doc benway

Wonderful quote... Here's another favorite variation on the theme: "And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discovery a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." - John O'Donohue

Your welcome. There are aspects of existence that go beyond research and comprehension. Belief is a bandaid we place over our ignorance to give ourselves the illusion of understanding and security. Fine details explaining how meditation can be helpful in this matter - That's something that could fill quite a few books but I'll try to be very concise. Most of our lives are spent looking at the world through our thoughts. When we do that, we are subjecting the world to a very sophisticated and very biased and programmed algorithm that's rooted in our conditioning. It's a product of our ancestors, our society, our culture, our teachers, our government, and so on. That algorithm is a complex filter that applies labels, preferences, and judgments on everything that is taken in. The system is a self consistent story that is essentially the story of our world as we experience it. The story and the algorithm are completely contained within our heads. They have virtually nothing to do with reality. So when we look at the world outside (or inside) we are really looking at an image created by our programmed image of that world. And that image is a very poor approximation that cuts off any possibility of deeper understanding. One example - I see something small and brown fly past the window and make a particular noise and I say to myself - sparrow. Oh, that's a sparrow - I know all about that. Next.... But how much do really know about it? How much do your really know about that particular, individual living creature? Do you know anything about it's life, it's experience, it's physiology, it's consciousness? Do you know what distinguishes it from other "sparrows"? Is it possible that there is more there than we can find in an encyclopedic entry? Another example - I bump in to someone I work with. Oh, that's Dave, I don't like Dave - he bumped me out of that promotion last month.... What do I really know about Dave? Is he happy? Is he ill? Is he a concert musician or a rapist? If I gave him a chance, he could turn out to be my best friend. But I know Dave, I don't like him... nothing will ever change. Same with everyone we meet. We make a quick assessment and judgment, based on the algorithm, slap on a concise label and the we "know" that person. And that "knowledge" sticks with us forever, unless something dramatic happens to shake it loose (which is extremely rare - how often do we markedly change our impression of a person?). So our intellectualization and "understanding" of the world inside us and around us is a sham. It's a very sophisticated story that we continually tell ourselves over and over and it forms the basis for our entire life. It's useful from a practical point of view but it's extremely limiting and it is what separates us from reality and Nature. It is our fall from grace. We never interact with the world, just with our image of the world. We never interact with other people. Our image of our self interacts with our image of the other person... It is an ongoing dance of thoughts, preconceptions, assumptions, and expectations. And the narrator never lets up. It's always there narrating our story because without the narrator the story would fall apart and we would have no security. So meditation gives us the opportunity to see the narrator for what it is and to possibly open ourselves up to what is rather than sleeping through life wrapped in the dream of our story. It takes enormous patience and dedication and the only way a person comes to see this for themselves is if they get dissatisfied or disillusioned with the status quo. And they have to be deeply dissatisfied because it's usually a difficult and slow process of breaking down the story. This is why it tends to occur most often in people who have been through profound and serious trauma. And all of those words are just about worthless. The only way to have any idea of what meditation can teach is to sit down and do it, preferably with some expert guidance to make sure you're on the right track initially. And there are plenty of excellent resources out there for the Buddhist methods, not so much for the Daoist methods...

still turns to motion as I peer deeply into apparent matter

Very similar to my school. Do you practice Stable Body Pounding (An Shen Pao 安身炮)?

Thanks My only response to your approach to DDJ would be - don't believe everything you think! (nor do I) Lao Zi points to things that go beyond rational thought and ideas. That's where meditation can be helpful. Best regards.

Nice post. I am with you I am...

Haha! You're not that far... train tickets are reasonable... I had to cross the pond! Twice!!

Well lizards then at least? PS - ChiDragon - you are the first Daoist I've ever met who maintains that man is not a part of Nature. Very interesting perspective. Was that something you were taught or is it a conclusion you've reached from your own study?

I don't think your interpretation of Lao Zi makes any sense. Sorry, we'll just have to disagree on that. In my opinion, the reason that humans suffer and make mistakes is because they are disconnected with their true nature. Daoism is about restoring that connection. Of course, you're entitled to your interpretation. I also disagree with your analysis of harm. I have an open mind but your intellectual analysis of what is and isn't a part of Nature is inconsistent with my own direct, personal experience as well as my knowledge of science. So we'll just have to agree to disagree. MH - why hasn't anyone brought up the alien angle yet?

Awesome post zerostao. I love van Gogh's work. I did a bit of a van Gogh tour in southern France (Arles and St. Remy) then visited the van Gogh museum in Amsterdam. Highly recommended to anyone interseted and able to go... The asylum in St. Remy is fascinating. There are reproductions of his paintings in multiple areas where he actually painted so you can compare the perspective on the canvas with his view...

I'm not in London but are you free to share your Xingyiquan curriculum with us? I practice as well and it's always interesting to compare...

Agreed, and in every living thing. Not that we can necessarily recognize it as such as we are limited to human experience. And I acknowledge that for some it will be a stretch to make that leap and that's fine. Just my perspective gleaned through my life experience. Perhaps - as we've discussed in other threads, I tend to look at "me" as being that characteristic of my thought process that assumes the mantle of "me" and is convinced that it is the doer and the thinker. In my own practice and experience, I haven't been able to find that me, aside from the recurring thought that tells me it is so.... It certainly seems that way. But again, where's the me? I feel the me may be nothing more than an observer and a narrator. I can't prove that nor do I think there's any need to but my practice and experience has brought me to this conclusion. And I'm open to the possibility that I'm completely wrong. Exactly, we are on the same page here. The universe, the mind, God, Buddha-nature, Eric Cartman,... whatever labels you want to use, manifests through me and I'm observing and narrating that experience to my self. And I'm not equating the paths here (as some like to accuse me), the paths are all unique. But whatever it is that the credible paths are guiding us towards is what I'm refering to. So Daoism is about acknowledging and experiencing that process of Dao acting through us without the interference of the "me" that can't be found but does so much damage... A delightful mystery! Maybe I should have subtituted Wu Wei for Daoism above... but hopefully I'm communicating my thoughts clearly.

I have a different perspective. I think that nature does have very deep, in fact infinite compassion and it is expressed in our very life and breath. Life is the vehicle through which that compassion becomes manifest, particularly human life. Yes, there is pain and yes, there is death and suffering but that does not negate the presence of compassion. At least that's what I'm feeling lately... stick around, it could change!

Sorry, I'm waiting for an answer to my question first... If humans are not a direct manifestation of Nature, what are we? Before it is worthwhile to consider how are actions relate to Nature, we need to establish what we are relative to Nature. Edited for grammar

I couldn't disagree with you more. It's not that I miss the point. I simply think that you are misguided in your interpretation. Lao Zi absolutely understood that humans are a part of nature. Do you believe that everything alive is a part of nature except humans? Then what are humans? Are we a technological creation? All life is part of nature. This is why the place to look for answers is inside yourself, not in a book. This is why the Daoists practice meditation and qigong. Lao Zi recognized that humans had lost touch with their true nature through conditioning, through social engineering, and political manipulation. The entire message of Daoism can be summed up in helping people to reconnect with and embrace their original nature. That's what Wu Wei is all about. That's what Zi Ran is all about. Our dependence on technology (like clothing) seems to be an adaptation. It is a natural response to our progressive technological advancement. Or perhaps not, that's just the most plausible explanation I can come up with offhand. Maybe there is another explanation altogether. And maybe you're right and we are not a part of nature. If that's the case, what are we? The madman is an aberration, that's why we call him a madman. Nevertheless, if that happens someday, yes - it is in fact an act of nature. If an asteroid hits the earth and wipes out humanity, is that not nature? This is the whole meaning of Zhuang Zi's Empty Boat parable. An empty boat bumps into you, no problem - it's nature. Just because a person is steering the boat, it is no different than the empty boat... the wise man does not get angry. And the sage is so skillful, he disappears altogether, he is as nature - empty of intent, wu wei. But I don't think I will convince you of anything. That's fine. We can agree to disagree on this.

I don't know Jim but I'm sorry to hear about his death and feel deeply for his family and friends. Rest in peace Jim.

So then your definition doesn't hold up anymore, you have to do away with the non-interference part... I look at it differently. If I see a baby in the river, it is in my nature to save it. I AM Nature. I am not other than Nature. So when I save the baby, Nature is saving the baby using me as a vehicle. I am not interfering at all. That's what I was leading up to... you beat me to the punch line by ~ 3 seconds... So I'd like to add, ChiDragon, that the problem I have with your definition of Wu Wei is the invocation of "harm." Once you bring that into it, you are making value judgements and Nature doesn't do that. There is plenty of harm in nature. It's all a matter of perspective. When the lion eats a gazelle, to the lion there is no harm done but it's different for a gazelle. If a baby falls in the river and you and I aren't there to save it you can bet the mom has been deeply harmed. When I make a shelter and kill a few plants - I'm harming nature. When a hurricane blows through New Orleans - enormous harm... The definition I can get behind is that of non-interference. But for that definition to work you've got to recognize yourself as just another extension of Nature. The tricky part is to know when you are interfering and when you are not. That's what the sage has figured out and the rest of us are working on.

I'll also add based on recent activity... No good advice goes unignored...

I do like your answer to the baby question and how it arose from your definition of Wu Wei. Thanks for the reply. Although I will add that if a baby jumps into the river and you save her, you have interfered with nature, have you not?

I can be a bit concrete in my thinking at times but yes, I assumed you were joking - what with the Hehehe and all. I sort of was also...

Should one save a drowning child who falls into a river?

I'd say it belongs in the tech forums for posterity. Nice to see the mod team respond to the wishes of the community. I think we have an exceptional group in charge right now. Thanks for your time and efforts all...

heart goes oom pah pah! breath whooshes in, billows out, From whence does it flow?

before I go bald... ticks, lice, and other critters - welcome to my scalp!

།ཆོས་རྣམས་མ་ལུས་གཉིས་མེད་པའི། །རང་རིག་བྱང་ཆུབ་སེམས་ཉིད་དོ། One's knowledge of the non-duality of all phenomena is bodhicitta -Vajrasattvamāyājālaguhyasarvādarśa-nāma-tantra