doc benway

Nearly all human animals have intelligence. The issue is that most are sound asleep. And yet, there is no intelligence? What does that say about yours? Nature is clearly highly intelligent. We are an expression of that as are all other living things at individual, cellular, and species levels. It's just that the intelligence has a different appearance depending on the level of organization. If you don't like the word intelligence, that's fine. Certainly there is organization, integration, and so forth, with a very predictable, elegant, and specific manifestation. And no need to worry, none of this implies or presupposes a separate creator, designer, supreme being, or what have you. That is simply an anthropomorphic projection of the limits of human imagination and insight. It is all highly intelligent and completely Ziran. And no need to go there if your tidy, materialistic rationale feels threatened... I'd be happy to elaborate if there's anything specific you're referring to. Looking forward to watching the Sam Harris videos. He's a bright guy and I've read one of his books and a few of his talks. Thanks for posting those, Rara.

I'm fortunate enough to have a Shifu who loves good wulong tea. He orders some of the best of each year's early Spring crop from Taiwan so I buy some every Spring. It's my favorite though I also like a nice cup of Camomile or Masala chai as well. I used to do the gongfu thing exclusively but I've relaxed on that and only do that for company.

I'm not convinced that we've established the first... And if we have, I'm not sure I've yet determined where that lies and how it occurs. An interesting offshoot of this conversation occurred to me this morning. Earlier you mentioned triggers and trees. I think it's interesting to look at what that means. Why do all deciduous trees in a geographic region shed their leaves at the same time ever year? To me that implies an intelligence, an awareness, something like that at a level that supersedes that of the individual tree. It points to both a higher level of awareness and organization but also to the inseparability of the tree from it's environment. Similarly one can think about the intelligence of a river and where it lies (river bed, organisms living within it, local geothermal conditions, mountain, etc...). One can extend this thought process to planet, solar system, galaxy, etc... And to our species which holds itself out and above all others due to the verbal nature of thought... This is the foundation for apprehending one-ness at a material level. At the level of consciousness and awareness it becomes a bit of a different but related discussion. Anyway, something that jumped into my head this am and I thought I'd share.

A trigger seems like a far cry from free will or choice, it seems much more mechanized. I've seen pet fish eat themselves to death. Yeah, it does seem that you're trying pretty hard to rationalize a belief. I'm just sharing a perspective, not really claiming it to be "true", but it certainly seems to fit my experience better than the widely accepted story we generally abide by.

Cool So what biological choice exists? Leaf becomes dysfunctional => leaf drops, that is what happens for the deciduous tree, is it not? Where is the biological choice? It is cyclical and guaranteed, biologically predetermined, not a biological choice for deciduous trees. Even this would be an example of biological determinism: useless leaf => gone useful leaf => stays Edit here for clarity: " If they (the leaves) remain useful to the tree the tree keeps them." But that is not what we see. Certain species of trees always shed their leaves with the season. Others not. OK, make the choice to not pee for a week then let me know how much freedom you felt... Sensing, observing - no difference in my mind. It's just that different biological sub-systems are endowed with different sets of sensory apparatus. And we are blessed (cursed) with language, which leads to the delusion of choice. Consciousness does not necessarily imply control or choice. It certainly does create the opportunity for there to be a (deluded) assumption of control and choice. Yup, still with you. Nice discussion, thanks.

PS - I have seen folks cause themselves pretty serious physical harm with the martial qigong methods. I've seen a guy give himself bilateral inguinal hernias from the packing exercises. That literally is a tearing of the abdominal fascia that allows the intestines to herniate through the abdominal wall. It's possible that this is where the concept of "tearing" the lower dan tian comes from. That's just speculation on my part. I'll defer to the Mo Pai experts about that.

I disagree - Qi is not muscle, Qi is not physical stuff, Qi is not even energy as the word is usually understood in English. Qi isn't something that can be restrained or restricted, it can't be contained. You are comparing apples to oranges... Qi is much closer to you than you think, it is inextricably related to awareness and sensitivity. Daoist cultivation (and Buddhist, for that matter) is ultimately more about letting go than adding on. Every atom in your body already has the energy of the sun within it. It is always already there. It is more about connecting with and learning to manifest what is always, and has always been, already there. Energy is not a good English translation of the characters for Qi (氣, 炁) in my opinion, that is one reason why Qi is so misunderstood. It conjures up too many expectations and preconceptions for the English speaker. I really like the Tibetan word lung (sounds like loong), which means wind. It's also very instructive to keep in mind that the commonly used character, 氣, is also the character for breath or air. The other, more archaic character, 炁, is only found in old Daoist charms and writings but refers to the subtle "energy" or life force that is distinct from air or breath, so the concepts are not equivalent but they are closely related. Anyway, all this is just my opinion and I acknowledge that most folks will disagree. I just like to hear myself lecture sometimes... Sorry for that. Be careful with the Mo Pai methods if you don't have an experienced teacher. Good luck with your practice.

So the tree has a choice? The tree has free will and may hold on to the leaf until next season? Just as the tree has simply observes the falling leaf, ... I observe the nature of "things" acting through me as my fingers fall on these keys. By Tzulan, are you referring to 自然 - Ziran, of itself so? I do agree with that description of the concept at hand. Maybe I'm misreading your post.

If you know what you're doing, why did you ask the original question? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just concerned for your health. Do you have a qualified instructor for Mo Pai training? PS - You have more than a little tiny bit of energy, even now - when you learn how to be fully aware, you have access to limitless energy

Even me confused Can't seem to read word order Better must focus

Good luck with your training.

For: We all have needs Against: Needs always have us Who is to say which?

Not at all - I hold no belief in destiny or (shudders) ID... Even if my feeling is accurate, that does not necessarily imply destiny or some other agent making choices or determining action. Does a leaf will itself to fall? If not, does that imply destiny or a designer?

The lower dan tian is not a structure made of tissue, hence it can't tear in the sense that one tears paper or a spleen. Qi awareness, IME, is about becoming progressively more sensitive and aware of physical manifestation at an energetic level rather than storing some imaginary 'stuff' in an imaginary organ. Just my $.02, FWIW.

I really like and resonate with the OP. Very Daoist perspective it is... And I'd like to add that the very concept of "why?" seems to me to be simply a peculiar characteristic of the nature of conditioned human thought and doesn't otherwise exist in reality.

shipped them off to Guam where the peaceful Chamorro endured cruelty

This is a great avenue of investigation and I'll offer my observations, for what they're worth. When I look for the "I" that has the will and intent to make the choices, I can't find anything or anyone there. And I've been looking for a very long time. Consequently, I've come to feel that the thought that asserts itself as the choice maker is simply an observer, offering non-stop, blow by blow commentary,whether I ask for it or not, taking credit for what is going on. There is some scientific investigation out there on this point of free will that tends to support the absence of choice but I'm not convinced that the methodology is yet sophisticated enough to be beyond reproach.

Hence the reason I included pee... At least I'm in auspicious company.

And familiarity cloaks the miraculous. Nothing more miraculous to me than waking up every morning and having the ability to see, smell, feel, pee, walk, enjoy food, enjoy the relationship of a loved one .... (not necessarily in that order)

That's because you're Scandinavian! Always nice to hear from you h.

a sight to behold! reflecting blue light above witch head nebula

Imagine that a close friend came to you with this same story. How would you react? Hopefully you would listen patiently and offer warmth, support, and encouragement. Now offer this generosity and kindness to yourself. Don't be angry but do learn from the experience. Your mind and body are telling you what they think about alcohol, weed, unhealthy food, and so forth. Don't expect to change all of your behaviors over night. I promise there will be ups and downs. Punishing yourself is not as productive as learning from the experiences and starting again with a fresh outlook and enthusiasm. Good luck!

Worthy of repeating.... Thank you

colorful sun shields... the investigating eye from the subtle view.

Dogmatic views on spiritual practices are rarely accurate or helpful, be they Christian, Buddhist, Daoist, or other... Consequently, I'd like to offer an opposing position. There are many effective ways to cultivate, many ways to meditate, many ways to heal, fight, and grow. I disagree with much of what Starjumper has posted in this thread. His methods and school clearly have their bias and perspective. Out of respect, I will assume that it is a traditional, credible, and effective approach. That does not mean that it is the only approach or that alternative approaches are incorrect or less effective. The microcosmic orbit has very successful and safe applications in a variety of Daoist schools. In my system it is both a foundation practice and an advanced practice. The major problem, as I see it, is that the majority of Daoist methods require supervision by an experienced guide and such teachers are few and far between. The MCO has been popularized in the West in a number of books and videos but I've never seen a published resource that is anything like what my teacher taught me regarding this practice. Furthermore, the published resources do not provide feedback, guidance, correction, and so forth. This is a very subtle practice that requires accuracy more than anything else, and that is tough to achieve without personal instruction. Practices, such as the MCO, are generally only harmful or ineffective when misused without the benefit of skillful guidance. I mean no disrespect and have no interest in debating the point, just wanted to offer an alternative perspective. Peace.