doc benway

Congratulations Trunk - you did a great job moderating. Enjoy your freedom and the change.

I've been giving a lot of time lately to thought and practice in a Buddhist vein. There are very many inherent paradoxes and mysteries in this existence and it is utterly fascinating to see how the mind reconciles that with concepts, Buddhist and otherwise. This particular perspective you've shared above is quite beautiful. thanks for sharing that

Good luck with your mom, Barb. Sorry to hear what's going on - that's got to be painful. I've been listening lately to Sogyal Rinpoche's audio presentation of Tibetan Wisdom for Living and Dying. Beautiful stuff. Very much related to our discussion of Dzogchen. I really like how he emphasizes the value and importance of our simple presence when dealing with the dying (and living). I recently visited acquaintances in mourning for the death of their young daughter... I was quite apprehensive and emotional about visiting. I used the advice offered by Sogyal. I simply made myself available, rested to the best of my ability in basic conscious awareness. It was quite an experience and I'm very glad I went. As far as the book goes, "Reaching the definitive conclusion that all phenomena are inexpressible emptiness." It's very important to investigate what Tibetans mean when they use the word "emptiness." Emptiness is NOT empty. Rather, they tend to mean something more along the lines of formlessness, without border or distinction, undifferentiated, boundless, spacious and open, lacking boundary, and so forth. To call it empty would violate the inexpressible condition. I personally enjoy the American approach - Great Mystery. I had an insight a few years back out about it. It occurred to me that what we perceive as "real" and "solid" is nothing more than a consequence of our unique sensory apparatus which is specifically "tuned" to evoke our dream. What actually exists is a formless, boundless, space full of infinite potential - Great Mystery. Our sensory apparatus evokes from that our particular experience. And if that sensory equipment were to change, so would that experience. A rock is hard specifically because our skin is soft. Similarly, our sensory organs create the illusion of separation of us from other. The "space" which "separates" us from others and our surroundings is most certainly not "empty" - it's full of water vapor, gases, microorganisms, and who knows what else. And yet our senses of sight and touch, in particular, lend the perception of being surrounded by empty space as they are tuned to ignore what fills that space. But this whole perception of separateness is illusory. There is no self and other. Separate "me" from my atmosphere, my food source, solid ground, ... what happens? It doesn't work. The boundaries are imaginary. So what is, is not stuff and matter but rather an interaction between boundless spaciousness full of infinite potential and the clarity of presence or awareness (not perception) and vividness. Very hard to use words, hence "inexpressible emptiness." Talk to you soon.

I like your ocean reflection imagery. Demello tells a good story, I'll try to condense it. A homeless, destitute guy is laying on the side of the road. A Rolls stops and a gorgeous woman brings him into the car and takes him home. She has the attendant get him bathed, fed, clean clothes... wine... when he's tired he gets into a comfortable bed, for the first time in a very long time. A moment later the woman sneaks into the room, lifts the blankets and tells him to slide over... He slides over in anticipation and falls right into the river! WAKE UP! Sogyal Rinpoche mentions the moments of lucidity as being a glimpse, a tease, an initiation into the fraternity (sorority) of those who now have the opportunity to connect with what they know is already always there. What counts now is what we do with that. Can we let that truth inform our every action? Can you imagine committing to a life of doing absolutely nothing but allowing the sediment to settle and reveal pure clarity, always? I do try to make space in each and every moment where I am able to be mindful of that but it is a never ending process, not a one time deal... And each and every time we do that we are cutting through. I don't have the book handy right now... Talk to you soon.

I definitely think you're heading in the right direction with that interpretation. I think that there is a point at which some people have a moment of complete lucidity. I also think that it can manifest differently, based on that person's conditioning. The truth itself is always that same but the way we then interpret that, narrate it to ourselves, and others, and so on, colors it. I also think there are varying degrees of depth and breadth of insight, application, and the degree to which we honor it in our daily lives. And different traditions refer to it in different ways but the truth is beyond any specific expression of it. But at some point there does appear to be a before and after... before I was dreaming, now I am awake. And so there does seem to be an instantaneous shift. There certainly was for me, and it certainly has lingered, informed, and affected my life profoundly. An interesting question is - to what degree is that influenced by what we do? Whether that is meditation or any other activity or conceptualization. Then we can get into the discussion of whether meditation is an activity, what is the motivation associated with it, and all of that. As Krishnamurti says - truth is a pathless land... And as Fenner says - if I didn't do what I didn't need to do, I wouldn't know that I didn't need to do it in the first place. And yes, I agree with you about looking at this as a short path. I don't consider myself an authority in the Buddhist traditions, so everything I say, to some degree, should be suspect. I think most people using the terms "short path" are referring to a 'method' by which we get somewhere or do something or change something in time. But that can never work because what is there to change and who is there to change it? But certainly there is change in our relative experience and it is spontaneous. Nang jang (refinement of perception) is the other name given to the book and it is often referred to as a tool used to cut through (trek-cho). I think that this cutting through refers to making that incremental but profound shift of awareness, cutting through the dream, the mitote, and aiming at the space between thoughts - between what was and what will be; but nang jang equally destroys the concept of having to do anything or become something, or change anything to achieve that. It always already is. Great idea for a project, Barb.

When the witness is there, there is already separation. Krishnamurti put it succinctly - truth is a pathless land.

Speaking of impeccable allies, I have been blessed with a best friend who is a shaman and the most impeccable human being I've ever met. My practice has been headed in that direction for several years now.

Be careful. The idea that I need an impeccable Ally is also a belief... The very idea that impeccability is essential or even beneficial is a story (belief system) in and of itself. The idea that anything is needed, that there is a benefit to become something other than what already is... and all of that jazz. But I do agree with much of your narrative.

Wonderful program. The irony of trying to restore and preserve the great art of the traditions founded on the truth of impermanence is beautifully captured.

Further similarities between Dzogchen and Dao - Five elements - lots of obvious (and more subtle) overlap and common ground. Training methods - the qualities and skills we master in Daoist methods are very similar to those developed in Shamatha, Vipasanna, etc... Compare Song, Jing, and Ziran to Clarity, Stability, Vividness. Compare working with intent and the development and refinement of the energy body with the deity, body, breathing, color methodologies.

Thanks for your concern regarding my practice and progress. In the context of manitou's post, the "who I am" I am referring to in my reply is the mundane "me." The one who lives in the mitote, hurts other people, enters into relationships, has problems, desires, expectations, and all of that. I believe manitou's point is that, in order to approach the deeper question of "who (when) am I," we must first dig through our story, really turn the light of awareness on the darkness of ourselves and come to understand and eventually accept, and then let go of all of that. Once that work is done, we can open up from there. I've been doing this work for about a decade. Until that work is done, it will be repressed and will eventually come up later. PS I also believe that this work is an important part of living impeccably, living as a warrior in the Toltec tradition.

I've spent so much time and energy working on who I am, what I do, my relationships with those in my life, my relationship with myself. Such a big fucking beautiful mess. Years of scrutiny, adjustment, learning to take responsibility, then learning to forgive myself, then learning to forgive others. To be honest, I'm still working on those last two. When you can empty yourself of all that, and it's very quiet, then you can hear the truth. And it's so quiet and elusive but one day it just shouts so loudly that the echo is there forever. Painful work and so liberating. Great post Barb _/\_

It was sort of coming from a place of remembering direct experience of the world seeing through my eyes... then everything is the center and there is no point of reference, equally absent intent. No forward or back, no now and no then. Act from that perspective, always. What would that be like? Could that be the method? But what action and who to take it? Something like that.

Not confusing at all, actually. Just difficult to try fit into these little squiggly, dark lines and internal narration. Dao is the same - yin and yang dependently originated, no end ... no beginning ... collapsing into wu ji (emptiness) ... non-dual (tai ji) ... shake up all the words and concepts in a bag and sitting in silence, listen to the mystery unfold! If you're quiet enough, it will hear you.

I understand - forgive me for using the wrong symbol. In my view, your point is equally valid in Buddhism and Daoism in general. I could similarly say: "There is no origination of any kind in Dzogchen or Madhyamaka." I generally avoid Buddhist discussion because I'm not one to be too concerned with semantics and definitions. That sort of stuff is too distracting... If you focus on the finger, the differences between Dzogchen and Dao are obvious. If you gaze at the moon, the similarities are striking.

Would you prefer that I use the symbols 'd-e-p-e-n-d-e-n-t o-r-i-g-i-n-a-t-i-o-n' rather than 'm-u-t-u-a-l a-r-i-s-i-n-g?' Or do you mean to say that this concept is not a part of the teachings of Dzogchen?

I will respond to your question with another question. What is your justification for asking others to define Dao when your very first quotation reminds us that it cannot be defined?

Probably no need to worry about that.

What is..... simply is. Our concepts, symbols, and descriptions will never change that. The major spiritual traditions are all fingers pointiing to the same moon with their multicolored fingers. The similarities between Daoism and Dzogchen are striking and extend right down to the core concepts such as mutual arising and the complementarity of opposites. To me, that simply reinforces the sophistication and effectiveness of each approximation. Natural perfection is great book for anyone intetested in Dzogchen (and maybe even moreso for those who are not!)

Impeccable comes from pecare which means "to sin" which means to go against God. The Toltec view recognizes the non- duality of man and God and so defines impeccable as not going against oneself. It is easily misinterpreted and twisted for the purposes of exploitation but is very nicely explained in that tradition. PS Thanks to everyone - very nice contributions

Movement and stillness both have their places in meditative practices. In my tradition (Daoist) the majority of the stages I've been taught involve quiet and still sitting yet there is at least one technique that involves spontaneous movement, as well as other body positions. Most Buddhist methods are practiced without physical movement however walking meditation has an important place. When sitting or lying down during practice there are differing views on whether it is better to force the student to avoid all movement vs allowing them to make periodic, minor adjustmets to avoid discomfort and distractiin. To the OP - to get a specific answer you need to clarify what specific practice you are inquiring about.

Mindful breathing would be a good start. Any qigong or yoga you are comfortable with would help. I also think that spending time and offering your undivided attention to your dying relative is a valuable practice. Good luck in this difficult time.

Totally agree with above. Ayahuasca can be very unforgiving and should not be used without guidance any more than potent pharmaceuticals. Things that can help depression include - - addressing situational triggers (most often relationship issues for women and career issues for men) - mindfulness practices with guidance and support - spending time in nature - body related practices (taiji, qigong, yoga) - physical exercise - proper diet - restoration of normal diurnal cycle - meds (in cases associated with psychosis)

It might be helpful to first define meditation. Otherwise we are doing the apples and oranges thing.

For anyone interested in the Toltec paradigm, I'd recommend the writings of Don Miguel Ruiz. Very simple, practical, and powerful, only not as sexy as Castaneda. The way to begin to approach the Nagual is to decide to live the life of a warrior. The five initial weapons in your arsenal are: - be impeccable in word and deed - take nothing personally - let go of expectations - be totally committed - believe nothing and learn to listen Very powerful stuff if you live it.