doc benway

You are both correct. The reason I questioned ChiDragon's authority and credibility is because he has provided so much misleading information on so many occasions over the years regarding topics involving Taijiquan and Daoist cultivation. It is not that important to me that information necessarily come from a teacher or a lineage or a big name, but if there is a long history of misinformation from a particular source, I tend to be skeptical (and perhaps overly critical). On the other hand, this moment is new and fresh and who knows what is possible. And you are correct goldisheavy, we are each responsible for what we accept and reject. It's not my job to make sure people present accurate or sensible information here, although I tend to act as if it is sometimes. I can be an ass and it's good time be reminded of that periodically. Peace y'all

My intention was never to validate the thread's contents before they were finished. When you present a definition with absolute authority, I think it's reasonable to question your resource. If you stated that the definitions were YOUR personal understanding through your study, then I would feel no need to question you and I would understand that your conclusions were YOUR opinion through your personal study (with or without a master). If you state that the definitions are THE Chinese Taoist definitions, then I cannot accept that unless you can show evidence that you have the authority to speak for all schools and practitioners. I hope you can see the difference here.

If you haven't done this yet, it might be a worthwhile investment of some time to look into the measured rotational axes of Earth, our solar system, our galaxy, and local reference points. Getting a sense of the direction you are facing relative to how we are positioned and moving relative to planet, solar system, galaxy, etc.. might be useful. You may find that you can feel it already, although I still feel it's helpful to check how what you feel compares to measured parameters.

If you are serious, do anything you can to find a credible teacher. If books are the only option, Nei Yeh is a great resource although quite cryptic (as are all alchemy writings - hence the need for a master). I also think that Bruce Frantzis' two books on Daoist meditation are two of the most practical and accessible books for someone who has no access to direct instruction. My training was in a very different method but I read through Bruce's books and incorporated his methods into my practice for a while and it is VERY powerful stuff. Personally, I don't like Dr. Yang's book very much for practical use. Lots of interesting translations but better as a reference than a guide, IMO.

Very cool stuff! Do you do any work connecting with Earth's core, rotational vectors or inertia, or larger scale awareness (solar system rotation, galactic vectors, and so forth)?

This is exactly why I am asking for information regarding your Daoist training and affiliation. You have asked us to accept your definitions without question. I am asking for some evidence of your credibility.

Your post has the suggestion of absolute certainty and authority. Can you tell us something about the Daoist sect and master(s) you have studied with? Is this "Chinese Taoist definition" accepted by all schools and practitioners?

Very nicely put! 心

Such a blessing when the teachings reach our mind/heart as opposed to being stuck in the brain. _/\_

Another wonderful post! I think that nothing is as effective at developing ting jin as zhan zhuang. I've never studied yi quan beyond a seminar or two but I've always been fascinated with it and zhan zhuang has also played a very fundamental role in my training. What sort of dog do you have? Sounds big! I'm a dog lover. I used to live with an English bulldog and because of their physique, they are incapable of cleaning their nether regions... hence I used to wipe worse things than water and saliva! But I loved her dearly and it was never a bother. No better advice has ever been given, IMO.... _/\_

Don't rule it out!

Great post and great question! I will meditate on this as well. Generating gratitude is a part of my daily practice. It is fundamental in taking refuge. My initial response is - While it may or may not make sense to be thankful "for my Self" or "for something that I am and that I do," it may make sense to be thankful for the recognition of that nature of Self. In ignorance, we experience a great deal of confusion and suffering. In awareness, we experience some degree of liberation from suffering. That awareness which leads to liberation is a blessing. It has no predictable or reproducible cause, therefore, it's unexpected and greatly welcomed appearance is the genesis of gratitude.

Thanks for the helpful comments Daeluin... There's a lot of history here and I would also be happy to discuss further with you privately to avoid any further conflict. I would do better to be more circumspect and less concerned with pointing out errors and inconsistencies in others' posts. _/\_

Hence the emphasis on mindfulness in Buddhism, it is the mundane key that many of us take for granted.

I appreciate your comments and efforts to help me understand. While the thig le nyag gcig is certainly not a thing consisting of parts, it does represent an underlying nature and a wholeness, or completeness, e.g. Complete Perfection, no? And while this may not imply a big, happy One-ness that includes everything and everyone a la Brahman, there is some sort of sense of completeness, a single taste, isn't there? Nothing is excluded. And I don't mean to imply the universality of such nature, but I also don't mean to exclude it. That shared nature is empty of any characteristics, 'like' the sky, and even empty of itself and yet that emptiness is not an absence because it is the nature of all the various manifestations. Hence the importance of understanding the fault of the four extremes. We certainly need to guard against the extreme of eternalism. Similarly, we need to guard against nihilism. Some of the earlier comments in this thread border nihilism, IMO. Anyway, sorry to ramble. I'm not very good with the words and I appreciate the constructive criticism and information. I spend much more time practicing than studying, for better or worse...

Deci is often spot on... I miss her, eccentricity and all.

Sorry I'm not a better teacher. Peace

This post is very cogent for me right now. I spent over a decade practicing taijiquan as a martial art. I was happy to benefit from the other qualities but didn't really think or care about it much. My meditative practice took me to some places that have changed me. My values and priorities have changed. I have very little interest any longer in martial training. I find that cultivating love, compassion, and relationships is something that will be of more consequence to me at this point in my life and moving forward. I still practice form and circle walking, but now there is no martial intent. Oh it pops up constantly, applications jump into my mind as I do the movement, but I'm slowly trying to let that go - just for me, not because I think it is 'right' or 'better' for anyone else. I do think that having a solid understanding of the martial aspect makes the internal martial arts even more effective for healthy, well being, spiritual, and energetic development. This is because understanding and respecting the martial principles generally insures more anatomically and physiologically efficient posture, movement, and breathing. That said, if one learns these principles, I think the martial component can be abandoned for those that have no taste for that aspect.

As requested by the Dragon of Chi - Discussion of neigong throughout this thread: Sorry if I missed any and I hope no one minds that I took the liberty of editing posts for brevity...

I practice Chen Pan Ling's 99 Forms, as he called it. Fantastic form and like you say, it is full of martial applications. The possibilities are only limited by our imagination. There is bagua and xingyi mixed in. Great story about Master Chang. My guess is that Master Chang used heng quan on you (if it was xingyi) or lone phoenix at dawn (if bagua). Both good moves to get behind an opponent. The beautiful thing about Chen Pan Ling's method was how he created a systematic approach to the training. My teacher learned from another of his senior students, Chen Jin Pao.

Funny, neigong has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread but I guess you didn't notice. Not trying to take anything away from NotVoid, the posts were excellent, but it certainly wasn't the first time that neigong was mentioned.

I appreciate your sincere reply. While we certainly don't need to be warm and fluffy all the time, I'm hoping to appeal to the sincere practitioner in you and others (myself included) to look at this place in a different light. What if we viewed the Buddhist sub-forum here as a Gompa of sorts and treated the space with respect as we (hopefully) treat the teachings? More and more the web is being used for legitimate teachings and empowerments. The potential is limitless as long as we create the right environment. What if we were to treat others here with respect, knowing that they were once our parents or children? At least, those of us who take this stuff seriously and try to live it. The others are free to agree, disagree, believe, disbelieve - it's fine. It's all part of the thig le nyag gcig, no? When folks act like spoiled children, moderators will deal with them appropriately, and sincere practitioners will show some compassion and disengage if necessary. I think this is a better strategy than throwing rocks. I recently returned from a short retreat and went to my neighbor's house to do them a favor. The whole family did nothing but hammer me with questions, knowing that I'd been on retreat, challenging and trying to poke holes in my answers whenever they didn't make sense with their non-Buddhist world view. I think folks feel insecure about their place in the world and whenever someone seems a bit too comfortable or seems to have some answers, they attack them, looking for weaknesses. Then when they find a weakness, they feel better about their own insecurity. It's quite dysfunctional and sad but rather than get angry and feed into the conflict we can practice compassion. Anyway, I may sound fluffy and idealistic and maybe a bit arrogant, and I can live with that. But I am being sincere here. There are a few folks on the forum who are genuine practitioners and some who are quite knowledgeable and I think that we can be better than this. But those who do have the goods need to set the example. Otherwise we'll just keep circling the intellectual drain...

Nice post. The first step in achieving some skill in the neigong you describe is developing Ting Jin (聽勁) or listening/sensing energy. Until we can listen and feel the opponent, we have no hope of reacting and neutralizing, not to mention counter-attacking. The only way to develop ting jin is to first be quiet. You can't hear or feel if you are noisy or distracted. This is why they talk about stillness in movement in taijiquan. First you pay attention to the inside of yourself, then to the environment, and lastly to the opponent. This can only come from quiet and stillness.

I try to appeal for some kindness and restraint and all you can do is be critical of me. I've tried to maintain some hope that this could be a place that is supportive and warm, where we can interact and share and help each other rather than criticize and denigrate one another. I'm beginning to realize that it's not possible on an open forum. Is that all you could see in my post? How would you describe your contributions? Very sad if this is the behavior of someone who has been authorized to offer Dzogchen transmission. It reflects quite poorly on your teachers. I wonder how they would feel reading these posts of yours? Then what is it exactly that you are doing here?

The result depends on many more factors than simply the individual's understanding but that is one important element. For this reason, it is important that a practitioner learn the system from an accomplished master who has realized and integrated the system in her life. When we try to learn in other ways (books, videos, trial and error), it is inevitable that our own expectations, bias, and conditioning color our experience and progress. When we learn from a realized master, we are learning directly from the lineage of the "original system," to whatever degree that still exists.