doc benway

Most certainly… I knew you knew… as it were… Wonderful advice… when the little demon that lives behind my eyes begins to sew doubts and aspirations and I'm present enough to notice, the simple reminder above - "take good care of all the relative aspects of practice" is all one can ever do while patiently awaiting "the ultimate [to] manifest naturally, in due course~" Very nicely put. Something like that is slowly becoming my daily mantra….

First off, this is a discussion about meditation, not martial arts. Martial arts are impossible to learn from books - meditation is even harder… Secondly, you are concerned about getting bad habits from teachers. What about getting bad habits without even having the benefit of a teacher? A book cannot see or hear your mistakes and offer salient corrections. You cannot share your experience with a book or ask it questions. All you can do is try to follow written instructions and, when speaking about Daoist meditation in particular, the instructions are impossibly difficult to interpret - intentionally. You are infinitely more likely to develop bad habits without a teacher. Of course we misunderstand our teachers sometimes, that's why we hopefully have more than one lesson. Of course there are bad teachers but there are enough good ones out there and when the student is ready, as they say, the teacher will be there. And it is generally possible nowadays to get good information about most teachers by doing some homework. The internet is a very powerful tool. It was much more difficult in times past. I know you prefer the books… these things don't tend to change. I just don't think that is the best advice we can give people looking to begin a study of meditation. I wish you well with your practice and study.

My sincere apologies to anyone I might offend by this but, in all honesty, I think the old bastard might tell us to stick our thoughts up our ass and laugh like a madman as he rode away on his ox…. Great post… I wonder if the ultimate fruition might be to reach a point where even the anticipation becomes unnecessary and duality simply self-liberates instantaneously without any us there to interfere. Sounds a bit like wu wei to me… non-interference… Curious how thought likes to play with projections about what it would be like without itself… Edited to add… maybe it's because it misses it's mommy?

You know when you see the positive changes in your life from what your teacher shows you.

Thanks for sharing that - I'm not familiar with it but will check it out. I rarely read posts on Dharmawheel, generally only as the result of a websearch or link, occasionally on Vajracackra which is not very active, and intermittently participate here - that's about it. My drive to participate fluctuates pretty dramatically.

I've seen quite a lot of negative talk towards folks here based on religious and political beliefs. Certainly not everyone, not even the majority. Just a vocal minority. There seems to be quite a bit of spiritual elitism around, some may even feel that I am guilty of that. It's not easy to get to know folks well through digital communication... I wasn't wondering. I generally take all available information into consideration and reach my own conclusions. Thank you for the additional information. Debate is an excellent tool and very useful in developing and refining the view. And at some point, one has a pretty good handle on the view and can let go of constant debate and work more on practice and integration... I see more (?less) than Buddhist values here quite frequently but that's OK, we're all working on improving ourselves, hopefully. The Bönpo offer a very interesting take on the history and transmission of Dzogchen, In their version, all of the Buddhas received transmission in turn, starting from beyond this plane of existence. They trace the tradition back directly to Kuntuzangpo (Samantabhadra). http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=9879 We can certainly agree on this. Although I do believe that there are those who are fortunate enough to come into contact with the Natural State without the benefit of a living guru. The key is what they then do with that, how to find context for it and express it in ones daily life. "Understanding" it, learning to stabilize, and then integrate it, are very challenging, even WITH the benefit of a guru. My opinion and observation is that religious and spiritual organizations tend to attract people who are wrestling with demons and looking for help and relief. Certainly not everyone, but enough to be significant. There is a reason why we see horrifying crimes like pedophilia among the clergy (in all faiths)... So yes, religious and spiritual gatherings are not necessarily filled with loving and mutually supportive people. However, with proper guidance and atmosphere I do think that such environments can be conducive to favorable growth. Like Apech, I've always hoped something like that would evolve here but it hasn't by and large. That said, I have met a few loving folks here that have become friends. It is mostly a good place for intellectual debate, not spiritual sharing and growth. And that in and of itself is a wonderful thing - there are not many opportunities to have such debate in the West, especially from the comfort of one's home. I'm not sure that an open and public internet forum is really an appropriate venue for spiritual sharing and growth. At least, I've not seen it. I think we really need personal, face to face interaction for that to manifest. On the other hand, I do think that we always have the choice to communicate in a loving, collaborative, and supportive way. And the more we do that, the more this forum will evolve... Just my $.02.

Me too but I'm not holding my breath… I guess the only thing we can do is be the change we hope to see. I try to do that as much as possible, and I know you do as well, sometimes I'm even successful. I think we lose a lot of the genuine practitioners and gentler souls here as a result of the atmosphere. I've seen quite a few come and go in the years I've been around. I used to be a fan of handmade knives back when I was heavily into martial arts and I frequented a couple of "knife" forums several years ago. The irony is that the (predominately Christian and right wing) members were far more supportive, cooperative, generous, and caring for each other there than the "Buddhists" and "Daoists" are here - and it was quite sincere. Those folks would get nothing but scorn here, simply for their perceived religious and political beliefs, and yet they were much more open and accepting than most of the "spiritual" folks are here. I'm sorry if I sound harsh or bitter, I'm really not feeling that way, just making a curious observation. I haven't figured it out yet… but I've come to accept it, more or less.

Farewell Songstaan… I hope life brings you peace

Quoted for posterity… I disagree. One good teacher is more valuable to the sincere student than every book ever written, in my opinion.

There's hope for you yet…

I genuinely enjoy sharing things that are important to me in a supportive and loving environment. This forum, especially the "Buddhist" subform, tends to be hypercritical and caustic… Much more suitable for intellectual debate than spiritual sharing.

Ditto

All I meant was that you had my permission to ask… I have no interest in discussing my practices publicly.

Yes

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I still disagree. Direct introduction is not transformation, it is not, in and of itself a tantric method. It is a pointing out of what is always already there. The other things you mention, except thogal, are not Dzogchen practice, they are preliminaries or ancillaries. In a Dzogchen context, guru yoga is more about empowerment and refuge than transformation. If one is able to abide in the nature of mind (Dzogchen), nothing else is necessary. Everything else simply helps us get to that point. Thogal, on the other hand, is a Dzogchen practice. Not sure how you consider that tantric. Thogal does not involve transformation, just recognition of the spontaneous display of the Natural State. I'm currently reading Bönpo Dzogchen Teachings by Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche and he goes to great lengths to distinguish between Dzogchen and Tantra (as well as Mahamudra and Sutrayana). I think I know how you feel about Bön so take or leave that reference as you wish.

If it is Tantra, it is not Dzogchen. Tantra is the path of transformation, there is no transformation in Dzogchen. Dzogchen is the path of self-liberation, transformation does not occur. Guilty as charged, my earlier comment was tongue in cheek.

Post removed as it seemed to offend the OP. The Bönpos and Nyingmapas acknowledge and respect each other and the Tibetan religious authority acknowledges and values both. If we truly want to embody Buddhist values, we have the opportunity to learn from their example.

Jack's fault… I had nothing to do with it.

Fortunately, at this moment in time I'm more obsessed with practice. But this has been a stimulating discussion for me.

Check out the history of Trungpa Rinpoche and his crazy wisdom. Spirituality to me is about looking inside (and outside) and figuring out who and what I am and honoring and expressing that to the fullest extent that I am able. And I also think spirituality is different for all of us and changes as we do... Do what you gotta do as long as you are respectful of the right of others to do the same.

I think JLA's choice of discernment is a good one, much better than knowledge, awareness, or presence IMO. I've recently acquired a few of his translations from the Zhangzhung nyengyud - quite good.

Yes, he's a great teacher _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ I would also be a bit careful here. While rigpa can be introduced and accessed through zhiné, it's very important that it be clarified, pointed out, by an experienced guide. I don't think that it is impossible for someone to experience and even recognize rigpa without pointing out instructions, but I do think one is very likely to be mistaken or lack confidence without them. And even a small mistake can really lead one down the wrong path and waste a lot of time in practice. Furthermore, developing enough confidence to be able to return to and abide in the Natural State at will and develop stability depends heavily on the certainty of that knowledge (there, I used the word! ). This is where the importance of guru yoga comes in. Having this degree of certainty requires the trust and devotion that I had never understood or experienced before practicing guru yoga. All the pieces really do fit and work together well, in my limited experience.

But you didn't address my question. Rigpa is completely independent of thought, is knowledge? And yes, I agree fully. The above definition is quite different than reducing Rigpa to simply "knowledge." Furthermore, I would qualify that particular usage of "knowledge" as that which is gained through direct experience or contact, in distinction to an intellectual construction based on information, which is another very common implication of knowledge. Dammit, I just can't stop! Edit to say - and after looking back at one of your earlier quotes you already addressed the usage of knowledge. Nice posts, BTW.

I guess the question I would pose in response is, can you have knowledge without thought? Because rigpa is not a consequence of nor can it be apprehended by thought. For me, knowledge is too tied to concepts like information and thought to be a satisfactory, stand-alone translation. I guess it's a matter of exactly what aspect of the word knowledge we are referring to, how it is being defined and used. That said, I do get Malcom's rationale for preferring knowledge over presence and awareness, I'm just not sure I agree that it's really better, all things considered. Many of the native Tibetan speakers are MUCH less hung up about which English words they are using and the Bönpo often use multiple English words in the same paragraph when referring to rigpa. I think we need to get over it…. especially me.