doc benway

Well said, deci belle. I've struggled and puzzled with the role of formal practice in my life in this process. But as Peter Fenner so eloquently and succinctly puts it: "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do, we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!" The real battleground (opportunity) is our daily life and our relationships.

Since you choose not to, I'll answer the questions for you, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - 1. You made it up to fit your image of what you think Zhan Zhuang is without the benefit of instruction to show you otherwise 2. You believe your story and share it with others and don't consider that you may be misleading other people 3. You practice a little but not enough to realize the limitation of what you're recommending I have a name for this sort of thing, it's called "making shit up." It's irresponsible when you offer it to others with the intent that they accept you as an authority. Hopefully you won't cause too many people to injure their knees with your foolishness. What you are describing is not Zhan Zhuang. At best it's an isometric exercise for the quadriceps.

I've been hooked on this song lately. I like this version, too.... And speaking of musical kids...

You may not have practiced "formal" meditation but you have practiced real meditation. Nice to read your words as always.

You haven't answered any of my three questions: 1. Where did you learn this method? 2. Are you confident and experienced enough in this method to teach it in a public forum as Zhan Zhuang? 3. Is this your personal practice you are describing?

ChiDragon - where did you learn this? Do you really have enough experience and confidence in the method you describe above to teach it as Zhan Zhuang? Are you describing your own standing practice?

TTB's is a microcosm of life - There are a few real assholes, there are a few really cool people, there are lots of folks in the middle. The assholes say way more than I'd like, the cool people never say enough... I can see bits of myself in all of them and bits of all of them in me. Just like real life.

I would like to add that, in my opinion, Frantzis' discussion of "fire" methods in the first book does betray a lack of understanding or experience with the method. He claims to have studied such a method fairly extensively but his conclusion and criticism is erroneous. Anyone who has spent enough time in such a system would see his error. My suspicion is that for whatever time he practiced a "fire" method, he had not yet reached a certain level of experience/insight in his practice that he later reached through dissolving practice and he mistakenly attributes this to the method, rather than to his personal development. He's basically referring to the quality and presence of attention and intention in these practices. There is both a focusing of the attention and a letting go of the intention in both methods that he somehow didn't get in his fire practice. This is a minor criticism of an otherwise valuable English language resource for people interested in a Daoist system of practice who don't have access to a personal teacher. Background for my criticism: I have no connection with Winn or Frantzis. The method I've been given would probably be categorized as a "fire" school method by Frantzis. I read both volumes of the Water Method - excellent books and I'd highly recommend them. I'd already been practicing in the 崑崙仙蹤派 for about 8 years when I read them. I've never read anything by Winn. I have no opinion as to whether water or fire methods are superior, etc... In fact, I think it is a completely artificial distinction created by mind that is let go as the student advances.

_/\_ This is a symbol for praying hands or a loving bow.... Namaste It means that I genuinely enjoyed your post and your sincerity and enthusiasm and that which is divine in me is acknowledging and bowing to that which is divine in you. At the same time, I am chuckling at how seriously you are taking yourself and your delusion of authority, and how deeply you are rooted in the beliefs and story you have created through your reading and life experience. And I acknowledge that I am doing the same. Be well, oh happily misguided one! From one clueless soul to another.

Hey Apech, Really glad to have worked with you as a mod. Your efforts and contributions have been genuine and sincere, and I respect and appreciate that. At the end of the day, you can't ask anything else of a person. Be well my friend and see you around, you Bum!

They are proper questions, and neigong is the science to explore them, at least for me.

I've been lucky enough to have training in an authentic lineage. 崑崙仙蹤派 Neigong for a child is torture, for an adult it can be as well. The difference is that the adult chooses to be there, in every moment. That's why so few progress very far. What is a human if not ziran? What is Dao if not ziran? How can skillful cultivation be otherwise?

... Mine 2

I would like to nominate this for best post of 2012: Great stuff! _/\_

This is a philosophical translation by Hall and Ames. The translation is a little too intellectual for me but it has some nice (and dry) philosophical discussion and commentary. I'm much more into poetic translations and spiritual/cultivation aspects of the classic. I like this translation by Hu Xuezhi. Master Hu is a Daoist practitioner and looks at the text from the perspective of personal and human cultivation.

Neigong training is very intense but most give up fairly quickly.

Oh yes - had? It's a never ending process of refinement. First hurdle, get the posture right. Second hurdle, remember the movements. Third (and much more formidable) hurdle, figure out how to move from one posture to the next. And there are more but that's a good place to stop. Taiji is more about the transitions than the postures. One exercise that can help is walking/stepping drills. I was taught a few in the beginning: - basic forward walking - reverse stepping (repulse monkey) - kick/walk drill - fair maiden works the shuttle After a while I began making up my own. Take the challenging transitions and create a repetitive stepping pattern out of it and practice, practice, practice. The idea of sinking qi to dan tien is very helpful. I try to get people to develop a regular standing meditation practice. This helps to develop the idea of 'distinguish full from empty.' Skill in sinking and distinguishing full from empty is critical in transitions between postures. Also, make sure that you don't take short cuts, they invariably involve compromising posture or other principles and don't help you in the long run. And most importantly, have confidence in your teacher's guidance. Good luck!

Thanks for clarifying - I was just reacting to your earlier words about being in your head and anger. Sorry if I was presumptuous. Physically harsh training definitely has it's place, especially for young people. At some point in our lives, the physical punishment doesn't work any more as a tool for growth and development. That's when the value of neigong becomes more obvious.

If you're a brainy type and tend to anger, this is why you feel the qi rising to your head. It is your tendency to be in your head and thoughts. Simply standing still without the proper internal attitude will not be any different than what you do the rest of your day. You will stay in your head. Since you are physically still, the thoughts and energy in your head will be emphasized. No surprise your blood pressure rises. Daoist practices, as a rule, take you out of your head (thoughts) and bring your awareness into the body (and eventually beyond but by then beyond has lost it's meaning). A skillful standing practice could be a great way to balance your tendency to be in your head but it's important to do it properly. If you're new to standing meditation, here is one approach. I find this works well for most students. 1. 氣沉丹田 - qi chen dan tian - qi sinks to dan tian. This is the foundation. No need to worry about anything else but allowing the breath to gradually deepen and lengthen and allow your qi/awareness to sink to the lower dan tian. It's a good practice to link the sinking of the qi to dan tian to the exhalation in the beginning. Women need to be careful with this as it can bring too much focus to the pelvis. I've been told that some of the masters have women focus more on the middle dan tian, especially when they are menstruating. 2. Allow the body to move as needed to be comfortable and natural. Your posture will gradually improve with time and the body will find itself through adjustment. It's important to allow this adjustment to occur. Mostly the movement will be subtle and small, sometimes big and dramatic. No need to force it or look for it but don't fight it either. Adjust your feet and knees as needed for comfort. If the knees get sore, grip the ground very lightly with the toes. You may experience swaying, shudders, chills, yawning, belching, shaking, bending, jerking, spiraling, all kinds of stuff. It's not important, it's the body working through stuff, getting used to feeling itself and being the center of attention. 3. Don't fight the thoughts, don't try to force them out, notice when your attention is on the thoughts and lovingly remind yourself to attend to the breath and sink qi to dan tian. The mind will not be empty for long, watch the thoughts come and go, no need to add to them, no need to beat yourself up over their presence, they are the nature of your thinking mind. When you find yourself on the thought train, just return to the breath and sink qi to dan tian. I've come to thank them for doing so much to try and keep me safe and happy when they crop up. Then I return to my practice. Three qualities should be present when you stand - Song 鬆, Jing 靜, and Zi Ran 自然 They're generally mentioned when discussing Taiji forms but are important in standing. They mean relaxed, tranquil, and natural. Another aspect to qi cultivation that I find very helpful is to look at qi a bit differently. This is heresy to some and is a product of my own practice and experience. Most people use the analogy of qi being something they can gather, gain, lose, store, use, and so on. They speak of qi as if it were some quantity of stuff and the dan tian as a physical bank for holding the stuff. Whether or not this is accurate, I find it to bring a quality of mind that can be limiting or even counterproductive. I like to take the position that qi is always already there. It is what I am and what everything already is. It already fully pervades and fills me and yet I can never contain it. It moves freely through me like water through an eddy, I am that but do not keep or store it. With this frame of mind, I approach qi cultivation as a process of becoming progressively more sensitive to what I am and getting to know the fabric of my being at deeper levels through sensitivity and awareness. Certainly behaviors can affect the quality and intensity of "my qi" (clean air, pure water, and nutritious food have their benefits), but "having more qi" is about being more directly and thoroughly connected between awareness and manifestation rather than filling an imaginary organ with an imaginary substance. Again, just a different perspective you could find useful. In my experience, most people can easily stand for 15 - 20 minutes. Beyond that the physical body starts to complain. If you follow the method I outlined above, it is fairly easy for most students to achieve 30 - 60 minutes of standing practice in a matter of months. I think a consistent practice of modest, comfortable duration (daily or nearly so) is more important than infrequent, uncomfortable, marathon sessions. Over time you will work through a variety of different experiences and revelations. It is a very slow and painstaking process that requires patience and diligence. It can't be forced. Forcing yourself to stand for an hour when you're not ready will cause physical pain, tension, and ultimately be counterproductive. It needs to be a patient search for the mysterious and subtle... not a forced march. Sorry to go on like that but I haven't had a good rant in a while and sometimes I just like to hear myself talk (?watch myself write) about one of my favorite subjects. Good luck!

I recognize you! Nice to hear your musings....

Where is your intent when you stand? Do you practice qi sinks to dan tian?

As far as turning in taiji - absolutely. I was mainly referring to posture in terms of "extreme". The turning stars larger and physical in silk reeling and other taiji and bagua drills, but ultimately, it's the internal/intentional component we're after in that exercise - the pervasive intent, and that's the song we're talking about (in both arts). As for images - Here's the postural element I"m mostly referring to in bagua: The upper kua is emphasized and there's enormous work on core isometrics with a stable base. This narrows the lower kua and restricts it a bit On the other hand, taiji goes for song, jing, and zi ran and so the upper and lower are aligned, the kua is open and free, and so on: chenxiaowang.jpg

Tucking the tail under is really subtle, nothing much more than gently relaxing and elongating the lumbosacral region. If the low back is in too much of a lordotic alignment, the pelvis is tilted forward and the axis of the lumbosacral junction is more oblique, tucking simply brings the lumbosacral junction to a bit more horizontal axis. Agreed that it can feel restrictive, even to the breath, if done with too much abdominal or pelvic tension. Really helps loosen the kua, especially for pivoting, when it feels song. It helps with the step/pivot type footwork whether bagua or taiji. I think the waist turning in taiji and bagua has a different emphasis, particularly at the forms and beginning level. Once you get to application, they certainly converge but even there, taiji seems to have a bit more yield, neutralize, destroy while bagua works to create powerful vortices that deflect, redirect, and attack. Definitely feels different to me but, again, it all converges with application.

No, I can think of some differences. Disclaimer - I can only speak about my own styles, experience, and opinions. While I think my response is fairly generalizable, I'm sure there are legitimate differences of opinion. Most of the basic principles are shared - things like suspending the crown point, sinking the shoulders, loosening the kua, tucking the pelvis and chin - most of the time. One of the differences has to do with the alignment of the upper and lower (shoulders/hips, knees/elbows, hands/feet). In taiji postures during the form and standing meditation practice, there is generally vertical alignment of the upper and lower. In bagua training there is more extreme turning of the waist and trunk so this alignment cannot be maintained. Although the relative alignment will still be there when the waist turn relaxes back to neutral. Hand and wrist posture tends to be a bit more extreme in bagua styles as well - more elbow and wrist extension, more vertical position of the palm. The waist turning during standing and circle walking in bagua also tends to close or narrow the kua as compared to the roundness and openness in taiji forms. I think there are some differences in how the kua is used for offensive and defensive techniques in the two styles and attention to the kua when practicing each can teach us these differences, although eventually they sort of all contain each other once the practice becomes more martial and application oriented. I think that postural principles are very important in the beginning and eventually become a more flexible guideline that needs to adjust and adapt as the training becomes more free form and more martial. Good posture is always a valuable ingredient in generating power, maintaining flexibility, and moving with agility but sometimes posture needs to be sacrificed to respond to a threat or take advantage of an opportunity. Whenever sacrificed, however, there is increased vulnerability.

Two good exercises for developing song - 1. standing meditation 2. pushing hands