doc benway

I think what you are talking about is related to distraction. Taijiquan is great for pointing this up and working on it. Also, Daoist meditation is very good for this. The 'mind of intent' or Yi needs to be engaged to maintain continuity, particularly when doing something very slowly or something that requires constant adjustment (like walking the circle). As they say, where the Yi goes, the Qi follows. Slowing down without the actions being any slower sounds to me like more mindfulness, more engaging, more focus of the Yi in whatever is being done, be it physical or mental. When the awareness and attention are engaged, it feels like we are moving slower yet that's not necessarily the case. Good observation and working diligently with this is bound to enhance your practice. As Anthony Demello likes to say... "Awareness, awareness, awareness"

Yes, and perception is everything! I love the Toltec approach to illusion. Well played sir.

When I first started learning Daoist methods, my teacher insisted that I not share experiences and insights with his other students. We were advised to do the work for ourselves and come to him with questions and observations. The mind is so tricky and so quick and effective, that any little bits of info can become sources of expectation and projection. After a few years and reaching certain insights, my teacher suggested that I 'compare notes' with other 'advanced' students. At this point, a framework had been established which was relatively free of bias and expectation and so there was less opportunity for distraction to creep in. While sharing and discussion can be useful and illuminating, it can also be distracting and misleading. Caveat emptor!

No, you misunderstand me - the way you throw a beautiful and rare miracle around as if it were a superpower and as if Dudjom Lingpa were a super hero, that reminded me of anime. I'm pointing out your infatuation with and grasping at superpowers. I'd just be a fly on the wall... it's my fantasy, after all!

I don't think you'd be invited. Hopefully that will change some day.

I appreciate that. The way you use it to claim some sort of spiritual superiority both cheapens and desecrates what is truly holy to some.

tucked beneath a bush; awaits opportunity to enter the gates

I see Dudjom Rinpoche sitting around a table with Laozi, Ramana Maharshi, Anthony Demello, Isaac the Blind, and Uwais al Qarani. In their conversations I see them discussing the common truth underlying their varied words and methods. I see them finding warm camaraderie and mutual support and love. I don't see Dudjom Rinpoche telling them they have no hope of liberation. Sounds a bit like anime to me... God only has Count Chocula power but Dudjom Rinpoche's got full-on Rainbow Body! Put that way, I'll go Buddhism all day long!!

Non-locality is a difficult concept to grasp, whether from a mathematical or qualitative perspective. I didn't really intend to take the association too literally or dogmatically. On the other hand, there is fairly solid evidence that particles are connected in some way over great distances and possibly times. Furthermore, through meditative practices we can get a glimpse of characteristics of consciousness that are non-local. As I was trying to understand why ZZ would choose to refer to his bird and fish in such outrageously extreme terms, and combined that with water and air (which are ubiquitous - in and outside of our bodies and throughout our environment), this seemed to possibly allude to non-locality. I could be totally misreading but thought I'd share. I think that in speaking of the large and small side by side, he is also pointing to the superimposition of the microcosm and macrocosm. This concept is fundamental in Daoist cultivation (and is pervasive in spirituality). Another hint at non-locality? Or more one of the interconnectedness of all actions (karma). Microcosm/macrocosm Forgive me for noticing and pointing to the Daoist/Buddhist parallels but this is very similar to Buddhist teachings (which I think are historically inextricable from Daoism). When our thoughts and actions are 'correct' we do not accumulate karma. That is equivalent (in my mind) to saying that the traveller leaves no footprints and can move at will without being noticed. Here is a brief excerpt from Vivid Awareness by Khenchen Thrangu about the Dzogchen method: "While you remain in undistracted naturalness it is utterly impossible to accumulate karma and you have cut the stream of the further accumulation of karma." And this is not only on the meditation cushion but to be brought into every moment of one's life.

TI - What you are describing is very similar in principle to certain Daoist methods. My teacher refers to the focused awareness as the 'mind of intent' Very effective methods for cultivating samatha, among other things. Very interesting to read. Thanks

I recently posted a quotation in another thread by Nagarjuna that reinforces your opinion: The victorious ones say that emptiness Undermines all dogmatic views, Those who take a dogmatic view of emptiness Are said to be incurable.

Thanks Aaron - I've missed you too! Hoping that you are well... Best regards

One way I find very helpful in approaching the meaning behind the words is to read multiple translations and compare. This way, we have some idea of the spectrum of different possible meanings. This was very helpful for me in the (limited) study of Nei Yeh and Dao De Jing I've done. It's tougher in Zhuangzi because he's so darn wordy!

The problem with translation from Chinese Hanzi to English is that the very act of translation often requires interpretation. Hanzi often communicate at multiple levels to the native Chinese reader so that it could take phrases or sentences to give someone the possible meanings of a single character. Context becomes extremely important, much more so than in English and context generally implies interpretation. My Chinese reading is very rudimentary but I've done translations for my Shifu and found it extremely difficult and often impossible to do translations verbatim.

That's not what I mean by non-locality. Non-locality is something that is discussed in modern physics and often applied with respect to the nature of consciousness or awareness. It first came to the attention of physicists and mathematicians with the advent of quantum mechanics and one of the classical experiments that demonstrates the effect is called Bell's Theorem.

This is awesome!

Shortly after I began a serious practice of meditation (a Daoist system), I stopped drinking alcohol. I used to drink quite a bit, never to the point of pathology, but certainly to the point of frequent intoxication and significant weight gain. Skillful meditation made me so much more sensitive to many things that I made some significant changes. I stopped drinking for a long time. Now I drink on occasion but tend to quickly feel sluggish, dull, heavy, and I don't like the feeling much. I used to enjoy fly fishing, I stopped - I can no longer derive any pleasure from torturing living things. I stopped eating meat for a long time. Now I eat meat but it's much less frequent and I'm more sensitive to the source. Funny you mention the dairy sensitivity because I've also become sensitive to milk and cheese.

crying in our beer gives it a salty flavor try a squeeze of lime

It is tough to pin shunyata down as a concept and even tougher to express in words. And even tougher to express in words that multiple folks will agree on and interpret in a similar fashion. I like to think about it in terms of multiple words that point to different characteristics - words like empty, spacious, open, thusness, and on and on. It is much better to investigate this with practice than with words. And a quotation I like from the great grand-daddy of the 'concept' - The victorious ones say that emptiness Undermines all dogmatic views, Those who take a dogmatic view of emptiness Are said to be incurable. -- Nagarjuna Very nice post. The Buddhists don't claim that we don't exist. What shunyata points to is that reality is neither permanent nor non-existent. It's much more subtle and elusive than simply trying to capture the idea in a word like void or empty. "It is more unity, balance of opposites." Another useful concept that points to truth but doesn't quite capture it completely any more than does shunyata. "Thoughts are real and have power." No question about it - and yet grab a hold of one and make it last... they are impermanent, and everything they create is ultimately impermanent as well. "I prefer to live life as a dance, in harmony, at one with nature." Love this - the Daoist may say they strive to be one with nature and the Buddhist may say they strive to find and be one with their original nature. Dao is beyond words, our original nature is beyond words. Dancing is nice.

Excellent cautionary reminder Rene, thanks for pointing that out. The point I made about Christianity comes from one of my favorite teachers, Anthony Demello. He was a Jesuit - I believe it is part of their practices but I'm no expert. I also celebrate the differences in the paths and diversities. And celebrate the underlying wholeness as well.

Yes and no - I agree with you, malikshreds, that we develop a lot of tension and bad habits and there is no question that we can always refine our posture, breathing, and so forth. At the same time, I think that we can sometimes over-think things that are very simple and very natural. While it is valuable to bring one's attention to the breath, it is also important to let the body do what it has always known how to do. There is certainly value in attending to the breathing and being aware of a healthy pattern, then there are other things to attend to while the breath is allowed to breath itself.

Do you think that we are born not knowing how to breathe "correctly"? Is breathing something that needs to be learned?

I doubt that very many people are capable of isolating the breathing to the chest only - it is virtually impossible, in fact. The natural method of breathing incorporates 3 basic sets of muscles and they start from the bottom and work upwards in order of importance. The breath initiates with contraction of the diaphragm and relaxation of the abdominal muscles. This is the primary mechanism and is aided by engagement of accessory muscles like the iliopsoas, etc... The secondary mechanism is the intercostal muscles supported by accessory muscles such as serratus anterior and posterior. The tertiary mechanism includes several muscles around the neck and shoulders such as the scalene muscles. The average person (and, in fact, just about everyone) is practicing abdominal breathing all of the time, even if they are not aware of it. I think that perhaps you are asking whether or not people are focusing their attention on their breathing and to what extent that is the primary focus of their practice. It does appear to be the case in your practice - but that is just an assumption on my part.

How would one breath without using the abdomen?

I don't enjoy it and I certainly hope you don't leave - you are a valuable contributor here in my opinion. Quite a few folks here express themselves in ways that I find objectionable and it has caused me to take some long leaves of absence. Folks like you keep me coming back, however, so I'm trying to find ways to deal with what rubs me the wrong way and continue to interact with the community in a positive way.