doc benway

Karma is a very simple concept and worthy of some attention. Apech, CT, and bubbles seem to have a good handle on it. There is no need to make the leap on faith regarding reincarnation. One can benefit from a study and understanding of the idea of karma without preconceptions, projections, or expectations. If an understanding of karma is useful to you, wonderful! If not, that's fine too. And you can certainly also just ignore it altogether but that doesn't mean it is not at work all around you at every moment.

Daoist writings are full of stories of Immortals. I am also of the mind that these are archetypes, myths, fables, and so forth. Many believe them literally but I see no need. They are just as instructive without resorting to belief. Zhuangzi often deals with the clash between human qualities and the neutrality of nature - the empty boat comes to mind. Most human problems are rooted in psychology, not biology or physiology. Hence Zhuangzi is often inviting us to recognize that the negative (and positive) emotions, hence the source of our troubles in inside of our heads, not in the natural world. I also agree with dawei that the "Immortal" is something we can aspire to in this way. But I also get the sense that Zhuangzi is of the mind that it is not something we will ever fully achieve. Compassion is a whole other issue. I have found, in general, that it is lacking to a large degree in both Zhuangzi and other Daoist classics. I'm hoping that you all with show me otherwise.

So does the neural net exist? If so, is it also simply energy and information?

The boneless ones are even easier -

Tough section. A few thoughts - Chien Wu is listening to Chieh Yu's talk and doesn't understand what is being said. He refuses to believe it because it doesn't make rational sense. Could Zhuangzi be giving us a lesson in how to listen? Maybe even how to listen to him? When we hear something new, if it doesn't fit into our sense of things, we tend to reject rather than open ourselves and investigate and make an effort to learn something new. And in particular with Zhuangzi, he is telling us new things that may not fit our normal expectations so we need to work to understand. When we listen, are we simply listening from the perspective of agreeing and using the speaker to validate and reify our position? Or are we listening to disagree and reject, and again reinforce our own story? Or is there another way of listening, with openness, without expectation or position? This takes work and is difficult. So who is the pale, shy guy with the soft voice who rides dragons and needs no sustenance other than air and water? He wanders beyond the four seasons and can concentrate his spirit to perform miracles. He's a Daoist Immortal it seems. Is this an archetype? A personification of nature itself? Then Lien Shu castigates Chien Wu, pointing out his ignorance. He refers to the "Immortal" as having the ability to solve human quarrels and problems but then asks, why should he bother? This seems to me a lesson in nature's lack of concern for human problems as manitou and rene were discussing in another thread. There is a sufi (I think) saying that goes something like, 'the nature of the rain is the same, yet it grows thorns in the marsh and flowers in the garden.' Similarly, the flood will drown an innocent child and spare a thief...

I'll have to disagree on that point. I think you made it quite clear that you were taking a nihilist point of view, eg nothing exists, period. That is a misinterpretation of the diamond sutra. I think that non-existent is the wrong word. Video game characters certainly exist. Try to take a 3DO away from a teenager in the middle of a game. Video game characters occupy our kids' thoughts more than school work, sell more high fructose corn syrup than can possibly be imagined, and influence the lives of millions of people. And what is our daily experience other than a waking dream? Your mind and it's particular set of sensory organs are what evoke your experience of reality from what would otherwise be an unrecognizable amalgam of energetic vibrations. It's not much different from dreaming. And Buddhism takes it ones step further and subjects your waking, real experience to the same scrutiny and concludes that it is an energetic happening that does not exist separate from the mind of the dreamer. That is not the same as saying that it doesn't exist. And so is your neural net and so are you. So are you absolutely sure that all of that is contained within our neural nets? It certainly seems that way but even that must be carefully scrutinized. And one can also view all of reality in exactly the same manner. Perhaps we agree on that point.

You can if it is an incomplete fragment or a misinterpretation.

A dream is empty but it is not non-existent. You probably had some last night and will again tonight. Dreams are excellent analogies to waking experience and are very often used as aids to understanding the Buddhist view of sunyata as they point to the role of mind in our waking experience. I think you are confusing empty with non-existent. That is a common error in the interpretation of Buddhist scripture because sunyata points to a non-conceptual state that is not directly accessible to the conceptual/rational mind. Furthermore, sunyata can be interpreted in a number of different ways depending on the context (spaciousness, openness, thusness, void, expansiveness, fullness, and so on). Some people can come to an understanding of sunyata through scripture. Most seem to have better luck through meditation. Some simply get it spontaneously. You are certainly entitled to your interpretation but it's an error to equate sunyata with non-existence and it is an error to interpret the Buddhist view as "nothing exists." That seems to be what is being challenged here.

Not while you're around... But then when the cat's away The mouse tends to play!

I'll bite Also from the Diamond Sutra - ""How do I know this? Because this person must have discarded all arbitrary notions of the existence of a personal self, of other people, or of a universal self. Otherwise their minds would still grasp after such relative conceptions. Furthermore, these people must have already discarded all arbitrary notions of the non-existence of a personal self, other people, or a universal self. Otherwise, their minds would still be grasping at such notions. Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts." "When the Buddha explains these things using such concepts and ideas, people should remember the unreality of all such concepts and ideas. They should recall that in teaching spiritual truths the Buddha always uses these concepts and ideas in the way that a raft is used to cross a river. Once the river has been crossed over, the raft is of no more use, and should be discarded. These arbitrary concepts and ideas about spiritual things need to be explained to us as we seek to attain Enlightenment. However, ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded. Think Subhuti, isn't it even more obvious that we should also give up our conceptions of non-existent things?" "Suppose, Subhuti, a man had an enormous body. Would the sense of personal existence he had also be enormous?" "Yes, indeed, Buddha," Subhuti answered. "His sense of personal existence would be enormous. But the Buddha has taught that personal existence is just a name, for it is in fact neither existence nor non-existence. So it only has the name 'personal existence'." "Subhuti, how can one explain this Sutra to others without holding in mind any arbitrary conception of forms or phenomena or spiritual truths? It can only be done, Subhuti, by keeping the mind in perfect tranquility and free from any attachment to appearances."

Standing meditation can be a very valuable addition to your practice. For me there tends to be more of a somatic component as more of the awareness and neural resources need to attend to maintaining posture. It is also a wonderful medicine for a variety of illnesses and injuries and a great rehabilitation method. My advice would be to start with simple, basic, natural standing posture. Start for a few minutes a day and slowly build up until you are able to stand for an hour. There's little advantage to focusing on more complicated or advanced postures early on. The body will begin to naturally adopt more advanced postures if you allow it to lead you. Enjoy!

admire the curves as the USPS tires bring you a surprise!

in the beginning there was stig's first haiku, now 5723

I've realized that I am not better than anyone else. That is one reason I'm comfortable that "my way" is working for me. Some other effects - I've come to terms with many issues I used to struggle with. I'm better able to deal with adversity and challenges. I'm able to self "medicate" without the need for drugs or therapy. I'm no longer quick to anger and no longer blame the outside world and other people for my problems. I have a closer and more loving relationship with most of the people in my life. Work is more gratifying and less infuriating and frustrating than it used to be. I am comfortable being with myself without needing to keep busy or be distracted. I'm much better at (and care more about) recognizing when I'm mistreating others through words or actions. So "my way" seems to have made some very positive changes in my life. That's how I know it's the right one for me.

I was going to comment on how much you agreed with my earlier post and how something must be changing for one of us... Then I decided to let it rest.

She spat on the ground after reading my shit post... Hers is much better!

So true, and yet they are different facets of the same diamond, no? That is brilliant, how can it not be your TTB's nick?

I do something similar with respect to others - if I don't expect anything from anyone, I'll never be disappointed...

Really glad you like them, guess where I got it from...

Nothing certainly does exist. Every time I ask my kids what they're doing, they say "Nothing" And it's obvious that they're pretty busy....

Nevermind...

yes, they are mutually arising (Daoist) and dependently originating (Buddhist). Only if you are a matter-ialist.

I have to disagree here. The universe would be just fine without human life. If human never existed, the universe would not know the difference (nor would we). If we go extinct, it will be Ziran and things would carry on just fine.... Regarding Buddhism - To say that nothing exists, whether us or a chair, is a misinterpretation of the Buddhist view of emptiness, in my opinion. The more accurate way to express sunyata is that nothing has independent, inherent existence, in and of itself, separate from everything else; and yet things cannot be said to be non-existent either. All things are fundamentally inter-related and can be said to 'exist' (or arise/originate) dependently on all other things (pratitiyasamutpada). This is an important distinction because Buddhism is not nihilism. Just my opinion, and as others have pointed out, I'm not much of a Buddhist scholar. For me the "why" question of existence, and in general, is a peculiarity of the human being and is a consequence of the verbal nature of our thought process. Having an intellectual and verbal explanation for things creates an illusion of security. It is also useful in a practical sense, but not so useful in metaphysical and spiritual matters. The universe has no need of explanation, nor is it likely that we could conceive of a satisfactory explanation conceptually, even if one did exist. The best reason for our existence, IMO, is that we are 'of ourselves so' - Ziran.

More than you think! Fair enough It certainly does. Nice bantering with you.

One of my favorite gurus described the three hardest things to do as: including the excluded admitting when we are wrong returning love for hate