doc benway

Where is your intent when you stand? Do you practice qi sinks to dan tian?

As far as turning in taiji - absolutely. I was mainly referring to posture in terms of "extreme". The turning stars larger and physical in silk reeling and other taiji and bagua drills, but ultimately, it's the internal/intentional component we're after in that exercise - the pervasive intent, and that's the song we're talking about (in both arts). As for images - Here's the postural element I"m mostly referring to in bagua: The upper kua is emphasized and there's enormous work on core isometrics with a stable base. This narrows the lower kua and restricts it a bit On the other hand, taiji goes for song, jing, and zi ran and so the upper and lower are aligned, the kua is open and free, and so on: chenxiaowang.jpg

Tucking the tail under is really subtle, nothing much more than gently relaxing and elongating the lumbosacral region. If the low back is in too much of a lordotic alignment, the pelvis is tilted forward and the axis of the lumbosacral junction is more oblique, tucking simply brings the lumbosacral junction to a bit more horizontal axis. Agreed that it can feel restrictive, even to the breath, if done with too much abdominal or pelvic tension. Really helps loosen the kua, especially for pivoting, when it feels song. It helps with the step/pivot type footwork whether bagua or taiji. I think the waist turning in taiji and bagua has a different emphasis, particularly at the forms and beginning level. Once you get to application, they certainly converge but even there, taiji seems to have a bit more yield, neutralize, destroy while bagua works to create powerful vortices that deflect, redirect, and attack. Definitely feels different to me but, again, it all converges with application.

No, I can think of some differences. Disclaimer - I can only speak about my own styles, experience, and opinions. While I think my response is fairly generalizable, I'm sure there are legitimate differences of opinion. Most of the basic principles are shared - things like suspending the crown point, sinking the shoulders, loosening the kua, tucking the pelvis and chin - most of the time. One of the differences has to do with the alignment of the upper and lower (shoulders/hips, knees/elbows, hands/feet). In taiji postures during the form and standing meditation practice, there is generally vertical alignment of the upper and lower. In bagua training there is more extreme turning of the waist and trunk so this alignment cannot be maintained. Although the relative alignment will still be there when the waist turn relaxes back to neutral. Hand and wrist posture tends to be a bit more extreme in bagua styles as well - more elbow and wrist extension, more vertical position of the palm. The waist turning during standing and circle walking in bagua also tends to close or narrow the kua as compared to the roundness and openness in taiji forms. I think there are some differences in how the kua is used for offensive and defensive techniques in the two styles and attention to the kua when practicing each can teach us these differences, although eventually they sort of all contain each other once the practice becomes more martial and application oriented. I think that postural principles are very important in the beginning and eventually become a more flexible guideline that needs to adjust and adapt as the training becomes more free form and more martial. Good posture is always a valuable ingredient in generating power, maintaining flexibility, and moving with agility but sometimes posture needs to be sacrificed to respond to a threat or take advantage of an opportunity. Whenever sacrificed, however, there is increased vulnerability.

Two good exercises for developing song - 1. standing meditation 2. pushing hands

Nice post. I think this is a natural part of the progression. Something leads me to the spiritual quest. I'm intrigued by words, ideas, practices. They help to shake me up enough to loosen the delusion. At some point the words just don't mean anything anymore - isn't that sort of the point? The words are just another story, a creation of thought, an object of consciousness, no matter how accurate or evocative. Eventually they just burn out when subjected to the light of awareness.

I think standing meditation is one of the greatest practices the Chinese internal arts has to offer and one of the most important for developing skill in Xingyi, Taiji, and Bagua. I think it is presumptuous and misleading for me to tell you what it does for anyone but myself. For me, it has helped to develop and deepen the connection between awareness and physical manifestation. Whether you like to use Daoist or Hindu terminology and paradigms doesn't really matter - it opens you up to yourself. It enhances sensitivity to yourself which then extends to others as well as to the environment. It's a great foundation for shamanic practices. It helps to correct posture. It has a healing effect on joint and musculoskeletal problems. It can develop profound strength and also flexibility. It is extremely useful in achieving "song." The best thing I can say is practice it for 6 weeks before you decide whether it's worth your time or not. One warning - IMO, people begin more physically challenging postures way too early in their progress. This adds physical tension which detracts from the internal development. I recommend that people new to the practice do basic posture for months, at least. Eventually, the hands will naturally begin to raise of their own accord. This is when it's time to start adopting the more complex and physically challenging postures like hug the tree and so on. As with anything, YMMV! Enjoy

When I first started studying taijiquan, I read The Essence of Tai Chi. I really liked his common sense approach to explaining some of the concepts. Other than that I have no experience with Master Liao's system.

Not sure I agree with this. I bring the same quality of song to my Taiji, Bagua, and XIngyi practice. Certainly Taiji forms are mostly practiced more slowly (perhaps that is what you're referring to when you mention the word "practice") but, for me, the same basic quality of song is important in all of these internal arts when it comes to martial application and training. Over time, the internal arts converge and are just different emphasis on the same basic theme. I think there is more variability in the individual than in the style or system. Just my opinion, of course. Be careful with how you use the word "song." If I am 100% song, I am NOT limp. Song does not mean flaccid. More song does not mean softer. Song is much more complex than that. It is flexible and relaxed without losing the basic structure and posture. It is responsive and supple but able to continuously adjust and react. Think zhan, nian, lian, sui, bu diu, bu ding.

Here's another perspective on meditation that I find is worthwhile - This Light in Oneself: True Meditation by Jiddu Krishnamurti it may be accessible at your library. It is not a method per se as JK eschewed all methods. But it is sort of a method of transcending methods. Another good resource is Peter Fenner. His material is credible, simple, accessible, and effective. A friend loaned me his Radiant Mind CD set and I found it very well presented. His website is fairly commercial but has good info - www.radiantmind.net.

I practice a Qi Gong set called Shiba Luohangong (18 Arhat Qigong) It can be practiced either with relaxation and neigong (氣沉丹田) or with dynamic tension and packing the Qi forcefully into the dan tian. I would NOT recommend this type of dynamic tension approach to internal work without experienced guidance because it can be hazardous. It does have value, however, especially for those who train in external styles.

Hmmm, so how do you do the mud step? At some point in the process, the weight is on the stable leg as the other foot slides forward, hovering over the ground. Just before the weight is transferred, the weight must be on the back leg, no? What style do you practice? Best regards,

Very glad to hear that! I reached an erroneous conclusion based on some of your posts... Please forgive me. Best regards,

Good questions - I don't have many answers. I do think that significant growth can come out of insight. Our thought process generally occurs within the spectrum of what we already know or what we can reason or infer. Memory, knowledge, and projection of that knowledge. Insight and revelation offer something new, or at least it often seems that way. Krishnamurti's writings get into this very deeply - well worth investigating.

The first thing I was taught was walking and stepping - mud step, kou bu, and ba bu. Drilling that over and over, up and back across the school, always paying attention to proper posture. I worked on that for a few months before learning anything else.

Yes and no. 'Yes' answer - A few books have communicated things to me on a level beyond the words and concepts. And more than just subtext and context. It was almost as if I was being given something more than met the eye. The most profound example was the book To Be Human by Jiddu Krishnamurti. Never participated in a webcast so can't comment there. 'No' answer - The most meaningful transmission occurs through human contact. It occurs on multiple levels of interaction, some of which are beyond conscious awareness. There are clearly levels of subliminal communication and neurologic mirroring going on in all relationship. Whether this occurs more with "masters" I think is debatable, but there are things that go on in person that do not occur through books or webcasts, IMO. Those subtle factors can make all the difference.

Insights and revelations are thoughts, ideas, images but can also be experiences at a non-verbal, non-intellectual level. It's just that they tend to occur de novo, rather than as a rational progression of the thinking mind. Ever try to think of something elusive? The more you try, the more it escapes you? And then when your mind is distracted from the effort, suddenly it's there... That's sort of what I was suggesting.

Lot's of "right" answers to these good questions. Here are some thoughts - First and foremost - keep applying the practice and see for yourself. See what comes up. See how effective you are at remaining mindful through your waking life. All the answers will grow out of your practice with time and patience. Other thoughts - mindfulness is not just about doing away with negative feelings. If you're not careful, this sort of practice can suppress those feelings and they will linger and grow stronger with time in the sub-conscious and have negative consequences. Being mindful also means to stay with the negative feelings, not necessarily dwelling on the thoughts or adding to them, but allowing yourself to fully experience what is there while it is there. And allowing it to pass in it's time. It's also good to practice mindfulness with positive feelings and good experiences. You can practice for a very long time and I'm pretty sure you won't achieve a state of continuous thoughtlessness. Thoughts are a normal part of the human condition. We need and benefit from our gift of thought. We also suffer from it's self-absorption. The practice is more one of non-attachment to the thoughts rather than erasure or suppression. With respect to insights and revelations, you will most likely find that those are NOT the product of the thinking mind. Insights and revelations are "quantum" phenomena (I hate that word used outside of the scientific arena but it does capture the spirit of what I'm trying to say here) that occur to the tranquil mind when it is not burdened with ruminating over territory that is already known. These are the AHA experiences and usually occur once you stop focusing on a problem and allow the mind to let go.

This style of stepping is pretty common in a variety of Bagua systems. It's very traditional, definitely not a Wushu modification. It's called mud-stepping. Lot's of reasons to practice it - balance, timing, integration with standing practice, many more. Here's a pretty good link discussing it: http://pakuachangjou...Walk.php?page=5 I used it exclusively for the first few years I practiced the circle. Now I often just walk naturally but periodically return to the mud step for the training benefits. A lot of the martial applications in bagua involve sweeps, powerful waist turns, kicks, changes of direction - these all benefit greatly from the mud stepping practice. One the other hand, if you don't like it there is still plenty of value to practicing without it - to each their own. The main thing that bothers me about this vid (and many others, to be honest) is that he doesn't really seem to make much effort to dynamically turn the waist in toward the center with each step. That is a very valuable skill to be mastered from walking the circle and really is a beautiful core stretching/strengthening aspect of Bagua that leads to very powerful waist turning. Lot's of videos seem to lack this. Not sure why... maybe just different emphasis in different schools, but I think this is one of the fundamental benefits of circle walking. Maybe folks are just hiding it... ...And maybe I just don't know what the f.... I'm talking about! Edit - here's a nice image of turning in toward the center while walking the circle. This is how the walking "should" look and is also a very effective standing posture. I used quotes for should because I'm not trying to say it's the only way but the benefits are remarkable. Try it and see! Another which also shows lifting the leg with palm change which I think is a great training method. Most of the time I extend my knee in a slow kick with the palm change as opposed to keeping the knee flexed as shown below - really works the hip flexors and quads, not to mention the balance.

I haven't read through the entire text and I don't know anything about the author. I'm a little put off by the fact that he doesn't mention the breath in his introduction. And barely mentions it in the first few exercises. This makes the entire work a bit suspect for me. Qi is an elusive concept and can be described and defined in many ways. One of those is breathing or breath. When describing the practice and theory of Qi Gong, I think it is critical to focus the student on the breath and that specific aspect of Qi, especially in a manual intended to provide practical instruction. This is because the practice of Qi Gong begins with attention to the breath and relatively simple and natural body movement. Over time, the more subtle and controversial aspects of Qi become obvious to the practitioner in a way that theory can never describe. This is the foundation of Daoist practices. As that occurs, the practice naturally matures into more of the Nei Gong aspects. I'm admittedly biased by my own teacher's methods of instruction but I think the author is packing too much theory and extraneous material into the manual which is more a distraction than a help to the beginning student interested in the practice of Daoist methods. Basic and accurate instruction in the method will do much more for you in the long run than a few pages of theory. I don't mean to be too harsh but that tends to be my nature - apologies if I offend anyone associated with the author or methods described. Another thing I don't like is that the author makes some misleading statements in the introduction: "this knowledge has been held in secrecy in China and the East - reserved for the aristocracy, monks, doctors, martial artists and the most privileged." Not accurate. Certainly some methods were secretive and others quite widespread. Qigong was a method that the average peasant could practice for free to help maintain health. The vast majority of currently practiced Qigong has been developed in the past few decades, following the cultural revolution, when there's been an explosion of opportunists trying to sell their "secret methods." "there is no knowledge or understanding of the human Energy System in the West, there is no tradition or history - for a variety of questionable reasons." Ridiculous! There are many traditions throughout indigenous American and European cultures that work with human and environmental energies, quite effectively. Even to deny the acknowledgement of energetics in current Western health care methods is completely inaccurate. It would be true to say none are exactly like the systems developed in the East but the Chinese do not have an exclusive claim on the understanding and manipulation of energy. Just about every indigenous culture has insight into this not to mention modern scientific methods. Two books I'd recommend on the subject are: The Way of Energy by Lam Kam Chuen Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body by Bruce Frantzis I've never practiced any methods in the books because I've never found anything that made me want to divert time from what my teacher gave me to practice. I have read through those two books and think they offer accurate and clearly communicated information. That said, I think that credible, personal instruction is infinitely more effective than any book or video. You may be able to find a teacher near you or post or PM members here that can give you some guidance.

Thanks for the reply MPG. I genuinely feel for your suffering. I doubt anything I say is of much value - so many words.... but sometimes I can't help myself! It really can be beautiful to be alive. I think the greatest supernatural power that exists is the power to see our daily lives with fresh eyes every moment and to appreciate the utter magnificence and infinite potential that surrounds us at all times. And yes, I have come to see my Daoist practices as an aid to cultivating that power. Even things like pain, illness, and loss provide opportunities for learning and growth and are critical to our development. They are unpleasant experiences but real change is always difficult, especially the ultimate experience of change - death. Death is the elegant solution to the pain of living, it allows us to go on for a while then let it all go, and then come again - fresh and clean and completely ready for another round. And each round is so incredibly unique and different. And we don't have to be burdened with the previous rounds. So much better than living forever! In fact, after 8 years of practicing Daoist meditation, it's my opinion that this is basically the fundamental nature of the method. To open our eyes (and all other senses, including some that aren't too familiar without specialized training) to what is always already here inside and around us. It's a way of enhancing our sensitivity and awareness to what is. People take many of the writings way too literally. It's due to a lack of direct instruction/transmission, a lack of understanding of the language and conventions of documentation, and the human desire to always want to "become" something that one is not. This to me is what seems to be the major stumbling block between man and Dao, the antithesis to Wu Wei - the need to become what one is not. Krishnamurti discusses this beautifully. It's all already here. No need to yearn after something other. We just need to get out of our own way. And then again, I just might be totally misguided and utterly wrong! It certainly wouldn't be the first time and likely won't be the last. Best wishes my friend.

Is it possible that the "accomplishment" that can be achieved through cultivation is not to make the madness stop but to no longer be a slave to that desire? Who are "you" that is separate that can stop? If there is that degree of desperation for it to stop, there is imbalance. Cultivation is about restoring balance.

Someone needs to trademark Mo Pai like was done with Kunlun...

Nope, and I suspect we'll be seeing "mo" drama as folks start to talk about these books... yawn.

I will agree with Marbles here. Evolution is nothing more than the change in inherited characteristics of biological populations in response to environmental change. It does not imply better or worse, higher or lower. It simply applies more or less adaptable, more or less well suited to current circumstances. It is an elegant characteristic of our ever changing existence. A consequence of the fundamental connection between life forms and the environment with which they are inseparable. It is evidence of the oneness of being and the intelligence of biologic-ecologic systems. There is no reason to bring judgements into the equation like better or worse, good and bad, preferable and not, and so on. We exist at a conscious level where we accept an organizational level of "human" consisting of sub-strata of organ systems, organs, organelles, cells, etc... There certainly is organization and hierarchy in that experience. My feeling that there is a similar level of organization at other levels of existence - such as that of trees, forests; humidity, streams, rivers, and oceans; populations of living things, eco-systems, planets, galaxies, and so on. It's just so foreign from what we experience as consciousness and awareness that it eludes us (well, most of us). I wonder if beginning and outcome even make sense. Awareness, being-ness is always in the middle. Existing "now" yet looking forward to something the mind projects as outcome and looking back as the mind interacts with knowledge stored as memory, projecting an idea of beginning. Similarly in space. I'm always "here" surrounded in a more or less spherical fashion by everything that's out there... Time and space are both consequences of my uniquely tuned sensory apparatus and the bag of skin that deludes me into feeling separate. They do not necessarily have any independent existence.