doc benway

When the witness is there, there is already separation. Krishnamurti put it succinctly - truth is a pathless land.

Speaking of impeccable allies, I have been blessed with a best friend who is a shaman and the most impeccable human being I've ever met. My practice has been headed in that direction for several years now.

Be careful. The idea that I need an impeccable Ally is also a belief... The very idea that impeccability is essential or even beneficial is a story (belief system) in and of itself. The idea that anything is needed, that there is a benefit to become something other than what already is... and all of that jazz. But I do agree with much of your narrative.

Wonderful program. The irony of trying to restore and preserve the great art of the traditions founded on the truth of impermanence is beautifully captured.

Further similarities between Dzogchen and Dao - Five elements - lots of obvious (and more subtle) overlap and common ground. Training methods - the qualities and skills we master in Daoist methods are very similar to those developed in Shamatha, Vipasanna, etc... Compare Song, Jing, and Ziran to Clarity, Stability, Vividness. Compare working with intent and the development and refinement of the energy body with the deity, body, breathing, color methodologies.

Thanks for your concern regarding my practice and progress. In the context of manitou's post, the "who I am" I am referring to in my reply is the mundane "me." The one who lives in the mitote, hurts other people, enters into relationships, has problems, desires, expectations, and all of that. I believe manitou's point is that, in order to approach the deeper question of "who (when) am I," we must first dig through our story, really turn the light of awareness on the darkness of ourselves and come to understand and eventually accept, and then let go of all of that. Once that work is done, we can open up from there. I've been doing this work for about a decade. Until that work is done, it will be repressed and will eventually come up later. PS I also believe that this work is an important part of living impeccably, living as a warrior in the Toltec tradition.

I've spent so much time and energy working on who I am, what I do, my relationships with those in my life, my relationship with myself. Such a big fucking beautiful mess. Years of scrutiny, adjustment, learning to take responsibility, then learning to forgive myself, then learning to forgive others. To be honest, I'm still working on those last two. When you can empty yourself of all that, and it's very quiet, then you can hear the truth. And it's so quiet and elusive but one day it just shouts so loudly that the echo is there forever. Painful work and so liberating. Great post Barb _/\_

It was sort of coming from a place of remembering direct experience of the world seeing through my eyes... then everything is the center and there is no point of reference, equally absent intent. No forward or back, no now and no then. Act from that perspective, always. What would that be like? Could that be the method? But what action and who to take it? Something like that.

Not confusing at all, actually. Just difficult to try fit into these little squiggly, dark lines and internal narration. Dao is the same - yin and yang dependently originated, no end ... no beginning ... collapsing into wu ji (emptiness) ... non-dual (tai ji) ... shake up all the words and concepts in a bag and sitting in silence, listen to the mystery unfold! If you're quiet enough, it will hear you.

I understand - forgive me for using the wrong symbol. In my view, your point is equally valid in Buddhism and Daoism in general. I could similarly say: "There is no origination of any kind in Dzogchen or Madhyamaka." I generally avoid Buddhist discussion because I'm not one to be too concerned with semantics and definitions. That sort of stuff is too distracting... If you focus on the finger, the differences between Dzogchen and Dao are obvious. If you gaze at the moon, the similarities are striking.

Would you prefer that I use the symbols 'd-e-p-e-n-d-e-n-t o-r-i-g-i-n-a-t-i-o-n' rather than 'm-u-t-u-a-l a-r-i-s-i-n-g?' Or do you mean to say that this concept is not a part of the teachings of Dzogchen?

I will respond to your question with another question. What is your justification for asking others to define Dao when your very first quotation reminds us that it cannot be defined?

Probably no need to worry about that.

What is..... simply is. Our concepts, symbols, and descriptions will never change that. The major spiritual traditions are all fingers pointiing to the same moon with their multicolored fingers. The similarities between Daoism and Dzogchen are striking and extend right down to the core concepts such as mutual arising and the complementarity of opposites. To me, that simply reinforces the sophistication and effectiveness of each approximation. Natural perfection is great book for anyone intetested in Dzogchen (and maybe even moreso for those who are not!)

Impeccable comes from pecare which means "to sin" which means to go against God. The Toltec view recognizes the non- duality of man and God and so defines impeccable as not going against oneself. It is easily misinterpreted and twisted for the purposes of exploitation but is very nicely explained in that tradition. PS Thanks to everyone - very nice contributions

Movement and stillness both have their places in meditative practices. In my tradition (Daoist) the majority of the stages I've been taught involve quiet and still sitting yet there is at least one technique that involves spontaneous movement, as well as other body positions. Most Buddhist methods are practiced without physical movement however walking meditation has an important place. When sitting or lying down during practice there are differing views on whether it is better to force the student to avoid all movement vs allowing them to make periodic, minor adjustmets to avoid discomfort and distractiin. To the OP - to get a specific answer you need to clarify what specific practice you are inquiring about.

Mindful breathing would be a good start. Any qigong or yoga you are comfortable with would help. I also think that spending time and offering your undivided attention to your dying relative is a valuable practice. Good luck in this difficult time.

Totally agree with above. Ayahuasca can be very unforgiving and should not be used without guidance any more than potent pharmaceuticals. Things that can help depression include - - addressing situational triggers (most often relationship issues for women and career issues for men) - mindfulness practices with guidance and support - spending time in nature - body related practices (taiji, qigong, yoga) - physical exercise - proper diet - restoration of normal diurnal cycle - meds (in cases associated with psychosis)

It might be helpful to first define meditation. Otherwise we are doing the apples and oranges thing.

For anyone interested in the Toltec paradigm, I'd recommend the writings of Don Miguel Ruiz. Very simple, practical, and powerful, only not as sexy as Castaneda. The way to begin to approach the Nagual is to decide to live the life of a warrior. The five initial weapons in your arsenal are: - be impeccable in word and deed - take nothing personally - let go of expectations - be totally committed - believe nothing and learn to listen Very powerful stuff if you live it.

I am by no means an experienced Dzogchen practitioner but I'd like to offer a perspective about transmission FWIW. I find it to be a subtle communication between master and student regarding the way in which one approaches the subject matter - it is beyond words and action and seems to involve stance, perspective, and receptivity. It's not so much that I am given something but rather I am opened up and prepared to have direct experience or insight. I find it very hard to verbalize or even conceptualize as it occurs on multiple levels and really seems to be a way to help the student to abandon conceptualization and embrace being and more direct contact. I realize that I'm not really saying anything either but there it is, I don't think it is really about something that can be said anyway - isn't that the whole point?

Sorry - duplicate

In my view, attempting to live without food and drink is distinctly anti-Daoist. Daoism is about being natural, unforced, un-contrived. It is about being an authentic human. Humans are blessed with a mouth, teeth, taste, hunger, thirst, and an elegant digestive system. To try and eschew those natural endowments and requirements to follow an idea created by the ego-mind is folly. But then again, it does seem that foolishness is the natural tendency of many humans as well... The other error here is the idea that Qi is a nutrient. In my experience, whatever it is that we label with the symbols Q and I, or C, H, and I, is much more pervasive and fundamental and much less tangible and substantive than that.

Nice list, thanks for posting that. Here is another great resource for books on Dzogchen - http://www.namsebangdzo.com/Books_on_Dzogchen_s/2308.htm It has links to my two favorites - Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen tr. Keith Dowman Buddhahood Without Meditation by Dudjom Lingpa

I know its a dirty word to some, but a more succinct group of symbols that could be used are G, O, and D. I had a similar experience several years ago. I simply 'woke up' while riding in a car, looking at the sun setting over a field and I understood I was the eyes and ears of the world. An aperture through which the universe becomes self aware. It was devastating and liberating at the same time. I knew in that moment that everything is OK and that I was never born and can never die. I understood "I am that" as Nisargadatta puts it. I laughed for days - my family thought I was going crazy so I had to hide it. I tried to describe it to my Shifu and just couldn't find the words. He looked at me with a serious expression and asked "Are you trying to tell me that you realized that you are God?" I was shocked to hear him use that wording because he's a Daoist from Taiwan but that really struck a cord with me and I said "Yes, that's it, that's exactly what it felt like!" He leaned back in his chair, smiled and said "Keep practicing" referring to the Daoist meditation I study with him. My feeling about this experience is that it is a precious gift. It is a glimpse of truth. Christians would call it Grace. Some people try and try and never have this experience. I think such a gift should be treated with reverence. It is a priceless opportunity and can change your life forever if approached in that way. In particular, this is a way toward the meaning of love and the practice of true compassion, as Nisargadatta says in my sig below. At the same time, it is just an experience and it's important not to get too attached or to seek to replicate it. I think it can become an addiction for some. Namaste _/\_