doc benway

Yes and no - I agree with you, malikshreds, that we develop a lot of tension and bad habits and there is no question that we can always refine our posture, breathing, and so forth. At the same time, I think that we can sometimes over-think things that are very simple and very natural. While it is valuable to bring one's attention to the breath, it is also important to let the body do what it has always known how to do. There is certainly value in attending to the breathing and being aware of a healthy pattern, then there are other things to attend to while the breath is allowed to breath itself.

Do you think that we are born not knowing how to breathe "correctly"? Is breathing something that needs to be learned?

I doubt that very many people are capable of isolating the breathing to the chest only - it is virtually impossible, in fact. The natural method of breathing incorporates 3 basic sets of muscles and they start from the bottom and work upwards in order of importance. The breath initiates with contraction of the diaphragm and relaxation of the abdominal muscles. This is the primary mechanism and is aided by engagement of accessory muscles like the iliopsoas, etc... The secondary mechanism is the intercostal muscles supported by accessory muscles such as serratus anterior and posterior. The tertiary mechanism includes several muscles around the neck and shoulders such as the scalene muscles. The average person (and, in fact, just about everyone) is practicing abdominal breathing all of the time, even if they are not aware of it. I think that perhaps you are asking whether or not people are focusing their attention on their breathing and to what extent that is the primary focus of their practice. It does appear to be the case in your practice - but that is just an assumption on my part.

How would one breath without using the abdomen?

I don't enjoy it and I certainly hope you don't leave - you are a valuable contributor here in my opinion. Quite a few folks here express themselves in ways that I find objectionable and it has caused me to take some long leaves of absence. Folks like you keep me coming back, however, so I'm trying to find ways to deal with what rubs me the wrong way and continue to interact with the community in a positive way.

How could one possibly practice without abdominal breathing?

I didn't say that all paths are one, did I? And yet, in truth they are. They are all simply manifestations of [insert conceptual term here]. I also think that the underlying path of Christianity, the one that the mystics walk, is not to worship a supreme being, but rather to find the supreme [state of] being within... (and without)

Fantasy for you she said, donning the corset awareness drifts off....

...

What do you mean by asking if abdominal breathing helps to accomplish an intended result?

in high stakes life game reality takes back seat to whim and fancy

So it appears that your belief is that the path and the result of that path creates reality. While I agree that it certainly does, that reality is a relative reality, not the underlying truth. It is the creation of a conceptual path. Our true nature is the same, regardless of the conceptual framework that obscures it. The Daoist, Christian, Dzogchenpa, and new age hippie are of one taste. All are a dance (thanks Protector) of emptiness and clarity, just as thoughts and the matrix from/within which they arise are of one taste. The truth is not created by the path but the fortunate may find that the proper path combined with the proper view and guidance help to strip away that conceptual framework and allow 'knowledge' to take the place of concepts. And even this is not enough. Once the knowledge is encountered, that knowledge must be brought into each and every moment of our lives and deaths.

This is not meant to be insulting or disrespectful but I find that the responses we get to a question like the OP (and most others, in fact) tells us more about the individual responding than it does about the original question. Whether its 'messed up' or not is open for interpretation and judgement. I love Chang's T.S. Elliott quote, never heard that one before.

I cant speak nippon but within my sleeve, I have Tokyo's four districts!

One place to start investigating this question, and the whole question of what enlightenment means, is to look very carefully and very deeply at what you mean by the word "you."

Great comments on this first chapter. I don't think I have much to add but here a few random observations. The other message I seem to be getting is one of acceptance of one's own station and acceptance of that of others. Each of us has the opportunity to live to our fullest potential and yet (to paraphrase Einstein) you can't judge a fish by asking it to climb a tree. And to those Daoists in his day practicing the whole host of methods for prolonging life, could he be questioning all of that? And the extremes of scale also imply that these concepts are pervasive. I'll even put it out there that the extreme scale of the Kun and Peng combined with water and air give me a sense of non-locality.

It is a very valuable practice. It's absolute simplicity but not at all easy to do. It does get easier with time. Not a tip or an insight, but once you get a feel for it I would challenge you to take it off the meditation cushion and into every possible aspect of your daily life. Enjoy!

I feel you brother.... And when they make it hard, there is no better opportunity for personal growth... Yuck... I really didn't intend the double entendre but it's cute so I'll leave it...

I will - I know him only through brief excerpts of parables, mostly Merton

Tolerance is a good thing, unless of course we're talking about opiates...

Thanks Donald, I hope you do have time in the future. I will check back to see. Why do you call Zhuangzi mystical and not philosophical? While his writings are more allegorical, they still speak to the intellect. To me, mysticism would refer more to meditation, energetic cultivation, tantric practices, and so on... like Nei Yeh perhaps. But then again, maybe I'm not reading Zhuangzi correctly. I don't read the classics much.

The thread was not started here... edit... but I'm glad it moved here and gave me the opportunity to see how far I have to go!

No surprise here. One who practices self cultivation through Daoist methods would consider themselves a Daoist. This will incorporate varying degrees of what would be described as 'formal religious rites,' often little or none. To these folks, the theory and philosophy are an afterthought and play little or no role in Daoist practice.

Sorry for not responding sooner - I haven't looked at this thread for a while. I don't think you're ignorant at all - maybe naive. And I mean that in the best possible way (having or showing unaffected simplicity of nature). There is not better state to be in if you wish to approach a study or practice of Daoism (or any spiritual path). I agree with you 100% when you say that "the seeking magical powers or immortality that just doesn't seem very Tao to me." And if that is what is important to "more devoted practitioners" I suspect that they are very likely to fail. Immortality is not really a symbol for something else. It means what you think but from a different perspective. Words fail me here. The question again comes down to 'what is your own true nature?' This is what Daoist cultivation is about, finding this out, and living it. And the mind that asks and answers questions will not find the answer. It is much too subtle and profound for language. And when you find it, your true nature, and you see yourself and the world from that perspective, then you will understand what the Daoists mean by immortality and magical powers. At least that's my view and I acknowledge that some will disagree.