doc benway

Good point about that aspect of allowing. I am using allowing in a similar way - openness without reactivity, letting things be as they are without judgement, either grasping or aversion. We can allow (or accept) what shows up for us or punish ourselves because life isn't exactly what we would prefer it to be. Different words, same sentiment.

First I need you to show me the color green in words so that I know with certainty how the word green relates to your visual experience right now. Then explain the taste of a mango so that I can taste it, even if I've never had that experience. For communication to be effective and unambiguous, the words need to point to an experience that each party can relate to. Non-arising may be a phrase you don't like but how else to describe the direct experience of that which was never born, can never die, and is always renewing in each and every instant? It's more than just translating technical Tibetan terminology, it's communicating an experience of something that is very precise and yet very difficult to put into words. Clear realization may not be a phrase you want to hear but how else to describe the moment when you feel like you've been hit over the head with a brick and feel, deeper than you ever thought possible, the absolute knowledge of exactly what you are and what everything is and it changes your life forever in profound ways? It's not clear realization of just anything, it is clear realization of the nature of being. It is quite specific and not at all subtle and anyone who has had that experience will know exactly what the Rigpa Rangshar is pointing to. I wish I could make you understand how a mango tastes through words but I can't. I can say it's sour and sweet but does that capture the essence of mango flavor? I don't know what Kyle feels or knows or what his experience has been. Maybe it's just the skillful selection of quotations or maybe he's had a glimpse and can directly relate to those quotations. Only he can tell us that and it's not easy to open up and share these experiences with people, especially anonymous people who tend to be harshly critical rather than supportive and loving. And it's possible that I'm completely full of shit and just saying the right words and parroting and that is a limitation of this mode of anonymous, impersonal communication.

This is a subtle semantic comment that you may or may not resonate with. I've been favoring the word allow over accept recently. Sometimes, when we tell ourselves to accept and are having difficulty with it, we can get a bad feeling, a feeling of failure or incompetence. And sometimes, things may be so onerous that perhaps we should not accept and yet me may not be able to change whatever it is. On the other hand, allow, at least for me connotes less agreement but a similar lack of resistance. FWIW

I sit in the Burmese posture for most meditation. I lie down for certain specific methods.

Interesting how you attack the quotation and the person offering it to you, rather than look at your own inability to make use of it at this point in your life. Just like you did with the word basis. This is a great example of how we impute our ills and suffering on things and people outside of us when the fundamental issue is our own ignorance. i don't mean to attack you personally but I think this sort of thing is a great opportunity for learning for all of us and I hope you're open enough to look at this. it is a pattern that we all tend towards. If you don't want to look at it, that's fine to and it is your karma. The quote is actually brilliant, concise, and absolutely clear, if you've had the experience, but unhelpful and incomprehensible if you have no frame of reference to relate it to. So it is two very different things to two different, intelligent people who are speaking the same language. This is a clue to the emptiness of concepts and ideas, even the concept of Buddhahood. A more concrete analogy is how humans and fish experience water. Water is water yet fish breath it and humans drown in it. It is home to fish and a bath for people. Both view it with direct and valid cognition but in completely different ways, therefore water cannot have any true existence from its own side and yet it is certainly not non-existent as we drink it daily.

I never find your posts to be an interruption. Another reminder for me of empty nature is the inability to isolate anything.

Really? And you had the audacity to bust my balls for using the word basis? It's good to see you've been able to answer your question. What counts is how much that will help you with integration. I hope it works for you.

I think it's important that we not be too bound to our ideas of what emptiness is, what wisdom is, what the nature of mind is, how it all works, and so forth. Anything we can conceptualize is not it. No matter how right it feels, the mind cannot capture it. I think we can get tied up and distracted by our ideas about what we are looking for and the looking itself and then the process can really takes decades, as Anderson mentioned, or countless lives. I think that Apech's comments are spot on. We need to be very cautious and skeptical about the experiences and interpretations we share with each other because few of us are accomplished masters and even if we have gained some understanding or experienced these things directly, communicating those things is difficult. Certainly we can get a sense of things from the writings and teachings of the great masters. For me, the Beacon of Certainty by Mipham Rinpoche (as interpreted in Journey to Certainty by Anyen Rinpoche) really struck a cord because it bridges the intellectual work and the non-conceptual and puts both in perspective. We can read the Dzogchen writings over and over and we become inured to the beautiful language and can connect at some level due to our meditative experiences but we can easily fool ourselves into thinking we are farther along the path than we really are. All (?most) of us are still at a level where the thinking mind is a major influence on our lives and so the work of the thinking mind remains important for us at this point. So when we are not effortlessly resting in the wisdom of the nature of mind in every waking and sleeping moment, we can engage the thinking mind to help us along the path, rather than hinder us. And I think this is where all of our other practices are so important, whether it be study of the masters, mantra, guru yoga, bodhicitta, taking refuge, mindfulness, etc... Not sure if this is even relevant but it just kind of came up. I genuinely wish all of you (and me) good fortune and blessing in our efforts to come closer to truly realizing the nature of mind and integrating it into our lives in order to be of benefit to all sentient beings! E MA HO!

I don't know what you are referring to but methinks all martial forums end up the same way...

I don't know that it is a trick which leads us to infer solidity and reify our experience... this seems to be the way living things function in their experience of relative reality. I think that as humans, we have somehow become very dissatisfied with our lives and we cause ourselves enormous difficulty through our thought processes. These teachings give us a method to see what is going on behind the curtain. Things are truly empty as CT and all the sages tell us, and there can be a direct and unquestionable experience of that. On the other hand, it is not the usual manner of perception and experience in our realm and when people talk about it and others don't see it, it can be a very frustrating and annoying experience for all involved...

It makes a lot of sense and you know more about Dzogchen than you realize.

Actually, I think I did answer the question. The question was more about integration than defining the natural state. IMO, examples don't really mean anything. It's more about developing the view and developing certainty and confidence in that and bringing into our lives. You're correct - we are in samsara but we are fortunate enough to have been exposed to wonderful teachings and teachers and can put that into practice. That I can't answer for you. It could be in an instant or never... Sorry you don't like that word. I actually like it - it gives that sense of continuity and pervasiveness of knowing that is necessary. At first it certainly requires a lot of effort and mindfulness. Over time (hopefully) it occurs more naturally and effortlessly.

Wisdom is the basis. In day to day circumstances, it is the knowledge of the true nature of things as they truly are, not simply as they appear to be. Or something like that... At least that's what I work towards.

Very glad to hear you are seeing good response to treatment. In the interest of accuracy and education, spiral fractures are usually the fastest to heal. This is for two reasons - - the more surface area of bony contact, the more rapid and solid the healing - spiral fractures are lower energy injuries so there is less soft tissue stripping and less vascular compromise to the bone

I like that idea

If you are not going to stick with your current teacher and system, I'd recommend that you find a local teacher that has a good reputation and focus more on the quality and credibility of teaching and less on your (and our) guesses as to which system will compliment your Choy Lee Fut. Any credible system taught by a master will be valuable. Choosing a practice because of how they are labeled (Daoist, Buddhist, yoga) will be much less reliable, IMO. Worst of all is trying to DIY from a book or video when it comes to internal arts. Just one biased opinion to add to the mix. Good luck! PS the version of Shiba Luohan Qigong that I practice is one of the best Qigong forms I've ever encountered... If I were you, I'd try to change my schedule and study that within the same system as my Gongfu.

I couldn't agree more. I've never intended to insult the Mo Pai - just looking to minimize the disruption caused by the posers and their bickering. The question then becomes, how best to respect their wishes? I think that keeping discussion of the system from being searchable may be the best way to do that. Banning discussion is probably not reasonable or consistent with the mission of the board. But if the discussion is not searchable, at least we're not calling unnecessary attention to those that are compelled to. I have changed my vote to No regarding a separate sub-forum and Yes to NOT allowing the material to be searchable... It doesn't really follow the way the question was asked but so it goes. One option would be to limit Mo Pai discussion to the Pit or PPF's - neither are searchable. Threads started on the subject or diversions can be moved and repeat offenders can be cautioned or sanctioned if necessary... That way we don't have to censor discussion and, at the same time, respect the wishes of the authentic lineage to be left alone.

Perhaps what the OP was really asking about was how not to live wrapped up in our thoughts, whether past, future, or present. Certainly we can never be away from the present. The five senses and thought consciousness always manifest in the present. And yet most of us, most of the time, are slaves to the narrator that claims the title of "me." We are not aware that we are not aware. We are dwelling in the past and future and being dragged around on all kinds of adventures and mis-adventures. For me, more often than not, these distractions are a threat assessment or an attraction of some sort. Many different approaches out there and we all have different aptitudes. The most important first step, IMO, is to be aware that we are not aware; to be aware of the incessant chatter and distraction. I personally don't like the method of narrating everything I do to myself as it reinforces the power and role of the narrator. For me, it is as easy as noticing whether or not I am present, or off on an adventure. As soon as I notice, I'm back. Then it becomes an issue of maintenance - that's really tough! That is why mindfulness has such a central role in Buddhism. Not necessarily because it is an end, in and of itself (although some might argue it is) but because it is the essential element necessary to successfully integrate our training into our daily lives. So I recommend simply practicing awareness. Pay attention to whether or not you are paying attention. It may help to wear a simple piece of jewelry like a mala, anything that can be a reminder throughout the busy day. Lots of experts and systems out there to choose from. The most important thing is to find what works for you.

Because she told me that was the reason why she wasn't interested in MY proposal, silly!

It's more a question of why attach oneself to a completely inaccessible and unknown system. It's quite a commitment and comes with absolute knowledge that it can never be taken beyond the tease stage. Remarkably similar to making the decision to marry Scarlett Johansson... Oh well, different strokes I guess. If you decide to go that route I'd help out as well, though with not quite as much enthusiasm as the green tiger! I think the primary reason is the lust for magical powers and some imaginary idea of immortality. That said, I don't know much about the system. Never read the books. Just looked at some videos and read some of the internet mess.

You expose yourself here Paul from Nicaragua. If you were "better than that" you would not be making such generalizations and slandering all Christians and Muslims, now would you? Either the way you follow is no better or you are not following the way yourself. Later...

Can someone explain to me why anyone cares about Mo Pai in the first place? 1. If you are not living in and ethnically Indonesian there is 0 chance that you can receive any direct, credible training - ever. 2. If you are not Indonesian there is 0 chance that you will ever learn beyond the most rudimentary basics. 3. No Westerner has ever completed the beginning training, let alone intermediate or advanced. 4. Those who do claim to be practitioners in the West show absolutely no evidence that the training has done anything beneficial for them... certainly not by their interaction with others online. In fact, the highest level Mo Pai practitioner in the West died very young of cancer... I don't get it at all... As far as I'm concerned the forum would be better off if all Mo Pai discussion was either - 1. Banned 2. Put in a single thread or sub-forum, preferably in the pit BKA (I believe) once posted a statistic regarding how many folks come here solely looking for info on Mo Pai. Based on what I see of the majority of folks primarily interested in Mo Pai, the forum would be better off without attracting them. For that reason, I think it would be good for the forum if the Mo Pai bullshit were not searchable. I doubt this post will improve my popularity marks but the Mo Pai foolishness is ridiculous and is a stain on this forum, rather than the other way around.

Two approaches immediately come to mind - 1. A thorough study and understanding of emptiness, which is the approach Mipham advocates in his Beacon of Certainty 2. Tögal, which must be rooted in a stable practice of trekchö

Let us know what you think, I have mixed feelings about Dowman's translations. Not that I know anything about translating Tibetan but some of his choices seem ... ?? On a related note, I just finished:

Congrats Dawei! Thank you, Trunk, for your selfless contributions to the board.