doc benway

Proof? Who are you? Who does operate your muscles, if not me? Who digests your food? Who balances your homeostasis? Who out there is not 'me'? If you can answer that, you have your proof. If not... you have work to do. No need to apologize. I'm pleased that you're entertained, it makes me happy. I have no idea how I figured it out; in fact, I never figured anything out. It wasn't like that, it was more like opening my eyes for the first time - no rhyme or reason. Just perspective... I was just looking out at a field one day while my wife was driving and there it was. It has nothing to do with belief, it's simple certainty through direct experience.

Very good stuff, thanks for sharing that. I think that variations on a theme with respect to what is emphasized is what makes each style unique and beautiful. We practice both 龍形八卦遊身掌 (Swimming Dragon style) and Sun Style and it is instructive to compare and contrast the differences and similarities. I prefer the swimming dragon style and focus on that right now but, in the long run, I think any credible style can get you where you want to be provided you are a good student and you have a good teacher.

I think practices have value. Also, letting go of practices has value. One of the most important lessons we learn from/about our practices is that, ultimately, they are not needed. And I think these are lessons that each of us needs to work through on our own, in our own time, and in our own way. Peter Fenner puts it beautifully when he says, "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!"

Sorry to drag this up but I haven't been here for a bit. My teacher also emphasized these points and I find both have been critically important in physical and energetic growth. Our lineage comes from Cheng Tinghua through Chen Haiting (among others).

Most of what I've read in books and online about the practices and "mystical" traditions in Daoism is misleading, misunderstood, and bastardized (as Shanlung so eloquently pointed out) as compared to what I've gotten from my teacher. Even some of the most "respectable" resources out there are very superficial or downright misguided. Most derive from a few, limited sources, often 2nd or 3rd generation or worse, and the decay in accuracy and understanding is exponential. So much of the old, core writings is allegory and often very tricky to decipher without guidance. I'm much more well versed in cultivation practice than theory - I can't quote very much of Laozi or Zhuangzi and I don't know much about Yijing, or Fengshui; but I've practiced Zuowang, Zhanzhuang, and Neijia, for about 14 years consistently. I don't practice any sort of deity worship and don't understand that aspect of Daoism very much, but shamanism does become a core element of advanced practice. In my experience, the practices stand side by side with theory just as life experience stands alongside interpretation and intellectualization. The two are related, clearly. My teacher talks very negatively about theory and scholarship and respects only practice and direct experience/transmission. Certain profound changes in my perspective and insight occurred in association with dedicated practice. Whether there is a cause and effect relationship, who is to say? I suspect there is... But there are always other factors in life as well, especially if you're not sequestered in a cave or monastery. So I'd say one should first and foremost master this: Any "method" can work, no need to get too hung up on the specifics. But, then again, no method is a guarantee of success. And who is to define what success looks like? A few recent masters that are a bit more directly accessible for some in the West are Nisargadatta, Ramana, Krishnamurti and Demello. At least for me, they were able to guide me [edit for clarity] through their words. But again, they are simply a starting point for personal practice. Very nice selection - big +1 for Blofeld for anyone who wants to read about Chan and Daoism. Another good English resource is Andy Ferguson. From his book, Zen's Chinese Heritage: - Pei Xiu presented Huángbò with a text he had written on his understanding of Chan. - Huángbò placed the text down without looking at and after a long pause asked, “Do you understand?” - Pei Xiu replied, “I don’t understand.” - Huángbò said, “If it can be understood in this manner, then it isn’t the true teaching. If it can be seen in paper and ink, then it’s not the essence of our order.”

I wonder how long it will take for an open acknowledgement that consciousness does not stop at individual bags of skin and exoskeleton? Consciousness, awareness, whatever you want to call it, is non local. There are levels of organization, communication, and perception that are too foreign and subtle to us to be recognizable at both larger and smaller scales (community, ecosystem, planet, cell, organ system), not just from one individual organism to the next. Our verbal and sensory sarcophagus are very difficult to transcend but it can be done.

I think the conundrum is related to taking too dualistic approach to the question. This is to be investigated through practice and direct experience. Intellect doesn't help much, though it's hard to convince the intellect that it is not needed... it would have us think otherwise!

Some words from an old guy - In my 50's, I can say that I don't feel withdrawn from active accomplishments. I do what I can as well as I can (or at least, as well as I feel like it - I get lazy sometimes). Been playing some pretty fair bass lately and progress in meditation and martial training has never been stronger (although it seems much slower...). My teacher told me that internal power is slow to develop and will never develop in someone less than 40 to 50 so your deadline is unfortunately young if you have interest in that sort of thing. I didn't understand fajin until I was about 48 or so... and I'm just starting to understand the circle and the vortices in Baguazhang. So much stuff to work on and so little life... I feel like I'm becoming more confident and relaxed in my profession and have come to peace with many of its challenges, though I still get pissed off sometimes. I love my family more than ever. Even starting to let go of some of the negative feelings with respect to my parents and other close people in my life. I feel blessed every day. I feel more love for other folks than ever. There's plenty of fear there too, but things are somewhat balanced. Less powerful? Physically - yes, but there are aspects of power, endurance, acceptance, persistence, that make up for the physical restrictions. That said, when I was ~ 51 I decided to get more flexible and for the first time in my life achieved enough flexibility to put my palms flat on the floor with my knees extended and relax into this for as long as I choose. I dramatically improved my chronic back pain as a result. I feel more powerful in many ways than when I was younger. I would say I enjoy things as much now as ever though the expectations are more modest and the expression of the drives more sparse. But the enjoyment is there. Close to death? That was already eloquently addressed above - each moment is but a moment from death. To live with that conviction is liberating. [edit - I'm referring to Mr. Marbles, a wise man, IMO _/\_ ] Ugly? I haven't really met any person whose physical appearance was uglier than the idea and emotion you are communicating. True ugliness is deeper and more subtle than fat, wrinkles, yellow teeth, sagging, hair, lack of... But that ugliness is always with us. I would bet that there are plenty of folks your own age and younger that you find ugly. There are physically beautiful people that make me sick and fat or homely people that turn me on. If I'm satisfied with myself and don't attach or expect, I'm beautiful. When I try to live up to your expectations, there is the beginning of ugliness. And I also have that relationship to attend to in myself. Beauty and ugliness define each other and balance each other in youth and age. Life is certainly painful. And so many ups and downs. Moments of insight and delight and stretches of anguish and bitterness... Wishing someone a long life is blessing and cursing as life is full of both. You can come to accept both and live in freedom or struggle and long for death. It's simply a matter of perspective. It's a breath away. PS I think Cicero was correct and he is giving us a prescription to help us age beautifully, if we have the interest in doing so. To me this has something to do with faith. The decision to continue on despite the pain. I recognize that faith is a bad word to some folks, but when you can let go of beliefs and expectations and concern for what others expect of you, and simply accept what is left over, what is staring you in the face, and know that is truth and it is ok - this is faith, and it is a very good thing for me to practice.

Karma is nothing more than the actions you choose and the how they play out. Your approach to the job is what determines your karma, not the job description.

Interesting, how would you apply that to the USA?

Anyone interested in further discussion of Nei Yeh? I haven't been around for a while and have had little taste for most of the discussions on the board... Nei Yeh has always been intriguing, however.

I have a taijiquan student with a severe auto-immune inflammatory disorder. He could barely walk when he joined us. Now he is competing (and winning) in forms, doing some push hands, weapons, teaching, and his life is transformed. Really amazing to see. He still has ups and downs but everything has shifted to a much better and stronger place for him. We emphasize standing meditation practice for people with these sorts of problems, in addition to qigong, taijiquan, and for interested students, Daoist meditation. All of it is of enormous value for health and well being. My personal experience has been that our emotional and psychological lives play a major role in our physical health as well and that they need appropriate attention along with our other practices - and this is well accomplished by practicing awareness and acceptance. Good luck!

Queens of the Stone Age .... like Clockwork http://www.kcrw.com/music/programs/mb/mb130611queens_of_the_stone_/hd-showcase

Are you practicing Bagua currently, Mudfoot?

Some thoughts, for what they're worth... Don't try to erase doubt, rather let go of the need for security. Question everything, if it is truth it will eventually become obvious. When it's obvious, the doubt will no longer bother you. Doubt will fall away when its ready and nothing you do can force it or rush it as far as I can tell. It's a blessing if you can simply enjoy the process and trust your instinct. Living with the question is much more valuable than looking for the answer. Good luck!

I agree, the word form can be applied to an individual movement, eg. peng. It can also be applied to a combination of movements. In general, I mean sequential combination of postures when I say form and I use the word posture to refer to an individual technique, eg. peng or advance step. This is how I try to distinguish between the two for clarity. If you know something of Xingyiquan training, you have experienced how each of the 5 elements and 12 animals (depending on your style) are isolated "forms" that are drilled individually. There are then trained with partners, in combinations, with different footwork patterns, etc... Martial Taijiquan training is exactly the same. The form has it's place and purpose but is a very small part of the martial training method. You see that explicitly in Xingyiquan training because it has retained the martial elements in the hands of most teachers. It is the opposite in Taijiquan as most teachers have either abandoned or never received the martial training methods.

Yes - according to the classics and my teacher, Taijiquan seems to have its roots in the 13 postures and perhaps these martial techniques were married to methods of qigong and neigong to eventually birth what we know as modern schools of Taijiquan. Learning the 13 postures without pinning them to the form is no different that pinning them to the form. You either learn the posture or not. If anything, instead of focusing on remembering a long (and unbalanced) series of movements, you could learn each posture individually and fully (on both sides) before moving on to the next. This would be the more martial way to do it and would sacrifice some of the benefits of the qigong aspect of the form. It would also be boring for many modern practitioners and would probably result in low retention. That wasn't an issue when martial arts were needed for martial purposes. I don't put too much credibility in detailed, early historical considerations because so much of it is conjecture, heresay, exaggeration, and fluff. It's hard to know exactly when the forms and modern name were codified. Nevertheless, it seems fairly likely to me from the classics that the postures were practiced long before any forms, whatever name we choose to apply.

I haven't followed anything here in a long time but I read the first few posts in this thread completely out of any context and, as usual Deci Belle.... _/\_ Lineage is meaningful only when alive and embodied in form and spirit. Otherwise what do we have but a list of names and claims - might as well burn it. The truth knows the truth when she sees herself... I love the story told by Anthony Demello which is marginally related to your earlier posts but I take any opportunity as an excuse to share it: "Let me end this with a lovely story. There was a man who invented the art of making fire. He took his tools and went to a tribe in the north, where it was very cold, bitterly cold. He taught the people there to make fire. The people were very interested. He showed them the uses to which they could put fire - they could cook, could keep themselves warm, etc. They were so grateful that they had learned the art of making fire. But before they could express their gratitude to the man, he disappeared. He wasn't concerned with getting their recognition or gratitude; he was concerned about their well being. He went to another tribe, where he again began to show them the value of his invention. People were interested there, too, a bit too interested for the peace of mind of their priests, who began to notice that this man was drawing crowds and they were losing their popularity. So they decided to do away with him. They poisoned him, crucified him, put it any way you like. But they were afraid now that the people might turn against them, so they were very wise, even wily. Do you know what they did? They had a portrait of the man made and mounted it on the main altar of the temple. The instruments for making fire were placed in front of the portrait, and the people were taught to revere the portrait and to pay reverence to the instruments of fire, which they dutifully did for centuries. The veneration and the worship went on, but there was no fire. Where's the fire? Where's the love? Where's the drug uprooted from your system? Where's the freedom? This is what spirituality is all about. Tragically, we tend to lose sight of this, don't we? This is what Jesus Christ is all about. But we overemphasized the "Lord, Lord", didn't we? Where's the fire? And if worship isn't leading to the fire, if adoration isn't leading to love, if the liturgy isn't leading to a clearer perception of reality, if God isn't leading to life, of what use is religion except to create more division, more fanaticism, more antagonism? It is not from lack of religion in the ordinary sense of the word that the world is suffering, it is from lack of love, lack of awareness.

Very nice zs - I wish I could show you my friend's qigong - golden eagle shares a vision It really integrates beautifully into the bagua.

Keep reading!

Thanks! Nice to "see" you too z. Nope, it's just my opinion that one's time and money are MUCH better spent on personal instruction. I don't think its possible to develop meaningful skill in Taijiquan by studying a book or video, no matter who wrote/made it - even my own teacher. Sure, you can play around with the movements but one lesson from a good teacher is worth more than any book or video to a beginner. Once you have a few years of good instruction and practice, books can be useful to check one's progress. Also, they can be helpful references to someone studying with a teacher. Early in my training, I bought the book "Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle" by Kuo Lien-Ying - one of the best books available on the subject, IMO. The first time I read it, I understood about a chapter, then it was all "Chinese" to me. After 6 months or so, I went back to it and understood several chapters. A year or so later, I understood half the book and so on. Eventually the whole thing made sense. I wasn't learning from the book but it was reinforcing the discoveries and skills i was developing through my practice. Once the foundation is there, one can learn from any book or video - a yoga book, a golf video, anything that relates to physical movement, attention, focus, discipline, etc... But the basic foundation comes from the teacher and the teaching. It's too subtle to transmit in a book or video. Nothing more or less than my personal opinion, FWIW. And don't forget the value of free advice!

If you would like to learn Taijiquan, I would urge you to not spend a penny on books or videos. Save your money until you can afford to find a credible teacher. There is no substitute. As you read the debates about which style is best and why the 24 forms are artificial and all of that, remember this - a good teacher can teach you the true essence of Taijiquan using any form or no form. In fact, forms are a relatively recent invention. The original Taijiquan had no set sequences of movements. The 24 forms can be a wonderful vehicle for learning but only in the right hands. As the saying goes (more or less) there are three critical components to learning - the right teacher, the right student, the right teaching. I won't get into the lineage argument because both shanlung and justbhappy are speaking truth, albeit with different words and definitions. Nevertheless - if you are a dedicated student with a genuine desire to learn Taijiquan, you will eventually find the teacher and it won't be a book or video. Good luck!

So easy a child can do it! Nice to see you both here. Have a beautiful Sun Day.

I like to internalize that point where the ocean meets the sky and find the horizon inside.

My all time favorite has to be the Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo Lien-Ying. Every time I pick it up I find all kinds of stuff. Usually what seems to happen is that the reading validates or sheds light on something I've found in practice more than actually teaching me knew things. What are your recommendations?