend some time studying them and interacting with others who practice and eventually you will know... or not. Best to just be OK with not knowing, then it will come to you. Did you ever notice how when you want something or look for it very hard, it is elusive. When you let go, it's right there in front of you. Yes, yes, and yes. Although I don't see that there's a need to call oneself anything in particular. Just say, I am studying myself - that is the subject no matter which flavor you prefer. I'm reading a book by Nan Huai-Chin who fits the bill as a famous master identified with and drawing from both. Wonderful book I received here on the TTB's from just some random panda, Master Nan explains the Diamond Sutra. I've had some experience with both myself and there are enormous similarities and significant differences. In China, according to Chinese friends, there is much less distinction between the two than in the West. Yes - your path. Whether it is influenced by this or that or a mixture is not so important. What matters is that it makes sense to you and that you see benefit in your life related to it. In my experience, the Buddhist approach tends to emphasize the heart (love, compassion, relationships) whereas the Daoist approach tends to be more about you (physically and energetically). That is a gross generalization based on my limited personal experience with direct instruction (not just books). Better for you to study and experiment with both and find what's right for you. You'll see and hear folks denigrate the "New Age" (not to mention just about anything else). The path that leads to benefit and insight in your own life is authentic. No matter how traditional and "authentic" a path is, if it isn't a good fit it is a waste of time. In my experience, you will not get a true picture of a system or method from books, videos, and the internet. Certainly there is lots of good information out there but there are things you cannot get from media. Following Daoist or Buddhist teachings transcends mere information. At a recent retreat, the master pointed out the importance of using that time together to share and connect rather than simply transfer information - that is easily gotten in the digital age. What is not easy to get is the direct "transmission" and by that I mean all of the non-verbal, non-intellectual stuff that is much harder to define. When you meet masters and students of a discipline, you will learn a great deal from their behavior and their demeanor. There is much to learn beyond information - lot's of non-verbal, non-intellectual learning occurs with direct human interaction. I've studied with Daoist and Buddhist masters and the personal interactions I experienced with them were light years apart and determined which direction I wanted to go in for myself. Don't worry so much about what's right or wrong. It is your life and path. If you want to practice Qigong and recite mantras, that's fine. I will say this, however; many of these systems are the way they are for a reason and mixing and matching practices may not be the most expedient way to see results. I think it is helpful to develop a certain fundamental understanding and skill level in one system before judging it and before mixing and matching. There is certainly no harm, however, in studying writings and even receiving teachings from master of different disciplines but it can be confusing and easy to lose your way. Most important of all - enjoy the journey!!! It is all about the journey - today, here, now - tomorrow never comes and the past doesn't exist.

I think that you are mistaken here - his posts are rarely, if ever, cut and paste. I've never met him or messaged him privately but I'm fairly certain he speaks from his own understanding and view, unlike some others who like to cut and paste here. His posts are generally quite clear and succinct, just like you ask, you just have a bone to pick with him for some reason. You criticize him for not backing up his positions and yet you applaud zoom for just making shit up - curious. There are very good reasons for this. Many of the teachings are misunderstood if taken literally and out of context. Also, the meaning and accessibility are quite different when approached from a Tibetan cultural background and a Western sensibility. With a little bit of skillful guidance and patient introspection, the apparently archaic terminology opens up and yields enormous insight and beauty. Clearly it's not your cup of tea, that's fine - let it go if it hasn't worked for you.

Not so much annoyed anymore, just sad to see a precious, rare, and very precise system misrepresented. And that leads to disinterest in participating. More than opinion - fact, but that's ok... the arguments are tiresome. That's great to hear and yes, it is nice to see how discussions go in unpredictable directions. Sad to see it occur at the expense of accurate information about Dzogchen but such is life at TTB's... Peace

Most of the recent Dzogchen discussion here is bogus. TTB's is not a good place to learn about Dzogchen. There is some solid info here but even more that is inaccurate. Tough for someone new to the topic to discriminate. There is little or no vetting of information here so anyone can post anything on any topic, more or less. That's what's been going on recently with respect to Dzogchen. If you read the threads here, the posts by asunthatneversets are among the most accurate. For some unknown reason, rails, zoom, and others like to argue with him and denigrate his posts, but he knows what he's talking about with respect to Dzogchen. Vajracakra has much more accurate and consistent info if this topic interests you. There is more of an attempt there to substantiate information that is posted regarding the Dharma. Even Dharmawheel is a better resource although there is as much drama there as in the Buddhist section here, unfortunately. If you sincerely want to practice Dzogchen, you absolutely need a teacher - no other way. Those that say otherwise don't know what they are talking about. All of the above is simply my opinion. Good luck

I think this can largely be answered by considering karma

with gratitude to a beautiful Panda and in honor of the dangerous deci belle for the astute selection - For your reading and enlightening pleasure, I will send this book to one who chooses wisely - Cultivating the Empty Field: the silent illumination of Zen master Hongzhi Pick a number 1 - 200, and I'll check back soon. Not sure when - sorry To the winner - I'd suggest you start at the beginning of the practice manual

He is a wonderful translator - thanks for the link.

Winner! Please PM me your shipping info. Thanks for playing.

Thanks for the replies so far - I'll let this run through Wednesday. Good luck! PS - it's a marvelous book, especially well suited for those who want to DIY, IMO

I follow the method outlined by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche in his book and I did an online course with him which was quite good. He has another online course starting very soon - if you can afford it, I highly recommend it. It includes access to a number of streaming videos and other resources and an opportunity to interact with many other participants and the teacher in an online forum so you can get questions answered and share experiences. Rumor has it that this will be the subject of his 2 week summer retreat next year. That said, I suspect that the method is less important than the devotion and consistency. I haven't read Wallace's book so I can't compare the practices. I don't consider myself accomplished but I practice regularly. The daytime practices, nighttime preparation, and allowing the body to fall into a more natural rhythm of sleep and waking (e.g. not so distorted by electric lighting, late night use of computer and other electronics, etc...) seem to be the most important aspects of the practice. I am much more successful when on retreat and living with less external stimulation and much more devotion. Things like mantras, prayer, and meditation before sleep (and throughout the day can be very helpful, IMO), if you resonate with those sorts of practices.

It would be very nice if we could link to larger images of those wonderful thangkas!

At the risk of offending even further, I'd like to offer another approach that is more challenging but potentially more beneficial. My teacher frequently refers to the Tibetan approach that defines three levels of practitioners. When something bothers us and we look at it as being someone else or an external situation that is responsible, we are acting as inferior practitioners. When we look at it as being due to a combination of ourselves and others or an external situation, we are acting as middling practitioners. When we look at it completely as our own creation and responsibility, we are acting as superior practitioners. So whenever something like this bothers me, I try to look at not who made the attack or insult, but rather what my reaction to that says about me. In this way I have a real opportunity to learn more about myself and grow, even though that might be a bit painful. Otherwise, I'm just wasting my time complaining. I haven't mastered this but it gets easier and more effective with practice. It's a great way to disassemble the ego and cultivate equanimity. Sorry if anyone finds this offensive, it is offered in a loving and supportive spirit.

As 9th implies, empowerment and transmission has much to do with the teaching. We may overemphasize the effect on the recipient. There is a real possibility of teachings having a negative impact on the recipient who is not ready or not suited to the teaching. Empowerment and transmission are methods of protecting the teachings from abuse or misunderstanding and protecting the inappropriate recipient from harm. It's only very recently that many of these teachings are available in such a widespread fashion. Certainly there are many benefits froms empowerments and transmission - there is much to be gained! Such as a boost in confidence, a more direct understanding, a feeling of direct connection with an unbroken direct personal transmission of truth. A feeling of intimacy and acceptance by the teacher, the teachings, and the lineage. A feeling of being part of something wonderful - a family, a tradition, a lineage that has produced wonderful teachings and masters who have achieved great understanding and acts of compassion, service, and wisdom. These things cannot be underestimated! One is likely to take teachings more seriously when received directly from a master rather than through a book. One is much more likely to devote oneself more completely and assiduously to teachings when one has traveled far, spent time and money and made sacrifices to receive them. Even more so when one develops a deep love for the teacher, the teachings, and the lineage. To be successful with these methods requires enormous energy and devotion, and all of these things improve the likelihood of success. There is much to be gained from empowerment and transmission, and much to be lost through steadfast devotion to the teachings until we are left with nothing... except that which is left when we let go of everything we have, know, and are.

I think he makes a valid point. It's not a criticism of the site, nor is it a reflection of hatred, rather an observation of the behavior of some members here. It's also a testament to the freedom of expression that is tolerated and even encouraged here. I think the emotional involvement simply reflects over-identification. When we over-identify with a our role in life, it leads to heightened emotional reactions, whether it is our job, our role in the family unit, our role as a practitioner, etc... And no where do we tend to identify more deeply than with our religions, spirituality, personal beliefs, and value systems. The emotional component is simply an indication of how much more work needs to be done on the path...

I haven't read all 4 pages so I apologize if my post is redundant. I did see some great replies though. I'll add another perspective which you may or may not want to hear: It's equally instructive to look at what this says about you - why do you want them to look at things from a different perspective? If they are satisfied with their view and approach, why do you assume the responsibility to "get them to understand their arrogance?" or "get them to see that they probably don't know anything" - is that not equally arrogant? Did they ask for your input or even want it? Why do we feel the need to convince other people to adopt or at least validate our perspective? If you look at this process closely, you may learn something about yourself. And it may not be all that flattering. Been there done that - I'm pointing the finger at me just as much as at you! I like Ya Mu's response - be kind, be happy, be friendly, do the real work for yourself and hopefully you will grow and benefit from it.... let them see that there is something about you that is different - well adjusted, serene, loving, comfortable (that is, of course, if there is!), then they might really be interested in what you have to say. I learned this lesson the hard way. While our view may be right for us, that doesn't mean we get to choose for someone else. Good luck!

It's all about letting go and opening - you've already got everything you need.

I think that the sage is useless because there is nothing to be done... All is perfected as it is.

Thanks for the clarification. I think that self awareness is the most important thing we can do with respect to personal cultivation, along with developing a commitment to helping others - we're just one of the others that needs help... Self-consciousness is just one specific personal characteristic that is illuminated by self-awareness. There are many others but that's certainly a good one to work with. I think we suffer from that in varying degrees. It's a reflection of self-judgement and is just a specialized form of our mind's tendency to judge everything. So I think it's helpful to become aware of our tendency to judge and explore what that means, what purpose it serves, and how effective and skillful a means it is in terms of moving forward along our path and enrich us in terms of personal growth and relationships. The judge is just another thought. And it can be absolutely brutal. It knows all of our secrets. It never lets up. It can certainly be helpful in our daily lives but for most of us it is way too active and causes more trouble than necessary. It's interesting to see who the judge is - it's generally a conglomeration of conditioned responses we have inherited from our culture, our parents, teachers, friends, TV ads, etc... When we begin to really see the true nature of the judge, it becomes less powerful. It's possible to see right through it and let it go to a large degree but it's always hovering there, ready to give advice and criticism. The other side of the coin is the one who is feeling judged - that is the same thing, an amalgamation of expectations, desires, fears, disappointments, etc... It is completely empty of any inherent existence. It is just a thought pattern. When we over-identify with a particular role (father, mother, child, doctor, lawyer, janitor, scientist, athlete, cultivator, whatever...), the judge and the judged become very active. When we notice our tendency to over-identify and can let go of that, the self-consciousness eases. The tendency to judge is simply a natural response to our illusion of duality. If we feel separate from our surroundings and others, we begin to measure and judge. The more open we feel, the more we can simply allow everything to be as it is without judgement, distinction, and measurement, the more connected and at ease we feel. I could go on and on - this is an area where I really like to focus my attention and practice. I hope that's of some value.

Back to the topic at hand - The book has arrived and it's wonderful! I've already started reading - really impressed. Thanks so much JARP!

Beautiful exposition - those claiming interest in Dzogchen practice would do themselves a service to study this post. The primary pith instructions that are repeated over and over by the masters who are said to have achieved rainbow body is exactly the same thing - leave it as it is. Ahhh, yes, therein lies the rub.... And the awakening sometimes comes first, then it remains necessary to develop that stability otherwise it's easily wasted! So frustratingly so! The thinking mind IS the nature of mind - it is not other, to try and stop it is to fight against nature. To allow it without over-identifying with it is to liberate.

Please define your terms - self consciousness and self awareness The first hurdle is to recognize that each of us probably perceive these in our own unique ways so communication may or may not be meaningful until we define these concepts.

Wonderful post, deci. I'd like to add a much more mundane aspect of this approach that I think is extraordinarily valuable. To study oneself in the more literal sense is also of great benefit on the path, especially for those to whom the more subtle levels of awareness and insight are elusive. I would advocate that we look at ourselves unflinchingly - our thoughts, our moods, our sensory experience, our motivation - all of it. Just watch, no need to even change anything or interfere. Develop familiarity with what is going on rather than simply riding the thought/emotion train day in day out, reacting in unawareness and living as an automaton. Live in awareness, no matter where we are on our path. As we being to really take stock of all of this and free ourselves of our conditioned responses and patterns, we are naturally guided to look at the looker as well. That is when investigation and insight begin to reveal the more subtle and profound aspects of our true nature to which your refer. So while I do not disagree with anything you wrote and appreciate your ability to express deep insight, I believe those same words and teachings can be applied at multiple levels to guide us at different stages along the way.

I feel sad - I feel protective and appreciative towards those that were generous enough to bring these precious teachings to us and intend to honor that by respecting the rules they choose to apply. Just my approach - you are free to choose your own. There was a time in the very recent past when these teachings were highly secret and could not be obtained no matter what a person was willing to pay. For me, it is a very small price to pay to buy a book that helps support the authors and organizations that bring us these teachings.

I think asunthatneversets is adding something very valuable to this thread - a sober perspective from someone with understanding of and experience in the Dzogchen system, something the OP completely lacks and others seem to have no respect for. I don't begrudge the OP from indulging himself, and anyone else that feels like going along for the ride, in speculation and gratuitous assertions but it is important to ground the discussion in the facts regarding the nature of Dzogchen, if that is a part of the premise of the discussion. Or not - we could just as well begin discussing the 57th level of Mo Pai with as much credibility as what is being tossed around about Dzogchen - how valuable would that be?

Do what? I think that piece is important to clarify.