doc benway

I don't think iron shirt qigong is necessary to achieve a very high degree of taiji skill. In fact, I think iron shirt training could be a distraction for a beginner. Adding iron shirt skill on top of taiji skill definitely kicks things up a notch, however... You'll know when your taiji is good enough to begin to understand and manipulate energy and add other practices. Iron shirt is good, iron palm is good, and there are other neigong practices that are even more powerful. Although I don't know anything about Mantak Chia's techniques so I have no opinion about them specifically. I would agree with the others that say this is not something to do without expert guidance.

I've only very rarely connected to visual art in a spiritual way - the few times have always been when viewing works in person. Off the top of my head, I can recall it happening both times I visited the Dali museum in Florida, looking at Francis Bacon works in NYC, van Gogh in Amsterdam, looking at the Mona Lisa at the Louvre, and the Pompideau in Paris. I've had many peak experiences with music, both listening and playing, live and recorded, and many very spiritual experiences while reading, though not necessarily works that would be found in the spiritual section in a library. Poetry and fiction often get me there. Even food will do it for me on occasion... That said, a few spiritual books and talks (mainly those of Demello, Krishnamurti, Osho, and Watts) have had a profound effect on me - more so than any painting, song, or meal...

I'll be the thorn and say - not necessarily. I know plenty of folks who have put a lot of time and "energy" into 'clearing blockages' and 'opening channels' and claim success yet, to me, have very little insight into the nature of themselves and things around them. While such energy work certainly may be associated with insight, it is not automatic. The energy work, after all, is simply a method of practice and, like any other, requires proper guidance and demeanor in order to reap benefits. One could counter that if the insight is not there, the channels are not open... I wouldn't argue against that point. On the other hand, many of the folks I know that are practicing these methods get themselves wrapped up in the energy paradigm and create a belief system out of that which is every bit as rigid and misguided as any other belief system.

I just finished reading American Gods by Neil Gaiman - fantastic book. I couldn't put it down. Highly recommended if you like fiction and mythology. As far as personal deities, there's just li'l ole me.

Zhuangzi's "Empty Boat" parable is something I refer to when I try to deepen my understanding and practice of forgiveness.

Well said

That's what my teacher told me - the original bagua is limited to circle walking and the first 3 palms. The remaining palms and more complicated patterns were added later and are give each stye it's unique flavor. I suspect taiji and xingyi are similar in that way.

And that perspective exists in every living thing. There is no one who is not 'me'... And yet, show me your 'me' - have you found it yet?

Good stuff gerard and zero, thanks!

I have some more time this morning and thought it would be fun to reply to this. Absolutely trivial... - narveen: a name, if you changed your name, would you change the one that sees through your eyes? - individual: adjective, describes your bag of skin and sensory apparatus; verbal convention that reinforces the illusion. Does this word really define who it is that types on your keyboard? - human being: scientific classification that further describes your biology; are you identical to every other human being? If not, who are you? - member of the ape species: see above - inhabitant of planet earth: if you relocated to the moon, would you be someone else? Is every inhabitant of the planet earth identical to you? - creation of almighty god: verbal convention defining your belief system; if you changed your belief system, the one who believes would still be there. The sad irony is that this verbal convention prevents you from getting closer to the god you imagine... it doesn't matter whether or not I can cut through all of that. And frankly, the toughest for me so far was 'the brain'... What matters is whether you are compelled to try for yourself. If not... what does it matter? That's fine too.

Sorry - I just saw this. What is there to overcome? Are you saying that anything and anyone that does not share your specific experience does not exist?

No offense taken here... I think you've been most respectful. To address the relationship between practice and theory a bit further. Once again, most of what you read in print and online is fairly inaccurate so you probably know less about the actual practices than you think. And there is no understanding of the methods without direct personal experience. It is not something that lends itself to verbal description in the absence of direct experience. Daoism, first and foremost, is about embracing your own true nature. The reason that practices are necessary (or shall I say, offered?) is that nearly all of us are far removed from our "true nature." We have been conditioned and programmed since birth and just about everything we occupy ourselves with in this life takes us further from, rather closer to our nature. So the question arises, what is that true nature and how to discover and explore it? The first step is an investigation of one's self... There is nowhere else that you are in closer proximity to reality than within yourself. No book or lecture can tell you what you can find by looking inside. There are many different ways of doing that and, IMO, no one person or method has the only answer. All methods are simply guidelines to help you to explore who you are and how you relate to everything around (and inside) of you. One thing that most of the methods have in common is to try and show us that we are something other than the incessant mental chatter that occupies most of our awareness (both awake and asleep). The Daoist methods are particularly effective at this but so are others. Much of what you read, especially on the web, has to do with people lusting after better health, longer life, magical powers, and so on... At the risk of offending anyone, these are spiritually immature goals. They have little to do with the process and result of spiritual inquiry. Sure, we all want to be healthy and live a long time (well, most of us), and good health is certainly important to enhance and support spiritual and energetic cultivation. My point is that the methods exist for a reason, they do work for many, although one of the first things my teacher told me when I started practicing is that there are no guarantees for success.... But it is misleading to think of these practices as a simple prescription for power, sexual potency, or immortality. It is much more subtle and profound than that. One of the most important aspects of Daoist training (IMO and based on my teacher's methods), is that it be a personal journey that is not biased by the experiences, expectations, and conditioning of others. This is one reason why talking to others about our experiences (especially for beginners) can not only be unhelpful but misleading and distracting. The journey must be a personal one. Sure, a teacher can show you a method and periodically give you guidance, but you must do the work yourself and reach your own conclusions. And if you do that, no one can ever take that away from you. Once you see truth, it is very clear what is false. I can say that my practice has definitely helped me to have a deeper understanding of myself, everything around me, and the theory. When it comes to Daoist practices, my experience has been that reading does little to help, and is more likely to be misleading than enlightening. On the other hand, once I have had certain insights and experiences in my practice, I find that I understand much more of what I do read of the theory, be that traditional Daoist texts or other sources. It's all pointing to the same underlying truth. If the Daoist path of cultivation is not a good fit for you, that is fine. There are plenty of other paths to follow and as Krishnamurti so succinctly put it.... "The truth is a pathless land."

Here's a link I like regarding Nei Yeh. I also like Roth's translation.

I like "wake up!" in the context of Anthony Demello's teachings.

You have answered all of my questions. What more is there to say? I don't know how to use words to share experience with you. Sorry... I think once the experience is there, then words can be shared.

Nice quote, cat. I like to look at this as an invitation to know myself. The person of virtue can know others because she knows herself. Generally speaking, we are so far removed from the other person that we are wrapped up in our own story. We love and hate but it is our own image of our self loving and hating our image of someone else; without ever really relating to that person. They never even enter the equation! At another level, we are being asked if we are clear enough to know whether to love and hate. And can we even distinguish between the two? And don't both define each other in this context? As far as burning away, much of our emotional life, I think, can be used to purify us when approached skillfully. My practice partner and I have been using sound for purification, combed with meditation and qigong.

Thanks RV, nice to 'see' you too! [edit - Sorry, this is Chapter 9] 1 Those able to transform One thing are called 'Spiritual'; 2 Those able to change One affair are called 'wise'. The practice is about transformation. A moment ago we are told that when thought enters, we are lost. This transformation is what is being talked about when we refer to alchemy. We are transforming ourselves from conditioned, programmed passengers on the 'thought train' to liberated seekers who are seeking to master stability, stillness, and the art of listening and watching. What are they listening, watching, sitting and waiting for? For life and truth to reveal herself. When you take that first step toward transformation, it is related to one-ness. And in other translations this may be referred to as "keeping the one" or "keeping the one point", this is a more specific technique of attending to (being mindful of) a specific point in the body. And I think there are many layers here about what one-ness refers to. It is also the exploration of where "I" begin and everything around me "ends" - the illusion of separateness. And this is just scratching the surface. But something happens when we begin this practice in a skillful manner, and that attention to one's nature leads us to: 謂之神 We call him/her 'spiritual' or 'spirit-like' or 'of the spirit'. In a more practical sense, this is reference to the fact that if you begin to master the process of using Yi to guide Qi and generate Jing, then the next level of transformation occurring is the arising of or awareness of Shen - 神. So then can we bring this process out of the cave and into our lives and relationships? Can this inform our every act and choice? Can it replace the endless monkey chatter in our heads and the rote, uninformed lives we are leading? This is wisdom. More later, gonna go practice!

7 -As for essence (Jing); 8 -it is the 'essence' of energy (Qi) - pointing us toward the relationship of Jing to Qi. This is something that must be experienced and cultivated through your specific practice. Daoist method uses the Yi to guide the Qi - this generates the Jing. Lines 7/8 can also read (Roth): -The vital essence (Jing): it is the essence of the vital energy (Qi) -When the vital energy (Qi) is guided [by Yi], it [Jing] is generated These lines are instructing us to use the Yi to guide the Qi (eg using the MCO), to generate the Jing 9 -Qi's Dao is to flourish - Qi won't be restrained, it's not something "you" "have" - it is not contained, not in the body or the dan tians, they are only antennae, the way I feel it. Qi is an awareness, not a possession. It is non-local. We only interact with it. 10-12 - To flourish is to think, to think is to know, to know is where to stop - a simple, yet profound guide to the quality of perception that relates to Jing and Qi and the arising of names, discrimination, knowledge. As thought arises, naming arises, as naming and discrimination arise, the truth is lost..... 13/14 All forms of the heart (xin); Crossing over to knowledge loses life. Another translation of 13/14 is (Roth): Whenever the forms of mind (xin) have excessive knowledge.... your vitality is lost. When the thought enters, the quality of perception/awareness which is how the Yi relates to Qi, is gone like a spark. The first translation emphasizes that by using heart for xin and contrasting that with knowledge. But heart and mind are related in this - xin. Roth uses forms of mind which I think is closer to how we would think of xin and it's role in this context. Vitality, life, mindfulness, holding the one, whatever you want to call it... this quality of attention or feeling (I refer to it as a 6th sense) that is cultivated through these exercises (eg MCO), is extinguished when thought and knowledge interfere. This is not to be thought of or 'figured out' or 'understood' - it is a distinct and specific quality of attention and awareness in the body that is not of thought or intellect. And that is where JIng, Qi, and Shen operate.

zhang 8 "Alignment" 1 If able to be aligned, able to be calm, 2 Only then can you be stable. 3 With a stable heart within your bosom, 4 Eyes and ears acute and clear, 5 Four limbs firm and sure, 6 You can thereby make a dwelling-place for Essence. 7 As for Essence: 8 It is the Essence of Energy. 9 Energy's Dao is to flourish, 10 To flourish is to think 11 To think is to know 12 To know is where to stop. 13 All forms of the Heart 14 Crossing over to knowledge lose life. Some random thoughts about Chapter 8. The foundation of Daoist practice is tranquility. One must have a dedicated practice area where you are certain not to be disturbed. There are several characteristics that are recommended but the most important is that it be free from interruption. Next, to achieve the tranquil state, one needs to be physically, emotionally, and psychologically stable. Stable physical posture is critical, as is a stable, clam, and abiding presence and heart. Eyes and ears acute and clear, four limbs firm and sure - we want no distraction but we also don't want to doze off. Most people close their eyes early on in practice but it's even more skillful to leave them open yet not be distracted by the visual image, auditory input, etc... Similarly, stability of the physical body is critical to allow deepening. I also think these lines point to the need to see clearly in your life and relationships, hear clearly (that is - listen actively, understand what is being said,.... and firmness of the limbs refers to physical health and preparation for dedicated training. More to come (like it or not! )

This is a great example of a skill that is developed in Taijiquan - 聽勁 (ting jin), which is even more valuable in daily life.

Proof? Who are you? Who does operate your muscles, if not me? Who digests your food? Who balances your homeostasis? Who out there is not 'me'? If you can answer that, you have your proof. If not... you have work to do. No need to apologize. I'm pleased that you're entertained, it makes me happy. I have no idea how I figured it out; in fact, I never figured anything out. It wasn't like that, it was more like opening my eyes for the first time - no rhyme or reason. Just perspective... I was just looking out at a field one day while my wife was driving and there it was. It has nothing to do with belief, it's simple certainty through direct experience.

Very good stuff, thanks for sharing that. I think that variations on a theme with respect to what is emphasized is what makes each style unique and beautiful. We practice both 龍形八卦遊身掌 (Swimming Dragon style) and Sun Style and it is instructive to compare and contrast the differences and similarities. I prefer the swimming dragon style and focus on that right now but, in the long run, I think any credible style can get you where you want to be provided you are a good student and you have a good teacher.

I think practices have value. Also, letting go of practices has value. One of the most important lessons we learn from/about our practices is that, ultimately, they are not needed. And I think these are lessons that each of us needs to work through on our own, in our own time, and in our own way. Peter Fenner puts it beautifully when he says, "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!"

Sorry to drag this up but I haven't been here for a bit. My teacher also emphasized these points and I find both have been critically important in physical and energetic growth. Our lineage comes from Cheng Tinghua through Chen Haiting (among others).

Most of what I've read in books and online about the practices and "mystical" traditions in Daoism is misleading, misunderstood, and bastardized (as Shanlung so eloquently pointed out) as compared to what I've gotten from my teacher. Even some of the most "respectable" resources out there are very superficial or downright misguided. Most derive from a few, limited sources, often 2nd or 3rd generation or worse, and the decay in accuracy and understanding is exponential. So much of the old, core writings is allegory and often very tricky to decipher without guidance. I'm much more well versed in cultivation practice than theory - I can't quote very much of Laozi or Zhuangzi and I don't know much about Yijing, or Fengshui; but I've practiced Zuowang, Zhanzhuang, and Neijia, for about 14 years consistently. I don't practice any sort of deity worship and don't understand that aspect of Daoism very much, but shamanism does become a core element of advanced practice. In my experience, the practices stand side by side with theory just as life experience stands alongside interpretation and intellectualization. The two are related, clearly. My teacher talks very negatively about theory and scholarship and respects only practice and direct experience/transmission. Certain profound changes in my perspective and insight occurred in association with dedicated practice. Whether there is a cause and effect relationship, who is to say? I suspect there is... But there are always other factors in life as well, especially if you're not sequestered in a cave or monastery. So I'd say one should first and foremost master this: Any "method" can work, no need to get too hung up on the specifics. But, then again, no method is a guarantee of success. And who is to define what success looks like? A few recent masters that are a bit more directly accessible for some in the West are Nisargadatta, Ramana, Krishnamurti and Demello. At least for me, they were able to guide me [edit for clarity] through their words. But again, they are simply a starting point for personal practice. Very nice selection - big +1 for Blofeld for anyone who wants to read about Chan and Daoism. Another good English resource is Andy Ferguson. From his book, Zen's Chinese Heritage: - Pei Xiu presented Huángbò with a text he had written on his understanding of Chan. - Huángbò placed the text down without looking at and after a long pause asked, “Do you understand?” - Pei Xiu replied, “I don’t understand.” - Huángbò said, “If it can be understood in this manner, then it isn’t the true teaching. If it can be seen in paper and ink, then it’s not the essence of our order.”