doc benway

You've got that right, too.

Well said, PLB. The OP titled the thread standing meditation. If I sit and watch television, I am not practicing sitting meditation. Similarly, if I stand and watch television or otherwise occupy my attention, this is not standing meditation, it is simple isometric exercise. There is nothing wrong with standing without meditation, provided the posture is correct. But meditation adds another dimension that enhances all other training...

ChiDragon - you are still practicing the technique, "making shit up"

ChiDragon - I was simply referring to this: I'm not going to present an instructional guide for basic posture here or try to analyze chenapalyer's stance based on what little information has been provided. Chenapalyer has adopted a method, hopefully from direct instruction. As posted by adept above, there are good resources online (and in books) but they are no substitute for personal instruction. @adept - PS - I really like that short video clip. The tree references are very helpful. I struggled for about a year to understand basic baguazhang standing posture. I finally understood it one day with the help of this tree

For ChiDragon - What you are describing makes sense, no need to judge it as good or bad, and it happens to everyone. Many other experiences of movement, internal and external, are likely to occur in your standing practice if you continue. Just like the thoughts in your head, allow the movement to come and go as it will, without aversion or attachment. I can't say whether or not your stance is off without seeing you in person but if you are new to standing I'm quite sure you will gradually refine and perfect your posture over time.

Well said, deci belle. I've struggled and puzzled with the role of formal practice in my life in this process. But as Peter Fenner so eloquently and succinctly puts it: "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do, we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!" The real battleground (opportunity) is our daily life and our relationships.

Since you choose not to, I'll answer the questions for you, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - 1. You made it up to fit your image of what you think Zhan Zhuang is without the benefit of instruction to show you otherwise 2. You believe your story and share it with others and don't consider that you may be misleading other people 3. You practice a little but not enough to realize the limitation of what you're recommending I have a name for this sort of thing, it's called "making shit up." It's irresponsible when you offer it to others with the intent that they accept you as an authority. Hopefully you won't cause too many people to injure their knees with your foolishness. What you are describing is not Zhan Zhuang. At best it's an isometric exercise for the quadriceps.

I've been hooked on this song lately. I like this version, too.... And speaking of musical kids...

You may not have practiced "formal" meditation but you have practiced real meditation. Nice to read your words as always.

You haven't answered any of my three questions: 1. Where did you learn this method? 2. Are you confident and experienced enough in this method to teach it in a public forum as Zhan Zhuang? 3. Is this your personal practice you are describing?

ChiDragon - where did you learn this? Do you really have enough experience and confidence in the method you describe above to teach it as Zhan Zhuang? Are you describing your own standing practice?

TTB's is a microcosm of life - There are a few real assholes, there are a few really cool people, there are lots of folks in the middle. The assholes say way more than I'd like, the cool people never say enough... I can see bits of myself in all of them and bits of all of them in me. Just like real life.

I would like to add that, in my opinion, Frantzis' discussion of "fire" methods in the first book does betray a lack of understanding or experience with the method. He claims to have studied such a method fairly extensively but his conclusion and criticism is erroneous. Anyone who has spent enough time in such a system would see his error. My suspicion is that for whatever time he practiced a "fire" method, he had not yet reached a certain level of experience/insight in his practice that he later reached through dissolving practice and he mistakenly attributes this to the method, rather than to his personal development. He's basically referring to the quality and presence of attention and intention in these practices. There is both a focusing of the attention and a letting go of the intention in both methods that he somehow didn't get in his fire practice. This is a minor criticism of an otherwise valuable English language resource for people interested in a Daoist system of practice who don't have access to a personal teacher. Background for my criticism: I have no connection with Winn or Frantzis. The method I've been given would probably be categorized as a "fire" school method by Frantzis. I read both volumes of the Water Method - excellent books and I'd highly recommend them. I'd already been practicing in the 崑崙仙蹤派 for about 8 years when I read them. I've never read anything by Winn. I have no opinion as to whether water or fire methods are superior, etc... In fact, I think it is a completely artificial distinction created by mind that is let go as the student advances.

_/\_ This is a symbol for praying hands or a loving bow.... Namaste It means that I genuinely enjoyed your post and your sincerity and enthusiasm and that which is divine in me is acknowledging and bowing to that which is divine in you. At the same time, I am chuckling at how seriously you are taking yourself and your delusion of authority, and how deeply you are rooted in the beliefs and story you have created through your reading and life experience. And I acknowledge that I am doing the same. Be well, oh happily misguided one! From one clueless soul to another.

Hey Apech, Really glad to have worked with you as a mod. Your efforts and contributions have been genuine and sincere, and I respect and appreciate that. At the end of the day, you can't ask anything else of a person. Be well my friend and see you around, you Bum!

They are proper questions, and neigong is the science to explore them, at least for me.

I've been lucky enough to have training in an authentic lineage. 崑崙仙蹤派 Neigong for a child is torture, for an adult it can be as well. The difference is that the adult chooses to be there, in every moment. That's why so few progress very far. What is a human if not ziran? What is Dao if not ziran? How can skillful cultivation be otherwise?

... Mine 2

I would like to nominate this for best post of 2012: Great stuff! _/\_

This is a philosophical translation by Hall and Ames. The translation is a little too intellectual for me but it has some nice (and dry) philosophical discussion and commentary. I'm much more into poetic translations and spiritual/cultivation aspects of the classic. I like this translation by Hu Xuezhi. Master Hu is a Daoist practitioner and looks at the text from the perspective of personal and human cultivation.

Neigong training is very intense but most give up fairly quickly.

Oh yes - had? It's a never ending process of refinement. First hurdle, get the posture right. Second hurdle, remember the movements. Third (and much more formidable) hurdle, figure out how to move from one posture to the next. And there are more but that's a good place to stop. Taiji is more about the transitions than the postures. One exercise that can help is walking/stepping drills. I was taught a few in the beginning: - basic forward walking - reverse stepping (repulse monkey) - kick/walk drill - fair maiden works the shuttle After a while I began making up my own. Take the challenging transitions and create a repetitive stepping pattern out of it and practice, practice, practice. The idea of sinking qi to dan tien is very helpful. I try to get people to develop a regular standing meditation practice. This helps to develop the idea of 'distinguish full from empty.' Skill in sinking and distinguishing full from empty is critical in transitions between postures. Also, make sure that you don't take short cuts, they invariably involve compromising posture or other principles and don't help you in the long run. And most importantly, have confidence in your teacher's guidance. Good luck!

Thanks for clarifying - I was just reacting to your earlier words about being in your head and anger. Sorry if I was presumptuous. Physically harsh training definitely has it's place, especially for young people. At some point in our lives, the physical punishment doesn't work any more as a tool for growth and development. That's when the value of neigong becomes more obvious.

If you're a brainy type and tend to anger, this is why you feel the qi rising to your head. It is your tendency to be in your head and thoughts. Simply standing still without the proper internal attitude will not be any different than what you do the rest of your day. You will stay in your head. Since you are physically still, the thoughts and energy in your head will be emphasized. No surprise your blood pressure rises. Daoist practices, as a rule, take you out of your head (thoughts) and bring your awareness into the body (and eventually beyond but by then beyond has lost it's meaning). A skillful standing practice could be a great way to balance your tendency to be in your head but it's important to do it properly. If you're new to standing meditation, here is one approach. I find this works well for most students. 1. 氣沉丹田 - qi chen dan tian - qi sinks to dan tian. This is the foundation. No need to worry about anything else but allowing the breath to gradually deepen and lengthen and allow your qi/awareness to sink to the lower dan tian. It's a good practice to link the sinking of the qi to dan tian to the exhalation in the beginning. Women need to be careful with this as it can bring too much focus to the pelvis. I've been told that some of the masters have women focus more on the middle dan tian, especially when they are menstruating. 2. Allow the body to move as needed to be comfortable and natural. Your posture will gradually improve with time and the body will find itself through adjustment. It's important to allow this adjustment to occur. Mostly the movement will be subtle and small, sometimes big and dramatic. No need to force it or look for it but don't fight it either. Adjust your feet and knees as needed for comfort. If the knees get sore, grip the ground very lightly with the toes. You may experience swaying, shudders, chills, yawning, belching, shaking, bending, jerking, spiraling, all kinds of stuff. It's not important, it's the body working through stuff, getting used to feeling itself and being the center of attention. 3. Don't fight the thoughts, don't try to force them out, notice when your attention is on the thoughts and lovingly remind yourself to attend to the breath and sink qi to dan tian. The mind will not be empty for long, watch the thoughts come and go, no need to add to them, no need to beat yourself up over their presence, they are the nature of your thinking mind. When you find yourself on the thought train, just return to the breath and sink qi to dan tian. I've come to thank them for doing so much to try and keep me safe and happy when they crop up. Then I return to my practice. Three qualities should be present when you stand - Song 鬆, Jing 靜, and Zi Ran 自然 They're generally mentioned when discussing Taiji forms but are important in standing. They mean relaxed, tranquil, and natural. Another aspect to qi cultivation that I find very helpful is to look at qi a bit differently. This is heresy to some and is a product of my own practice and experience. Most people use the analogy of qi being something they can gather, gain, lose, store, use, and so on. They speak of qi as if it were some quantity of stuff and the dan tian as a physical bank for holding the stuff. Whether or not this is accurate, I find it to bring a quality of mind that can be limiting or even counterproductive. I like to take the position that qi is always already there. It is what I am and what everything already is. It already fully pervades and fills me and yet I can never contain it. It moves freely through me like water through an eddy, I am that but do not keep or store it. With this frame of mind, I approach qi cultivation as a process of becoming progressively more sensitive to what I am and getting to know the fabric of my being at deeper levels through sensitivity and awareness. Certainly behaviors can affect the quality and intensity of "my qi" (clean air, pure water, and nutritious food have their benefits), but "having more qi" is about being more directly and thoroughly connected between awareness and manifestation rather than filling an imaginary organ with an imaginary substance. Again, just a different perspective you could find useful. In my experience, most people can easily stand for 15 - 20 minutes. Beyond that the physical body starts to complain. If you follow the method I outlined above, it is fairly easy for most students to achieve 30 - 60 minutes of standing practice in a matter of months. I think a consistent practice of modest, comfortable duration (daily or nearly so) is more important than infrequent, uncomfortable, marathon sessions. Over time you will work through a variety of different experiences and revelations. It is a very slow and painstaking process that requires patience and diligence. It can't be forced. Forcing yourself to stand for an hour when you're not ready will cause physical pain, tension, and ultimately be counterproductive. It needs to be a patient search for the mysterious and subtle... not a forced march. Sorry to go on like that but I haven't had a good rant in a while and sometimes I just like to hear myself talk (?watch myself write) about one of my favorite subjects. Good luck!

I recognize you! Nice to hear your musings....