doc benway

I agree and it is also a problem with Tibetan Buddhism and anything else where the language and cultural allusions are misunderstood, misinterpreted, and archaic. It is so valuable when a teacher can translate this into a language and paradigm that the student can really grasp, both conceptually and non-conceptually. When the teacher cannot do this, how effective are they? This takes us back to deci belle's original point. The true teacher is our fundamental nature. The exceptional student can access that simply with attention and devotion. The middling student needs more guidance. The inferior student needs countless lifetimes... The exceptional teacher can lead you closer. The middling teacher can perhaps reinforce what you find yourself and point you in the right direction. The inferior teacher can lead you astray.

Yes, you did make the correction. I was simply pointing out my observation of how you are "learning" and attempting to teach taijiquan. If I am inaccurate, feel free to correct me.

Actually, CD's stance changes constantly. Wasn't it a few days ago that he posted that Jin would develop "in no time" if you did this or that? The one thing that hasn't changed is that CD's approach to Taiji training appears to be to read, then post his ideas, then adjust them based on whether or not the criticism of others makes sense to him - no personal instruction, no training with others. Maybe he practices the 24 forms. If that is his choice, that's fine with me. It is up to us to decide how seriously to take his posts. No harm or offense intended, CD, but I do think it's valuable to face facts.

The Natural State is not an achievement. One does not attain it. It's always already what you are, there's just a lot of other stuff in the way. It is not that difficult to experience. It is very difficult to integrate into every waking, sleeping, and dreaming moment. This is why the ultimate result is rare. If one is able to rest in the Natural State in each and every moment then you are correct that absolutely nothing else is necessary. Human beings, however, are generally unnecessary (edit) unable to do this, therefore all other "requirements" are important. If you look more seriously into Dzogchen you will see that the first major step on the path is the ngondro. These are a series of sutric and tantric practices to which dzogchenpo's commit their lives. You do not abandon the basics even when you are far along the path - it is the foundation, the lifeblood of maintaining the level of devotion and commitment necessary to continue. The following is not meant to be disrespectful but supportive. Your interpretation of what you've read about Dzogchen is a very common misunderstanding and is the reason why it has been heavily criticized by other Buddhist schools and practitioners. Many people look at it as an easy shortcut. It is very much a shortcut but is anything but easy. One has to be open, willing, and devoted to doing anything necessary - including keeping all promises and living one's relative life (all those moments while not resting in the Nature) in a way that is consistent with the basics - the four noble truths and so on. If the proper view and action is not there, there will be no rainbows. Asunthatneversets is very knowledgeable about Dzogchen and, although I've never asked specifically, I suspect he is actively or has spent a fair amount of time practicing and studying. I'd encourage you to be open to what he says, you could learn quite a bit from him.... assuming it is your intention to learn.

I like the word presence as well - very useful. Jean-Luc Achard, French translator of Tibetan Buddhist and Bön scripture, despises the word. Go figure... But back to my point, do you really mean that what is important is to "understand" the word? Understanding is the movement of thought. Or rather, access that to which it is pointing?

Excellent video - alot to be learned here

Wonderful post - some here walk the walk. Some not so much. I'm trying to be open enough to feel that there is space for everyone to share... I struggle with that sometimes. Nice to have you here.

I think GMP is referring to people, not the institution. Religions are not religious, people are or are not.

Deci has a knack for expressing things that we have experienced in eloquent prose. Enlightening being is certainly one of her pearls.

Not particularly. There are many ways to build jin. The form is only one method. In yiquan, it is done with zhan zhuang. In bagua, it is the circle. In xingy, it is santishi. The basic issue is how one understands the nature of jin...

Ah, but my friend, why are you acting surprised? You are saying that you can bypass training with a partner and develop skill at pushing hands through special training methods - methods you are making up. Do you not find that peculiar???

It can't, only by feel. Words are a minor adjunct, whether written or spoken. If you want to practice pushing hands without a partner the best way is to simply practice zhan zhuang. If you build up to standing for a long period of time with your attention in your body (and beyond) and your mind quiet, then if you do eventually get instruction in pushing hands, you will progress MUCH faster. Certainly there is value to using training aids but, by itself, this approach won't take you very far. If you don't believe me, I'd suggest you practice this way for a year and then visit a tai ji class and push hands with someone who has been practicing for the same amount of time. See for yourself. Or just do it and enjoy, if it feels right to you - that's fine too.

A thread for anyone who wants to chat about the only pro sport that holds my interest lately... Enjoyable match between Cote d'Ivoire and Japan last night... I expected more from Japan.

Thanks for the reply and peace be with you as well... One last bit of information, because I am incorrigible - not everything can be transmitted by information. There is a realm of experience that transcends thought and can be pointed to by the written word but only understood experientially. This is why pushing hands can only be learned with a partner and the nature of mind usually requires the pointing out by a master (whether Daoist, Buddhist, Bön, Jewish, Jesuit, or Jain). Good luck with your cultivation. And I will do my best to maintain a friendlier demeanor, no matter what!

For me, the motivation and fascination starts at the other end of the cycle - the ngondro. Developing enough disgust with and exhaustion for cyclic existence to motivate me. Recognizing and appreciating the precious blessing of human life and exposure to the teachings to have the opportunity to be liberated and help liberate others. Feeling a deep heart connection to a teaching, a teacher, and a lineage. Feeling a deep heart connection to all other living things and seeing them as myself, my parents, my children, and wanting desperately to help relieve them of their pain, which is my pain. For me, things like rainbow body are so difficult to accept and relate to that I find them to be more of a distraction than a help. I don't believe in them and I don't rule out the possibility that they exist. I know what I know and I'm OK with not knowing rather than believing. And someone recently pointed out that I probably should even question everything that I think I know - thank you Amy! I can't tell if you are posting this because you believe in these stories or are questioning them. I've recently seen you questioning (and expressing disenchantment with) the fantastical stories of Chöd from Words of My Perfect Teacher and now you're posting similarly fantastical stories of ja lus. That must be frustrating and confusing (I'm not trying to be critical but supportive). For me, the best way to develop stability has been to simply practice and focus on what I can see and feel personally, and let go of the magical stuff.

Ultimately, our teacher is the unspeakable, Kuntu Zangpo as the Tibetans call it. We are not taught by people, we are taught by that which manifests through those people. This is why not everyone needs a human teacher. However, having a human teacher is helpful and necessary for most of us because we are not sensitive enough to listen, hear, and learn from the subtle essence that is truly teaching all of us. It is usually helpful to hear words, develop some intellectual clues, and be forced to quiet the mind and listen to what we already know and are. And what I find most interesting is that I don't know if you can really equate human teaching methods and realization. It seems that some "get it" with no instruction or a simple word or observation whereas others never get it, no matter what they do. This is why I think there is a real role and meaning for prayer and blessings on the path.

I'm not knowledgable at all about Yijing. My only involvement with it is my infatuation with a piece of music composed with it as its basis. Your posts are very stimulating, however. This may be a bit mundane but Brazil's recent world cup experience seems to reflect the Meeting.

The intent of the mind has ENORMOUS potential. If one never works on developing it in a specific and dedicated way, that is fine and the normal function of the mind will serve us as it is. The mind, like anything else, can be enhanced through the application of specific techniques and methods, very much like the body can be enhanced through exercise, and the physiology and energy enhanced through breathing work. The basic foundation of Daoist meditation methods is to develop the yi beyond it's normal everyday capacity. Every time I mention this to you, you simply disregard it as if it is meaningless. It is frustrating for me because I know how important it is and, like Ya Mu, I am impressed with how sincere and enthusiastic you are. But there is no denying (at least for those of us who have had training in this area) that you are missing an important piece that could enhance your understanding and experience profoundly. A relatively small amount of focused practice in working with the yi in a skillful manner (in our system the basic method is the microcosmic circulation, but there are others) could potentially open up your understanding of these precious writings dramatically. And your ability to read Chinese and speak English is such a blessing! Imagine how much you could help us if you could not only read the source materials but also have a deeper understanding through experiential practice of these subtle and profound methods... Anyway, sorry to ramble but I would hate to see you go. To be brutally honest, however, it's equally frustrating to read some of your posts knowing that with a little bit of training you could have such deeper appreciation of this material. So do what you've got to do but I hope you will take these words as they are intended - as a sincere and constructive appeal and offer of support. I would love to hear more about your understanding and experience of INTENT. My teacher always referred to yi as "mind of intent" and, as you say, this implied much more than the mundane idea of intention that occurs to us when hearing the English word such as what ChiDragon seems to be referring to. My shifu was also was a man of VERY few words and so my own understanding is almost exclusively based on direct experience rather than specific instruction or description. I will say that having a science background I get a bit confused when words like "quantum" are used in this arena because it doesn't always relate to the more classical usage of the word, but I am completely open to hearing more of your perspective either publicly or privately and will gladly share as well. We could certainly take the discussion elsewhere so as not to derail this thread, however, nothing is more fundamental to skillful taijiquan practice and why it is done slowly than this very subject so perhaps best to continue here. I'm sorry to see you go but your frustration is as much a consequence of your expectations as it is of ours. If you absolutely cannot accept the fact that there may be something missing from your approach to these teachings then you probably would be better off posting elsewhere because you will otherwise continue to be challenged here. Best wishes whatever you decide ChiDragon. I've been critical of you over the years but always with constructive intentions (except when I got very frustrated, perhaps). _/\_

ChiDragon, In the first of the four lines, you may want to use the word "intent" rather than intend, for grammatical reasons. What this is saying is that there is more to building jin than simply slow movement and breathing. While you may not need to know how it works, there is a need to actively engage the yi and mindfully connect with the movement. The yi needs to be developed, this is why Daoist meditation methods are so important in the internal arts. This is how one achieves the continuity, the wholeness, the flow. I'll have to disagree with the statement that with this approach you will build your jin "in no time." The one thing about jin is that there is no way to build it quickly. It only develops over a long period of time provided one maintains skillful training.

Are you sure about that?

I noticed that but I still don't take it the way you do. I think it is more an attempt to break down the structure that is one of the very things that prevents us from breaking through. And an attack on the institution that so often is oblivious and opportunistic. I don't see deci belle as wanting to maintain or propagate the status quo through assuming the mantle but rather bring it all down on our heads in order to shake us awake. And if deci belle responds to your accusation, it will simply look defensive. Take it as you will, Jack.

I think you are missing the point. Deci belle's post is an attempt to empower, not enslave... at least that's my interpretation. Then again, I've been accused of being idealistic and naive. I like it that way.

Fair enough, I won't derail this thread. Perhaps I will have an opportunity to learn more of your experiences in time. I suspect they were significant for you.

Is this a result? Each of us walks a solitary path. Comparing notes is as easily misleading as supportive. As you open more and become more sensitive and aware, you will see much, much more both internally and externally. Who's to say "exactly what this is"? It is Great Mystery! Enjoy the path.

Nice to hear from you deci belle - Your voice is crystal clear and warmly embraced. I'd like to quote a brief excerpt for emphasis: "The adage is, “See essence on your own, then see a teacher”. In this sense of tradition, it is using teacher AND sangha to mature the forgoing achievement, i.e.: seeing your essential nature. Perhaps there is not a vanity you yourself, at present, are able to work with? Here’s a clue: there is nothing else to work with other than the vanity of the false self."