doc benway

Excellent video - alot to be learned here

Wonderful post - some here walk the walk. Some not so much. I'm trying to be open enough to feel that there is space for everyone to share... I struggle with that sometimes. Nice to have you here.

I think GMP is referring to people, not the institution. Religions are not religious, people are or are not.

Deci has a knack for expressing things that we have experienced in eloquent prose. Enlightening being is certainly one of her pearls.

Not particularly. There are many ways to build jin. The form is only one method. In yiquan, it is done with zhan zhuang. In bagua, it is the circle. In xingy, it is santishi. The basic issue is how one understands the nature of jin...

Ah, but my friend, why are you acting surprised? You are saying that you can bypass training with a partner and develop skill at pushing hands through special training methods - methods you are making up. Do you not find that peculiar???

It can't, only by feel. Words are a minor adjunct, whether written or spoken. If you want to practice pushing hands without a partner the best way is to simply practice zhan zhuang. If you build up to standing for a long period of time with your attention in your body (and beyond) and your mind quiet, then if you do eventually get instruction in pushing hands, you will progress MUCH faster. Certainly there is value to using training aids but, by itself, this approach won't take you very far. If you don't believe me, I'd suggest you practice this way for a year and then visit a tai ji class and push hands with someone who has been practicing for the same amount of time. See for yourself. Or just do it and enjoy, if it feels right to you - that's fine too.

A thread for anyone who wants to chat about the only pro sport that holds my interest lately... Enjoyable match between Cote d'Ivoire and Japan last night... I expected more from Japan.

Thanks for the reply and peace be with you as well... One last bit of information, because I am incorrigible - not everything can be transmitted by information. There is a realm of experience that transcends thought and can be pointed to by the written word but only understood experientially. This is why pushing hands can only be learned with a partner and the nature of mind usually requires the pointing out by a master (whether Daoist, Buddhist, Bön, Jewish, Jesuit, or Jain). Good luck with your cultivation. And I will do my best to maintain a friendlier demeanor, no matter what!

For me, the motivation and fascination starts at the other end of the cycle - the ngondro. Developing enough disgust with and exhaustion for cyclic existence to motivate me. Recognizing and appreciating the precious blessing of human life and exposure to the teachings to have the opportunity to be liberated and help liberate others. Feeling a deep heart connection to a teaching, a teacher, and a lineage. Feeling a deep heart connection to all other living things and seeing them as myself, my parents, my children, and wanting desperately to help relieve them of their pain, which is my pain. For me, things like rainbow body are so difficult to accept and relate to that I find them to be more of a distraction than a help. I don't believe in them and I don't rule out the possibility that they exist. I know what I know and I'm OK with not knowing rather than believing. And someone recently pointed out that I probably should even question everything that I think I know - thank you Amy! I can't tell if you are posting this because you believe in these stories or are questioning them. I've recently seen you questioning (and expressing disenchantment with) the fantastical stories of Chöd from Words of My Perfect Teacher and now you're posting similarly fantastical stories of ja lus. That must be frustrating and confusing (I'm not trying to be critical but supportive). For me, the best way to develop stability has been to simply practice and focus on what I can see and feel personally, and let go of the magical stuff.

Ultimately, our teacher is the unspeakable, Kuntu Zangpo as the Tibetans call it. We are not taught by people, we are taught by that which manifests through those people. This is why not everyone needs a human teacher. However, having a human teacher is helpful and necessary for most of us because we are not sensitive enough to listen, hear, and learn from the subtle essence that is truly teaching all of us. It is usually helpful to hear words, develop some intellectual clues, and be forced to quiet the mind and listen to what we already know and are. And what I find most interesting is that I don't know if you can really equate human teaching methods and realization. It seems that some "get it" with no instruction or a simple word or observation whereas others never get it, no matter what they do. This is why I think there is a real role and meaning for prayer and blessings on the path.

I'm not knowledgable at all about Yijing. My only involvement with it is my infatuation with a piece of music composed with it as its basis. Your posts are very stimulating, however. This may be a bit mundane but Brazil's recent world cup experience seems to reflect the Meeting.

The intent of the mind has ENORMOUS potential. If one never works on developing it in a specific and dedicated way, that is fine and the normal function of the mind will serve us as it is. The mind, like anything else, can be enhanced through the application of specific techniques and methods, very much like the body can be enhanced through exercise, and the physiology and energy enhanced through breathing work. The basic foundation of Daoist meditation methods is to develop the yi beyond it's normal everyday capacity. Every time I mention this to you, you simply disregard it as if it is meaningless. It is frustrating for me because I know how important it is and, like Ya Mu, I am impressed with how sincere and enthusiastic you are. But there is no denying (at least for those of us who have had training in this area) that you are missing an important piece that could enhance your understanding and experience profoundly. A relatively small amount of focused practice in working with the yi in a skillful manner (in our system the basic method is the microcosmic circulation, but there are others) could potentially open up your understanding of these precious writings dramatically. And your ability to read Chinese and speak English is such a blessing! Imagine how much you could help us if you could not only read the source materials but also have a deeper understanding through experiential practice of these subtle and profound methods... Anyway, sorry to ramble but I would hate to see you go. To be brutally honest, however, it's equally frustrating to read some of your posts knowing that with a little bit of training you could have such deeper appreciation of this material. So do what you've got to do but I hope you will take these words as they are intended - as a sincere and constructive appeal and offer of support. I would love to hear more about your understanding and experience of INTENT. My teacher always referred to yi as "mind of intent" and, as you say, this implied much more than the mundane idea of intention that occurs to us when hearing the English word such as what ChiDragon seems to be referring to. My shifu was also was a man of VERY few words and so my own understanding is almost exclusively based on direct experience rather than specific instruction or description. I will say that having a science background I get a bit confused when words like "quantum" are used in this arena because it doesn't always relate to the more classical usage of the word, but I am completely open to hearing more of your perspective either publicly or privately and will gladly share as well. We could certainly take the discussion elsewhere so as not to derail this thread, however, nothing is more fundamental to skillful taijiquan practice and why it is done slowly than this very subject so perhaps best to continue here. I'm sorry to see you go but your frustration is as much a consequence of your expectations as it is of ours. If you absolutely cannot accept the fact that there may be something missing from your approach to these teachings then you probably would be better off posting elsewhere because you will otherwise continue to be challenged here. Best wishes whatever you decide ChiDragon. I've been critical of you over the years but always with constructive intentions (except when I got very frustrated, perhaps). _/\_

ChiDragon, In the first of the four lines, you may want to use the word "intent" rather than intend, for grammatical reasons. What this is saying is that there is more to building jin than simply slow movement and breathing. While you may not need to know how it works, there is a need to actively engage the yi and mindfully connect with the movement. The yi needs to be developed, this is why Daoist meditation methods are so important in the internal arts. This is how one achieves the continuity, the wholeness, the flow. I'll have to disagree with the statement that with this approach you will build your jin "in no time." The one thing about jin is that there is no way to build it quickly. It only develops over a long period of time provided one maintains skillful training.

Are you sure about that?

I noticed that but I still don't take it the way you do. I think it is more an attempt to break down the structure that is one of the very things that prevents us from breaking through. And an attack on the institution that so often is oblivious and opportunistic. I don't see deci belle as wanting to maintain or propagate the status quo through assuming the mantle but rather bring it all down on our heads in order to shake us awake. And if deci belle responds to your accusation, it will simply look defensive. Take it as you will, Jack.

I think you are missing the point. Deci belle's post is an attempt to empower, not enslave... at least that's my interpretation. Then again, I've been accused of being idealistic and naive. I like it that way.

Fair enough, I won't derail this thread. Perhaps I will have an opportunity to learn more of your experiences in time. I suspect they were significant for you.

Is this a result? Each of us walks a solitary path. Comparing notes is as easily misleading as supportive. As you open more and become more sensitive and aware, you will see much, much more both internally and externally. Who's to say "exactly what this is"? It is Great Mystery! Enjoy the path.

Nice to hear from you deci belle - Your voice is crystal clear and warmly embraced. I'd like to quote a brief excerpt for emphasis: "The adage is, “See essence on your own, then see a teacher”. In this sense of tradition, it is using teacher AND sangha to mature the forgoing achievement, i.e.: seeing your essential nature. Perhaps there is not a vanity you yourself, at present, are able to work with? Here’s a clue: there is nothing else to work with other than the vanity of the false self."

Are you willing to elaborate on your direct intimate contact of deep knowledge goldisheavy? I'm genuinely interested.

I once had the direct experience of knowing that I am unborn and undying. The intensity has waned but the absolute certainty remains... And I have been conceived of a mother and father and am sitting here typing this note.

I think Argentina has more than Messi but I don't think it's enough to beat the Germans. I will miss it when its over... Nothing else really worth looking at on the telly.

I learned the other way around. I started with zhan zhuang and learning the slow form together. Later came zuo wang and later yet came the jin training. I think there are different ways to approach it.

The more I think about this the more I appreciate the opportunity this thread has given me. Here I am, criticizing a member while at the same time I'm appealing for civility in the Buddhist forum. What's up with that? ChiDragon - please accept my apology for being overly critical and aggressive. Goldisheavy - thanks for helping me to see myself a little more clearly. Great stuff for me - sorry it had to be at ChiDragon's expense. I love you all! _/\_