doc benway

All of that is very true and I think there is more. I think that there are many people out there (most?) who are too focused on the words and concepts and not focused enough on the experience and integration. The internet is a tool created by thought which reinforces and magnifies the central role that discursive and conceptual thought has assumed in our lives. The conceptual mind is only one aspect of our pursuit of dharma. I suspect that many "practitioners" are unbalanced in their approach and the internet has a tendency to accentuate that imbalance. It certainly takes time away from my own practice. I think if each of us looks honestly at how much time we read, how much time we utilize the internet, and how much time we spend in dedicated meditation practice, we would most likely find ourselves most lacking in the latter.... I was very imbalanced as recently as a year ago. I'm lucky enough now to have a teacher and teachings that I'm devoted to so that imbalance has improved greatly. When I think of the amount of time that monastics dedicate to the various aspects of the path, I know that I could do much, much more...

I'm more referring to folks on internet forums. The people I've met at retreats are definitely more practice oriented. The people I've interacted with online tend to be more wrapped up in the conceptual side - I guess that's to be expected. Bottom line - I need to focus on myself and what I want out of my practice and study.

Maybe no need to emphasize but at least acknowledge, given that so many "practitioners" are so wrapped up in the conceptual and are deluded by thought that practice is not equally (more, in my opinion) important.

I would argue that recognition of the dichotomy between oral (experiential) transmission and written text serves to enhance and enrich, rather than undermine the latter. The dichotomy is not arbitrary until one is able to rest in the nature of mind without interruption. Until that time, there is differentiation between conceptual and non-conceptual. The teachings must be understood to the fullest extent possible both with and without the conceptual mind. One will never gain familiarity and stability resting in the nature of mind through engagement of the conceptual mind. And without that familiarity and stability, one will not recognize and integrate the fact that both are of one taste, the foundation of making progress in Dzogchen. I had the good fortune to attend a teaching on one of the "innermost secret" teachings from the Zhangzhung Nyengyü, the 21 Little Nails (or Seals). The text is highly esoteric and tends to stimulate engagement of conceptual and discursive thought when studied. One wants desperately to 'figure it out' through definition and comparison. Rinpoche's teachings on it, however, took a completely different approach. He was able to directly connect the core principle of each of the Nails to our lives in our body, speech, and mind, as a result of his own personal experience and understanding of the text. He was able to help us see the text through his life experience and decades of study. He then was able to guide us to that place through direct application in our practice. One would never achieve such an understanding, IMO, through a study of the core text and commentary, no matter how thorough. These teachings were never meant to be communicated solely through the written word and the intellect. They were intended to be communicated through the life and experience of the guru, hence the requirement for experiential transmission. In fact, most of the texts would never be offered to the student without direct transmission because of the high likelihood of misunderstanding and misapplication. This is why such teachings, like the 21 Little Nails, are restricted, not because there is an intention to prevent others from benefiting from the teachings. The misconception is that there is some magical, energetic transmission that is required. While certainly I won't exclude the possibility that this does occur, the magic I have experienced is in having the good fortune to encounter a dedicated and experienced master who is able to lead one to real understanding, the ability to connect one's life and actions directly to the teachings. These teachings were never intended to be understood primarily through the conceptual mind so that we intellectually comprehend the nature of reality. They were intended to enrich our lives, to enhance our experience of life, and to lead us to manifest enlightened qualities in a direct and practical way. If we are not behaving in a more loving and compassionate way in our every day lives; if we are not experiencing deepening devotion, gratitude, and trust in our hearts for the teachings and teacher, then the teachings are absolutely worthless to us.

This thread is about wisdom in Dzogchen, not sutra and tantra.

I'll disagree with you here GM. I suspect he uses the title on several levels. This is Dzogchen - all is spontaneously perfected and primordially pure. His teacher is Samantabhadra. His guru represents the entire lineage as a manifestation of this. "Perfect teacher" is also a hint at the level of devotion required of these practices. I'm quite sure he recognizes the human imperfections of his guru but that is also a fact of what is and is therefore an element of perfection.... The title is not meant to imply gullibility.

Great posts everyone - thank you for that. A simple example of an outrageous concept in Tibetan Buddhism is the rainbow body. That's no less difficult to assimilate than chopping off an arm or two to feed a demon. I think there is a way to approach such challenging stories, at least for me, which doesn't become credulous and yet also doesn't exclude the possibility that there are things beyond what I can currently accept. Accepting everything the teacher says on faith is certainly not a healthy approach and was not advocated by the Buddhas, or my teacher. On the other hand, we can remain open and actively look for ways to relate to things that seem outrageous and sometimes we find that there is something there that touches us or changes us and we see things differently. Suddenly what seemed ridiculous or outlandish becomes real in a way we didn't expect. Not sure I'm making much sense but I've had this experience...

There is a strong current of sacrifice in Buddhism - it is the foundation of the Mahayana. Chöd - the ritual of offering oneself (literally - cutting) is a tantric practice of transformation through sacrificing one's body and is found in India and Tibet. It is designed to expose the practitioner to extreme fear, an effective way to help us let go of attachment and aversion and find certainty in selflessness. While the stories may be shocking and extreme, there are many instances in all cultures of people sacrificing their health, wealth, bodily organs, and even their life for others - it happens every day. It is up to you as to whether you think it is important to take such stories literally or as allegory. What counts is that the practices are extremely effective... for some people, certainly not for everyone. In my view, there is no need for belief in Buddhism. It is preferable, IMO, to know what can be known, and accept not knowing in place of belief. In this way we can work with the practices and develop real certainty. When belief comes into the picture, there is much less stability because there is no real certainty.

Not sure what a taoist would say but I dig my sig...

Wonderful quote. Thank you Manitou and thank you Spotless. I feel what you are trying to communicate. I have no idea where I would fall on a scale of Awakening but I'm awake enough to know that I am dreaming... In another thread, Gatito eloquent mentioned the experience of when "pure consciousness gave itself a glimpse of itself shining in all its glory in the complete absence of objects and time." When there is the occurrence of this "self-knowledge," I'll call it, there is a certainty that is incorruptible and unshakeable. That certainty establishes the truth about love and our basic nature. It is certainly not perfect and complete or continuous for those of us still bouncing around in samsara, more a fleeting glimpse that informs the rest of our days and serves as both an anchor to stabilize us and a beacon to guide us. It seems as if it is that which is making decisions, as you say. Or perhaps there's really no decision to be made in the first place. The thought which claims the title 'thinker' assumes the responsibility to 'weigh options and consequences' based on memory and expectations, and then claims to have 'made the decision.' Wash, rinse, repeat... Is that the true nature of what is happening? I still frequently get in the way and struggle with things for a while before I remember to let go... Then the moral and ethical problems vanish into the pure space of being and the dance of experience continues to play itself out.

Repeated for emphasis - well said.

I'm currently reading a wonderful book called Stars of Wisdom by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche. One section of the book includes two songs of Milarepa and associated commentary. Milarepa sings about the wonderful nature of all those things with which we struggle. The worse the adversity, the more he likes it - fear, pain, confusion, anger, demons, bullies - one challenge is better than the next. Each challenge gives him the opportunity to look at who it is that is experiencing the adversity and the thoughts associated with the experience and, voila, there is nothing there to find - how wonderful! Many very inspiring things in Milarepa's songs. On the other hand, I don't personally subscribe to the zen approach of forced sitting and enduring pain - not my current path. But I do think the idea of taking pain and whatever challenges present themselves in our lives as our path for recognizing emptiness (attaining wisdom) is skillful means.

Not sure that the why or how matter much either...

I still remember watching that faux-pas...

It is only limiting if we think we know something, as you say. I did not say intend to imply that at all. That is a common misconception and is at the heart of the intention of my post. We simply take for granted that we know and file that away and assume its independent of everything else that we focus on in our spiritual and metaphysical games. And in each of the experiences that you reference, do you know it to be true that they are independent of your personal biological apparatus and neuronal activity? Can you prove that or is it an assumption based on the content or character of each of these experiences you mention? Either assertion, that our sphere of experience is linked to our biology or that it is not, is equally presumptuous although from the relative reality we inhabit, your implication is a bit more gratuitous. Edited to add- And to be clear, my concept of what's going on is constantly changing and adapting to new information and experience, I don't mean to be as dogmatic as I may have sounded... I really don't know the hell what is going on but I would rather know or not know than believe... I'm just making a plea for us to pay attention to the magic that is right in front of our noses rather than get too distracted by the creation of our thoughts and ideas of what may be.

Energy is very relevant to me as well. In fact, it is what I is. We are all manifestations of energy - our physical being, our movement, everything we see hear, taste, feel, and think... What I find really curious is how many people completely take for granted all of that and focus on energy as some magical something or other that is separate from all of that. A tingling they can move around an orbit or a spark that can ignite some paper. All of manifestation is simply energy and our experience of it is a simple consequence of our biological sensory apparatus. Different apparatus or tuning, different experience, same energy... I think that a lot of the various energy methods help us to tune our sensory apparatus in a way such that we're able to experience different aspects of the energetic milieu around us.

We will have to simply disagree... A (?The) fundamental focus of Buddhism is to relieve sentient beings of suffering. Suffering, in part, is resistance to our aversions and things which cause us pain of any sort. In fact, pain is a simple physiological experience, like seeing a very bright light or hearing a loud, startling noise. It does not become suffering until the "I" gets involved and tries to avoid it. When that "I" is less prominent in our lives, the physiological response we label 'pain' remains, but the suffering part eases. This is a very important point because it is why Buddhist practices are of such profound value to people who suffer. Hence spirituality is clearly associated with our relationship to pain, whether physical, emotional, or psychological. I agree that there is no need to torture oneself with pain. Life will do that to us from time to time, whether we choose it or not. We all deal with pain, in our lives, in our practice, and on internet forums. I think you are overemphasizing the brief mention of pain in this excerpt. It is mentioned, almost in passing, by the student and never mentioned at all in the master's reply. In my experience with Japanese martial arts, there is a cultural proclivity toward discipline and overcoming adversity, even physical pain, which is much less present in other cultures. Even if it is our judgement that this is an unskillful approach (no opinion intended here), it does not negate the master's response which never addressed physical pain specifically. In my perspective, if you are interested at all in that, you're making this all about the pain and dismissing everything else the master (and student) says as a result - throwing out the baby with the bathwater, as they say. I don't see it that way.

Bosnia-Herz is looking tough!

Fair enough, thanks

Why explore a system that is closed?

Uh oh

I'm European American, nor do I. The English seemed a bit sluggish in their first match... Best of luck!

...fitting Congrats!

Enjoy your well deserved rest. The place will probably go to hell without you but it'll be good for us! <3