doc benway

The exegesis into Buddhist doctrine is what should be in the Buddhist sub-forum, I think. It would be nice to focus here on the OP. My good friend performs tonglen as a part of a more personalized system of healing. He can describe many success stories of folks he's helped and I've spoken to a few of them. He's not an internet type fellow, however. I find tonglen to be a profoundly valuable practice for me as the practitioner. I've used it to help my daughter with very immediate results on one occasion, and with my son on another.

A few personal thoughts about the MCO. Before being taught the MCO, I practiced Zhan Zhuang for about a year, along with Tai Ji Quan. My teacher won't teach the meditation until a student is established and demonstrates a certain level of dedication and integrity. According to my teacher, the MCO is both a basic, foundation practice and a highly advanced practice. It is the first practice we focus on (after the basic standing). After about a year of MCO practice, I was given the opportunity to learn more advanced methods, however, no matter how advanced the practice becomes, there is always more one can benefit using the MCO method. My opinion and experience with Daoist methods is a bit different that most of what I read online and in books. Most resources focus on and emphasize the flow of the MCO, opening blockages, and the like. That is all well and good but the fundamental practice for me has really been about developing a very high degree of skill and accuracy in working with the 意 - Yi (mind of intent) and awareness of the internal environment. For me, it is analogous to discovering a 6th (if you are Buddhist oriented, let's say 7th) sense and learning how to utilize this in exploring the internal universe and, ultimately, the external universe (both of which are one and the same). Lots of good points made in this thread but I'd like to reinforce Songstan's recommendations in particular. This is all about paying attention to your inner world in every aspect of it's existence. Learning to feel what it feels like inside your skin. Specific points and paths are valuable but somewhat arbitrary as evidenced by the wide variety of different schools and methods. And, IMO, people inexplicably ignore the emotional and psychological aspects of themselves in these practices. It's fine to develop an awareness of internal energy and to create the energy body and all of that, but I think it's equally (?more) important to attend to the emotional and psychological aspects of mind. How do you feel? How do you deal with it? Why did you choose to do this over that? Why do you react this way to him and that way to her? Are your choices moving you to a place consistent with your core values, and so on... The most important aspect of Daoist meditation methods is to achieve what is referred to as a tranquil mind. If you read the old scriptures, like the Nei Yeh, you will find that this is virtually identical to what is being pointed to in other systems, Dzogchen in particular. As the mind begins to settle, all sorts of repressed stuff will surface. It can be distracting, terrifying, and even dangerous. This is why a credible teacher is so critical in these practices. All of the bad stuff that comes up needs to be faced, and eventually accepted and released. I like the analogy of "making space" for these things. They may or may not leave but we can find room for them, make peace with them (or at least a truce), and generally they lose their power. I've never used any of Chia's methods, so I can't comment on him. I've read a few of Bruce Frantzis' books and his basic methods are sound. That said, based on what is written in some of his books, I don't think he has a more than a superficial understanding of the "fire" methods, which includes the MCO.

This has nothing to do with translating the character 氣 and it has nothing to do with guessing at what is pointed at in books. It has to do with getting personal instruction with a lineage holder in Daoist arts and internal Chinese martial art training. The real Daoist methods are transmitted orally by direct instruction, they are not communicated clearly in books, by design. Once you have received proper instruction and spent time developing some personal experience and skill in the methods, then the writings become transparent and it is clear what is being pointed at. What you are describing is not using the Yi to guide the Qi. That is done in a very specific manner and is not dependent on the breathing process at all. It is often combined with the breathing process but not necessarily, and the two are not interchangeable. What you are doing is using visualization to breathe deeply into the Dan Tian, it is not the same as what Qi Chen Dan Tian refers to in martial arts practice. As a matter of fact, reverse abdominal breathing is often used when practicing the technique 氣沈丹田 by martial artists. Your other comment: "Why martial arts practitioners want to have the condition of "氣沈丹田(sink Chi to dan tian)".....??? It is because that is the best time which allows the body to generated the maximum physical strength possible." ...is equally erroneous. Certainly proper breathing is valuable in generating physical strength. 氣沈丹田 is used as a very basic foundation practice to provide the basis for developing internal strength. Concerning Qi, when you breath air, 氣, you are also always breathing energy. If you want to look at it from the scientific paradigm (which I know you prefer), you must look at every molecule and atom of air (nitrogen, oxygen, and everything else). Why do we breath? To absorb energy for living. Air contains that energy. Each of these atoms and molecules contains enormous amounts of energy. It may be a stretch for you to accept this (and I'm not asking you to) but even the space between the molecules is imbued with energy. Energy is related to the very act of your awareness interacting with the environment. The Daoists actually have a different character for energy which is contained in air (and food, and water, and everything else that is Zi Ran) - that character is 炁. It's only found in some old Daoist texts, charms, and ceremonial writings. It's now an archaic character that is no longer in active usage other than by Daoist mystics. It clearly points to that aspect of energy that is other than simply air or the process of breathing. And please do not attribute this definition to me, it is the way my teacher's lineage has passed down this information for a very long time. It is not my interpretation of writings in a book. It is a result of direct, personal instruction from a lineage holder who was born and trained in Taiwan. I offer this information up mainly to alert less experienced folks on the forum that the information you are presenting here is inaccurate and based solely on your own (mis)interpretation of what you read in books, not based on a traditional Daoist lineage instruction.

I saw Emily Rose - I liked it. The Conjuring looks intense. I still like horror films but over the past few years I've found myself drawn more to romantic films and comedies.

Very cool to hear, I hope that resonates well with you... I find Krishnamurti a little difficult to listen to so I have mostly read his stuff. As luck would have it, I watched a film last night that brought me to a very spiritual place. It's called "Good Dick" (no kidding) - the writer, director, and star is Marianna Palka.

This is simply wrong. 氣沈丹田 is a very basic nei gong technique that is used to develop skill in using the yi (mind of intent) to guide the qi to dan tian. I would urge anyone interested in Daoist methods to find a more accurate source of information.

Just wanted to pop in and say THANK YOU to all of the current mod team (whoever you are). Even though you all started after I quit, I feel a bond with you and appreciate your willingness to put up with the task.

That's the point - you're not supposed to 'get' it. If the brain can get it, it's not what I'm pointing to. When (if) you do head in that direction, you may soon come to find that there is nothing at all nebulous or 'wishy-washy' about it. That said, there is no need to waste your time on anything that doesn't seem right to you. Each of us has her own path to tread. Sure thing, however, I'm not sure if we're talking about spirituality...

Compare and contrast perhaps... I don't disagree with the significance of our emotional and psychological lives. In fact, I think there is nothing more important than a careful examination of this part of us. And I also agree that children freeze and starve and that nature seems indifferent. But that is only true when we choose to separate ourselves from nature and pretend that we are not 'it.' We are the very vehicle of nature's compassion. To say that nature is indifferent is a complete dismissal of our very existence. I don't mean to advocate that we adopt indifference or deny meaning in our lives. But I do think that there is an aspect of being that is other than that which the thinker thinks. Most of what you describe is a part of our narrative to ourselves. The choices, preferences, desires, pain, etc... I like to think about Krishnamurti's description of the possibility that something exists outside the sphere of our thoughts. Something that is beyond knowledge and memory and even language. Something always completely new and alive. This is a place that is untouched by choice and judgement, and even meaning or explanation. And he never tells us what it is, how to find it, or if it even exists. He just raises possibility and we get to do what we want with it. Just like we can with anything. The cool thing is that the first time I read something by him (To Be Human), I felt that he actual reached out from the grave and through decades of time to slap me and wake me up and show me that I had to work things out for myself - very powerful transmission! And please feel free to challenge anything I say. I appreciate the conversation with you.

Nice video - that's the way I always heard it should be!

Electrified pops! And chill moms propping them up Balance ying and yang...

names. so says Lao Tzu can never be the real thing... the real thing is Coke!

Stosh - I think it's our definition (or expectations?) of spirituality that differs.

I've had children and my best friend recently became a father. Lots and lots of meaning and, again, all of that is related to human expectation, desire, conditioning and all of that. Simply observing the baby and developing a relationship over time is a deeply spiritual experience but not really any 'meaning' involved per se. If the parent did not care about the child, that would be full of meaning. It would speak volumes about their psychology, emotional intelligence, and maturity, etc... Again, not so sure there is spiritual content there, at least not the way I look at spiritual content. Great point - I wrestle with this idea. I think I agree with you on this but I also think that the idea of personal perspective as truth transcends the actual content (that which is imbued with meaning). Hmmm, good question. It's not so much about giving up. In fact, as I write this, it is definitely NOT about giving up. It is precisely the questions that are alive. It is the answers that are dead. The question sparks something within us. For straight forward matters, an answer may be obvious. Sometimes, it is more subtle and complex and the answer requires investigation. And at other times, there is no answer or there may be paradox, or contradictions. And sometimes, today's answer is tomorrow's question. I guess my point is that it's more about allowing the question to be there and even to stimulate inquiry and yet not getting hung up on finding an answer or even that there is an answer to be found. Questions are alive - they stimulate and motivate us, they make life interesting. Answers are dead. They give us the illusion that we have mastered through understanding - more often than not, it is not truth. And when we spend too much time with questions and answers we miss all of the life that is going on around us.

I guess what I am saying is that much of the work I do and have done, that I consider to be spiritual, is moving away from, rather than towards conceptualization, intellectualization, and meaning. Meaning is a reflection of conditioning. What means alot to one person may mean nothing to the next. Certainly there is a lot of meaning to be found in all forms of communication and art. But I'm not sure that is where spirituality lies. Meaning is relative and connotes duality, discrimination, and judgement. Meaning is transient and will change based on perspective and context. Meaning is a projection of our conditioning and programming and has little to do with truth, which is independent of perspective and context. As I have progressed through different stages of spiritual inquiry, I find that it relates less and less to meaning and more and more to being. Looking for meaning is well and good and is a natural consequence of the human mind and verbal ability. But there are certain fundamental questions that arise where meaning just doesn't apply and contradiction is everywhere, and that is where spirituality begins, for me at least... In terms of the specific painting, I think it has many levels of interpretation and meaning - some relate to the paternalistic culture from which it arose, some relate to more basic concepts of humanity and deity, reproduction, the masculine and feminine archetypes, desire and repression of desire, and so on... Certainly a skillful and beautiful painting and it would fun to discuss it in detail. All of that said, it really does not touch anything in me at a spiritual level. That is a reflection of me, not of the painting.

I like this line as well.

What does meaning have to do with spirituality?

Wallace is a great communicator. Listen to him then read Nan Jang. And just be... _/\_

Good luck and enjoy the journey!

It is a skill one can develop with diligence and motivation. It gets easier with practice. It is related to practicing acceptance. And who claims life will be without conflict? ... conflict comes and goes. Letting go simply involves not being attached to the outcome or averse to the experience of conflict. It is there, be with it, then choose based on your values. Wu wei does not mean that we do not learn and grow, or act or react. It simply means not going against your nature. It is not going against oneself. It is the same as to not sin. If I intentionally walk some where I know I will be attacked, I can fight, run, or choose another approach. Its pretty simple. Do what is in your nature - the fighter will fight, the runner will run, the creative mind might find another way, like find another job...

Hmmm, not sure what you are looking for. I'll leave that up to you. I am practicing "being the empty boat" Feel free to take a poke at whatever you like. The more of us questioning our words, the better. I would enjoy your forgiveness and freely offer mine. Security in this life is illusion. The only security is acceptance of that fact. You are onto the correct approach here, I think. When I practice vulnerability, and lose my skin, I transcend the illusion of separation. Then the true meaning of sin becomes apparent - sin means to go against oneself. That is the beginning of compassion, and that is what is needed for forgiveness.

That is only a partial interpretation of the empty boat. It also means that it is YOU who are responsible - 100%. Who else is there to be angry at? You surround yourself with your story and your karma. Who is there to be angry at and who does one hold a grudge against? The only way to move forward is to let go of what you are holding on to.

Yeah, I don't get hung up on history too much. Actually, I think my teacher may have said that originally, the practice was 2 palms and the linking form to be more precise. Whatever... it's good stuff, and there's no doubt in my mind that the training has always involved infinite variations on the basic theme. I'm solely focusing on the oral transmission from my teacher in terms of what I practice. Frankly, I think the origins and knowledge have always been obscure - even in China, then and now. I'm blessed to have my teacher, I feel like I have a direct connection to the source. Then again, each generation adds and subtracts something to the art. That's part of the beauty as well.

I don't know if you are training with a master, but it seems like you are mixing systems and methods. I mean no disrespect. Proper training in Daoist methods includes very specific breathing instructions depending on the system. Obviously, Vipassana is a complete system in and of itself. My Daoist training does not utilize Vipassana breath methods, maybe there are schools that do, I don't know. For example, in our practice of the MCO, breath is not "an object" of attention, so there is nothing there to be fabricated, it remains natural - zi ran, of itself so... sometimes there is awareness of it and sometimes not, it is not the focus (except when it is the focus). You notice it and it is as it should be and you return to the exercise at hand (eg. the orbit and the focusing and perfecting and exploring of the points and their inter-relationship in time and space and so forth, according to your custom...). If you come to a system looking for something, it's important to give the method a chance to work before modifying it. Chances are, you are not going to improve on the traditional methods with a few weeks or months of experimentation. Unless you have a trustworthy resource guiding you in combing Vipassana with Daoist methods, I don't know what will come of it. You can fool around but these practices require a long period of proper and skillful practice (gong fu) to yield benefits. Random experimentation may take you far... but is just as likely to take you off course as on... Just sayin' Namaste.

The final product of iron shirt training is to build up the martial artist to fight full contact. At very high levels of achievement, one can withstand internal attacks. Of course, it also provides great resilience to external attacks (such as what is demonstrated with the parlor tricks you'll see on youtube). But the real McCoy is dealing with fajin and more penetrating force. There are some beneficial side effects which are enhanced by adapting the practice method with respect to tension and breathing (endurance, strength, flexibility, organ massage, etc...). But, at the same time there are risks. I've seen some really well trained folks with expert instruction hurt themselves with the training. It's challenging, even under the very best of circumstances. I know nothing of Chia's methods but I would never practice something like this from a book or video. Nor would I attempt to teach it in a book. I'd go so far as to say that anyone who does [edit. try to teach it in a book] is irresponsible and has not been properly trained. Caveat Emptor