doc benway

I have to agree with you on this. Also, base, path, and fruition. To the OP - I have a close friend who has become enamored of triangles, pyramids, and the star of David. He built some out of copper tubing and has used it to purify and energize water, food, and in meditation. As for me, I don't mess with it much but I do have a lot of respect for my friends insights and discoveries. Have fun with it!

I won't claim to be "well versed" in the natural state, although I do have a little experience and training. Based on my (limited) experience, thoughts continue to arise and pass while resting in the Nature. The difference is that as I become more stable resting in the Nature, the thoughts are seen to arise from nowhere, dwell in emptiness, and liberate spontaneously, without being a disturbance. Similarly, the "I" that is resting will periodically arise, dwell, and liberate, as do the other thoughts, while the clarity or knowing continues in that emptiness and spaciousness. When not resting in the Nature, a thought comes and takes me with it. I become that thought and follow wherever it takes me for however long it has me in its grasp. Then as the thought lets me go, I return to 'myself' until the next takes me away. When resting in the Nature, the thought arises, dwells for however long it will, then vanishes back to its essence and that essence is not felt to be any different from the 'me' that is abiding. Almost as if one feels that one is the ocean and the thoughts and feelings and impulses are simply waves and swells, manifestations certainly, but not other than the resting. And the clarity does not become focused, limited, or entangled by the thought. Very tough to verbalize for me, and I hesitate to do so because I'm certainly not qualified to guide or teach anyone and dot want to mislead, but so far I can say that the thoughts continue to arise while I practice. All of my readings and instruction have also confirmed this to be the case with more advanced practitioners. Please don't misunderstand my original post and subsequent comments and quotations. The Nature is NOT the gap between thoughts. The Nature is NOT the absence of thought (well it is, but that is only one manifestation). As CT points out, the Nature is that from/in which thought and non-thought, action and non-action manifest. It is not other and is never not the foundation. The motivation behind this thread and these quotations is that I once mentioned this idea of finding that space or gap between thoughts as a tool to help us (beginners) enter into meditation. I received much criticism for it (some quite harsh and disrespectful) and so as I have continued to see great masters using this same tool in their teachings, I've been compelled to start and add such quotations to this thread. I should probably just let the topic go as I really don't have any interest in persuading others to follow a teaching that they disagree with. On the other hand, I did (and do) feel quite vindicated to have found so much support from great masters and teachers for what was originally a simple technique that came to me quite naturally. I do think this is a valid and useful tool and I think the topic has generated some quality discussion. Thanks to all who have contributed!

I said that I can't describe it (to be more accurate, I choose not to try as I don't consider myself enough of an authority to do so)… I didn't say that the Carefree Vagrant couldn't. In fact, I quoted him because I think he does a good job of it … As far as the rest of your post goes, I've already addressed most or all of those points in earlier comments so I won't respond point by point. I would like to add this, however - I suspect that the vast majority of folks participating in this forum are beginners or less (as am I) in their Dzogchen practice. Until one is able to find some stability in the Nature, it's VERY difficult to remain there, undisturbed, as thoughts arise, dwell in mind, and liberate, or while engaging in activity off the cushion. Not only that, it's VERY difficult (perhaps I should say impossible) to even recognize the Nature in the midst of mental chatter, let alone stabilize it, for anyone other than an advanced practitioner. As my teacher recently emphasized, this is a lifelong practice, not something we master in a few months or even a few years. So far I've quoted from Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, Sakya Pandita, and Shechen Gyaltsab Pema Namgyal. I've heard Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche speak of this in his teachings, and if I'm not mistaken he mentions it in Wonders of the Natural Mind, although I can't quote the page offhand, and I may be mistaken. I would bet that other teachers use this concept as well. Rather than taking the time to research this point, I prefer to simply make note as I come across examples, as I'm doing here. I suspect that these masters and teachers of Dzogchen use this aspect of meditation in their teachings, because they find (found) it to be of some value to practitioners. I acknowledge that you, Paul, and a few others don't like this approach - I respect your privilege to practice as you see fit. As for me, if the masters use a concept repeatedly in their teachings (gap between thoughts, mirror analogy, preciousness of human birth, etc…), I prefer to diligently look for how it can be useful to me in my practice, rather than focus on why I (a rank amateur) think it is of no use. In my own practice, I generally do not enter into the Natural State with thoughts in mind, although it certainly can be done. I allow thoughts to settle through appropriate shamatha practice(s). Once there is some stability, I am then able to rest in the Nature for periods of time and allow the process of thoughts to arise, dwell, and liberate, without being distracted. Similarly, when I am distracted by thoughts and find myself out of the Nature, I often bring myself back by exploiting that space that exists after the last thought has liberated and before the next arises. This is how I was instructed but just because this works for me, it is not necessarily appropriate for everyone. I find the concept a very useful starting point and suspect that other practitioners may as well, hence the continued quotations from the masters. Another method as you allude to is, in fact, to focus on the distracting thought until it is liberated and then turn back to look for the observer. The two mutually liberate. This is also a very useful technique and a good way to enter or return to the Nature when distracted. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Yes No No… it is neither of those things, and also, yes - it may exhibit either of those displays.

Another quotation pointing at the space between thoughts. This one is by Shechen Gyaltsab Pema Namgyal, excerpted from Perfect Clarity by Marcia Binder Schmidt, et al: "Well, what is meditation then? When your past thought has ceased and your future thought has not yet arisen and you are free from conceptual reckoning in the present moment, then your genuine and natural awareness, the union of being empty and cognizant, dawns as the state of mind, which is like space - that itself is dzogchen transcending concepts, the cutting through of primordial purity, the open and naked exhaustion of phenomena." Whether or not you like the "aiming at the space between thoughts" idea, I find this to be an eloquent description of the natural state.

Hi Aaron, Nice to hear from you. I hope you're doing well. Here are a few good books - To Pray as a Jew by Hayim Donin Jewish Literacey by Joseph Telushkin Jewish Meditation by Aryeh Kaplan Inner Space by Aryeh Kaplan Lots of online references and resources. Most synagogues are open to visitors if you simply show up for a Friday evening or Saturday morning service. Enjoy!

Very glad to hear that you are enjoying and have confidence in your chosen path. I wish you blessings and success. _/\_

"how does one reach enlightenment?" Two steps to get you started: First - determine what it means for you to reach enlightenment Second - figure out who is asking the question

This is a very widely used method and is excellent for beginners. Once the mental activity is a bit more tranquil, this method becomes more accessible. This is simply another form of shamatha. I would say that it is wonderful that there are differing versions. This supports the practice of people with different aptitudes. Or a teacher…. There is nothing more valuable than having confidence in the method. Otherwise, commitment and dedication wane over time. Trial and error is not an efficient or expedient method for spiritual practice, IMO. Human life is too rare and far too short.

I guess clairvoyance is no less a delusion than fundamental ignorance.

I have to disagree with you, sir. It is exceedingly simple. Unfortunately, it is equally difficult. Simple does not necessarily mean easy! edit - spelling blunder

Disclaimer - I have very little craniosacral experience and lots of standing experience. My very close friend is a craniosacral therapist and very experienced meditator. If you stand for long enough, you become aware of the subtle things going on in the body, including the craniosacral rhythms and still points, presumably through a heightening of internal awareness and sensitivity. These rhythms are subtle and you need to know what to look/feel for as you are aware I'm sure, if you've done a workshop. I think standing is particularly useful in sensing the craniosacral rhythms because of the upright posture. This can then be brought to the therapeutic interaction. Sitting meditation may not be as effective because of the flexion of the hips and knees. As I said, my experience is quite limited and I base my comments mostly on my friend's experience.

One additional comment - sometimes it's the student. I've had some students that just don't seem to take in information that is offered. And I'm talking about multiple lessons with a variety of instructors over time. And they still look at you, clueless, and you know they'd be better off in a yoga or qigong class where they can simply follow the leader forever... Not saying that was the case with this particular situation but its a factor...

Fortunately, no dolphins have yet started kidnapping our children to teach them how to speak and perform...

Just because you've written books, produced DVDs, and put on seminars does not mean you are a good martial artist, let alone a good teacher.

If anyone has an interest in cranio-sacral therapy, standing meditation is a great way to improve your sensitivity.

If you are not practicing skillfully, you are practicing bad habits. Therefore, I strongly recommend direct, personal instruction even if it's only an occasional seminar or workshop. Once you find a practice that's a good fit, stick with it for a while. Daoist methods are generally intend to be lifelong practices. It takes months to become familiar with the methods and years to really benefit from them. Keep it as simple as possible. Complexity means time and most folks have limited time to devote to practice. It also means more room for error and frustration, particularly if you do not have regular, direct instruction. All that said, I think that basic zhan zhuang (standing meditation) is a wonderful place to start if you are interested in the Daoist methods. It provides lots of benefits of its own and also serves as a solid foundation for practices like taijiquan, qigong, baguazhang, and so on, if those arts interest you. It is simple, though not necessarily easy. It can be learned fairly quickly and over time it becomes very easy to self correct and adjust. It has a very 'grounding' effect and can be a good practice to help manage anxiety and other emotional/psychological issues. One very good resource is The Way of Energy by Master Lam Kam Chuen. Daoist meditation methods are also very valuable but, IMO, direct instruction is critical to success. That said, Bruce Frantzis' books on water methods meditation is one of the better 'self study' resources I've seen, as the water method is a very forgiving and intuitive approach the way he presents it. Good luck with your search.

You be the judge, if you care to.

One minor word of caution. The Buddha did many, many things in his life. To pick out one activity and convince yourself that this is what led to enlightenment may be a bit misleading. If that is what worked for the Buddha, it worked in the context of his entire life. Nice passage though. As luck would have it, just before reading your post, I was hanging out with a good friend who commented on the possibility that when the Buddha was practicing in a cave, he may have been practicing thogal...

I like to think of the word conceptualize rather than abstract, although both work. We abstract/conceptualize from our life experience. That life experience is an amalgamation of our 5 sensory inputs and thought process. The sage IS life, there is no separation, therefore no discrimination or judgement. The average person feels separate, establishes and lives life as a self, then discrimination and judgement come into the picture. My favorite line in the verse is - "So alive and dead are abstracted from nature." This is the line that speaks to me of the deepest things - the very nature of our perception and experience of life and death. Edit - typo correction

In my experience, we tend to find what we need when we are ready. I know that sounds trite but it seems to be the way of karma. I recently had the good fortune to be in the presence of a great master as he presented a perfect teaching. It was, quite literally, awe inspiring. It simultaneously demonstrated the master's transcendence and utter vulnerability. It touched my mind and heart very deeply and inspired enormous devotion and gratitude. I do understand the point you are making, deci. It is quite a good point and important. With or without teachers, karma seems to be what determines whether one experiences an enlightening or awakening event. Up until that point, teachers may or may not be of any value in moving us closer to that. Similarly, it is difficult to know what, if anything, we do ourselves that moves us closer to that... Once recognition occurs, a teacher can be enormously helpful in terms of finding ways to stabilize that recognition and provide a framework for integrating it into our lives, the context. Some folks may not need help there. I did,.... do.

A corollary - if you run into the right teacher while seeking the essence, that's cool too. _/\_

"No matter what comes from Wisdom Awareness (Yeshe Rigpa), nothing whatsoever can exist inherently. We all think that everything is concrete, reality, but we have merely created that by ourselves. So the creator is called ignorance." - last teaching of Drushaza from Heart Essence of the Khandro

Great post AND there are good great teachers.

As we begin to practice methods, we tend to pay careful to the area we are focusing. Over time we develop heightened sensitivity and notice all sorts of "new" things. It is very easy to ascribe new observations to the method we are training and convince ourselves that something special is happening (whether that be positive or negative). One may call it hunger, another may call it Qi, still others may call it demonic possession. My advice is to avoid the labeling and avoid creating or reinforcing the story of what you think is going on. Allow experience to unfold as it will. If the practice enhances your life, it is valuable. Enjoy your practice.