doc benway

This is a bit off the Baguazhang theme but I think it's worth clarifying the meaning of Song in the internal martial arts. Chi Dragon - It appears that you have not had direct instruction in Song based on your comments. Song is a very fundamental skill that develops with proper Taijiquan instruction. It is also present in Xingyiquan and Baguazhang (and external arts) but less central to those arts. There is much more to Song in the martial arts than the simple "linguistic meaning" of the word. Song in martial arts does not mean to simply relax the muscles. If the muscles are totally relaxed, they are flaccid and one would completely collapse. Relaxation always alternates with contraction, one cannot occur without the other - they are inextricably related - Yin and Yang. If a muscle only contracts, this is called tetany and is extremely painful and disabling. It occurs in certain diseases such as toxicity from Tetanus. If a muscle only relaxes, it is equivalent to paralysis and is total dysfunctional. Song relates to a skillful balance between relaxation and contraction of the muscles, a balance of Yin and Yang. Song is to maintain proper posture and structure with a minimal expenditure of energy. All unnecessary tension is let go. It takes a great deal of practice for the body to learn what can be let go and what must remain, and this is changing constantly with time and circumstances. Included in this relaxed structure is sensitivity and responsiveness (Ting Jin) which is often described as the quality of a ball floating on water when pushing against a Taiji player. Song allows for one to develop the quality of steel wrapped in cotton - the steel is the Fa Jin and the cotton is Song (obviously it's not quite that simple but it's not too far off). Simply relaxing the muscles is easy, finding the correct balance from moment to moment whether still or moving, connected to a partner or practicing the forms, of muscle contraction and relaxation - that is the challenge of developing skill in Song. Taiji form practice is said to be proper when observing three qualities - Song (relaxed), Jing (tranquil), and Zi Ran (natural). The nature of martial application in Taijiquan is based on continuous physical contact with the opponent and is captured in the phrase - Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding. This translates to Touch, Stick, Connect, Follow, Don't Separate or Go Against. To achieve this requires a high degree of skill in Song and Ting Jin (sensitivity) among other things. Song gradually develops through dedicated practice of standing (Zhan Zhuang), form, and pushing hands (Tui Shou) drills, including Da Lu (big rollback or big circle), Xiao Lu (small rollback or small circle, sometimes called Peng Lu Ji An), as well as freestyle pushing and many other drills. Baguazhang does not emphasize Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding but there is, nevertheless, a role of Song in Bagua (and Xingyi) as is currently being discussed. Sorry for the side bar but I think it's important for us to understand the meaning of what is being discussed.

I think you had it right the first time. I'm pretty sure the character you are referring to is 鬆, the simplified version is 松. It is spelled SONG in Pinyin and is pronounced using the first tone. I like how Song is mostly mentioned in terms of shoulders and hips. It is critically important to develop Song in those areas. I would respectfully add that Song is also an important quality throughout the waist and spine. In fact, I think there are aspects of Song throughout the body at the same time as aspects of Jin. It's not either/or - it's both, varying in degree depending on the circumstances at any given moment. Just my personal experience.

I've never read anything about Bagua. From my practice, I think that it develops song in multiple ways. If you practice zhan zhuang and circle walking, song naturally develops. It develops in my structure and posture. And it also develops in my motion. Just like there is a resilience in my posture - a yielding combined with a maintenance of structure to applied pressure. There is a similar resilience in the cadence, tempo, rhythm and pattern of the footwork, waist turning, and so on, that reacts to interaction with the opponent. Interesting that it's not discussed in the songs. No question it is fundamental in all of the internal arts.

Oops - Ed simply meant 'edited to add...'

Totally agree with your points. I was referring to my observation that the answer usually doesn't help unless we do the work for ourselves and come to insight directly. The answers are dead, it's the questions and the investigation that are valuable.

Shhh...You're not supposed to give it away so easily! Paradox is a consequence of our thought process and conventions. Reality has no problem with paradox, only people do...

I think belief is different than trust or confidence. It is accepting an explanation for something unknown. It is the absence of trust or confidence. It's dependence. Just semantics really, when you talk about the words. But it is instructive to look at what our "beliefs" are and to see our relationship to them. Yes, good point that faith is closely related to sincerity and honesty. In terms of paradox being at the heart of reality. It has to do with self-examination. You come to a point where the very "me" is a paradox. That's really the beginning and end of the path. But you've got to do the work for yourself, otherwise it's just words.

Be careful how you use belief and faith. I like how Alan Watts contrasts the two - ""...because I believe that there is a strong distinction between faith on the one hand and belief on the other. That belief is as a matter of fact quite contrary to faith, because belief is really wishing, it's from the Anglo-Saxon root Leaf/ve (?) = to wish, and belief stated say in the creed, is a fervant hope that the universe will turn out to be thus and so, and in this sense therefor belief precludes the possibility of faith, because faith is openness to truth to reality - whatever it may turn out to be."

No such thing as a paradox or contradiction then? I would be quite comfortable saying that our very existence and reality itself are paradoxical... Q - Is light a wave or a particle? A - It depends on how you look at it... Ed - My sig expresses a fundamental paradox of existence

No need to apologize to anyone. The question that puzzles me is how (or why) do we believe in something if we have no idea at all what it is? (well, in fact, I do understand it - we believe exactly because we have no idea of what it is. The belief gives us security in the absence of knowledge). In other words, do you know what God is? In her entirety? If so, there is no need to believe because you already know. If not, then what the hell does it mean to say "I believe in God?"

How to know the difference? Can they be one and the same? Can it change?

Awareness must be the starting point. If you aren't aware, you are a slave to your conditioning. If you pay attention, eventually you will begin to see patterns. I agree that understanding the "why" may or may not be helpful. But either way, it's very helpful to recognize the patterns. Most of what we do is already done before we're aware of it. Just becoming aware gives us the opportunity to choose. In terms of the other person who claims to have the power of invisibility, it's most instructive to look at why their choice to make such a claim bothers you... We are surrounded and consumed by the stories that we create and those around us create. See if you can find a story that you tell yourself or have come to accept that is not completely true. That's a good place to start when thinking about why someone else claims a power you don't accept... In terms of the question about staying on a path or not - Excellent question! - I think the best I can do is to pay attention to whether the path is creating more truth, clarity, and balance in my life. Does it seem to be bringing me closer to reality or clouding my vision? Does it help me to understand my values and live them? Then I make the best choice possible. It's all such a moving target - but that's the challenge. That's what makes it interesting and "worth the candle."

The cool thing is that when you open your heart and really feel the connection to the other, that degree of awareness makes one less vulnerable, not more. When we all share the same heart, we know that the heart is boundless, so when you are gone or I am gone, we are still here, just in a different way. It's not about being unaffected or independent. It's more about awareness. Observing one's reaction and just being with it, good and bad. Weathering the pain and tempering the bliss, knowing that they're opposite sides of the same coin. And looking at those very judgements of good and bad. So it's a journey without the expectation of perfection or complete distance, it's more one of acceptance or non-judgement. I think it dovetails very nicely with Daoist ideas of morality and virtue. The emotions still come and go but the key is to not be too attached, not to convince oneself that happiness is tied to those transient emotions and the story I tell myself. After all, what am "I" but that very story itself? Exactly - the reaction is in YOU, not the outside world. Someone with a different set of expectations could react very differently under identical circumstances. When someone does something that "makes" me feel a certain way, the drill is to look at why I feel that way - where does the reaction come from, does it work for me, if I had a choice would I choose that reaction, do I choose to give the power to someone else to "make" me feel a certain way, are they correct in what they are saying and, if so, why should there be a negative feeling from reality?? And on and on, it's an absolutely fascinating investigation. Over time, I can see how many of my knee-jerk reactions to things develop - this comes from my grandma, that comes from my father, the other comes from a social convention, that came from my teacher, and so on. It's certainly not an all or nothing deal, just a path to try and stay on if it feels right to you. The more I stay on it, the less I struggle with what goes on outside... and inside... But it it's not easy. It takes enormous energy. But it's worth it, for me.

To get back to the OP - approval seeking is a wonderful topic. We are conditioned to be dependent on the approval of others from early childhood. It starts with parents, then teachers, boy/girlfriends, friends, spouses, bosses,... it's endemic to socialization. The primary fallacy underlying all of this is the idea that my happiness is dependent on or can be affected by anyone other than me. If you look into this deeply over time, it can be discovered that my happiness rests totally within me. One can come up with all sorts of scenarios that superficially seem to challenge that point of view. But at the end of the day, if I am aware of my own patterns of emotional and psychological reaction, I get to choose whether or not I permit others' actions and words to affect my state of mind. Thanks for posting on this everyone, I enjoy exploring this topic.

Very good points. I reread the entire Castaneda oeuvre about 3 or 4 years ago and really got a lot out of it. It's also helpful to read some of the other Toltec authors to get a sense of Carlos' point of departure. To be clear, I do not discount the possibility of magic. In fact, I think my very awareness/existence is more magical than anything my measly mind could dream up. It's just too close and familiar to be meaningful unless we make the effort to thoroughly investigate it (remember the admonition "to turn the light back on itself?"- mundane yet profound). On the other hand, rather than believe in something that may be beyond my direct experience, I currently choose to focus on what I can experience directly. That is, I intend to put one foot in front of the other and continue to train and investigate in order to see if I can discover whatever there is that may transcend what I currently know and experience. If the magic is out there, beyond me, I intend to try and find it rather than simply believe something I read or am told. I think it will be a better use of my time to focus on the day to day training. This is something I got from my teacher - very much a pragmatist. It's already paid off, in fact - big time. The methods work and you don't even have to believe, just practice... The reason I tend to emphasize the more mundane and approachable side of the arts is that I find that the majority of students will get distracted and waste way too much time looking for magic rather than developing the real magic through hard work.

More bullshit. ChiDragon - you know nothing about Taijiquan. Stick to your Qigong. Shanlung - wise decision and I'm very sorry to hear about your friend.

My pleasure. There are a few reasons why it's tough to learn about Fajin from videos - one is that you really can't tell what it is from watching, you need to feel to understand. Another is that you generally see a master demonstrating with his/her students. In this situation there is a teacher/student dynamic that exists where the student is (consciously or not) reacting with certain expectations that allow the master to take advantage - eg the game is rigged. A third is that the proper application of real Fajin can really cause some damage so most demos are just light pushing and pulling without use of the real explosive force. Here is a video I just came across where some aspects of what Fajin is and how it is applied in Taijiquan are demonstrated nicely. This is a Chen style Grandmaster. Watch it all if you want but I'd like to emphasize a few things. At ~ 6:55 he starts to demonstrate martial applications of Peng Lu Ji and An - four basic Taijiquan techniques. Look what he does at 7:43 - he's holding back but implies the short, explosive force using An that is effective when you have your opponent properly lined up to take full advantage. Next look at him demonstrating Fajin using Kao when your opponent neutralizes your An with Lu, this is at 8:04. Next watch Fajin expressed through Lu at 8:19 and again at 8:25, and finally through Kao after the Lu at 8:27. Look at the Fajin at 8:57! This is a variation of Cai (plucking). As he continues to demonstrate you see how everything he does is a combination of proper stance, timing, breathing, strategy - he is controlling his opponent then using principles of physics including leverage and power generation (Fajin) to defeat him. This is referred to as 一搖二晃三擊 Yi Yao Er Huang San Ji - first shake, second uproot, third attack. Notice that this is not some magical, imaginary, force field crap that you'll see in so many other videos. This is the real deal. No magic, just proper application of physics and anatomy. Oh, and decades of practice with proper instruction... That dedication and commitment as well as the absolute beauty and ingenuity of the method - THAT is the magic.

Fa is to send out or issue forth something 發 Jin is 'energy' and has the connotation of strength or force 勁 In Chinese martial arts, FaJin is used to imply a very explosive, penetrating type of force that is developed over a very short distance. Some teachers call Fajin the short force to distinguish it from the more commonly encountered strikes that are thrown from a distance (typical punching and kicking). Sometimes Fajin is referred to as 'coordination' force because rather than generate power over a distance by sending your fist, palm, or foot out like a projectile; you use Fajin when already in contact with the opponent so the power needs to be generated in a different way. WIth Fajin, the striking part of your body doesn't travel like the projectile, only the force does. It is generated through coordinating breath, posture, timing, and the entire body. It's important to recognize that those same things are used in generating the long force as well but it's done in a different way. Impossible for me to capture in words but I could show you quite easily in person. In Xingyiquan it's used a bit differently. You're not always in direct contact so you learn to apply the Fajin at the moment of impact when striking. In Baguazhang, there's a bit of both actually. Fajin can also be used in other types of attacks than striking - pulling, plucking, throwing, Qinna, etc... If you study the fundamental martial method of Taijiquan you will come across the the saying - Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding 沾黏連隨不丟頂 This translates something like Touch Stick Connect Follow Don't Resist or Separate. There are other important principles but this one tells us that, in Taijiquan, once we enter into a conflict we stay connected. We yield, neutralize, and counter-attack while touching our opponent the entire time. We are told to never break the contact, never separate, because to separate means to lose control - to give the opponent and opportunity to strike. Therefore, you can't cock your fist back to punch - that would break away and violate the principles. So you learn how to attack from a position of already touching. It's not difficult to learn the basic technique. It's VERY difficult to master. When you watch the video I commented on, you see the master pushing, pulling, and shoving. He is extending his elbows quite a bit when he pushes. This is not what Fajin looks like so much. Perhaps there is some of the short force hidden in there but true Fajin looks different. You will see the practitioner's arms, leg, or body move very little (according to my teacher, less than a few inches), and you will see (or much better - FEEL) an extremely violent force which has a penetrating quality. It feels like it goes right into you - into the spine or organs. When you see someone issuing the short force, you will generally see much more of a sinking of the master and her arms, leg, shoulder, whatever she's using to attack looks like it expands out from the center or rotating (there are different applications of Fajin) - very short but violent movement. At high levels, the physical movement is so short as to be nearly invisible but the intent is there. This video shows the master controlling the dummy and tossing him around by virtue of his spirit and also his mastery of balance, coordination, and application of force but he's using mostly the long force, nothing there really looks like true Fajin to me. And that's just my opinion based on looking at a video. I could be totally wrong - it wouldn't be the first time!

For as long as you want bliss really badly, it will elude you. Sorry I think your best bet is to begin to cultivate awareness of everything inside as well as outside. It's a good place to start.

I see some pushing and shoving. Nothing that really looks like FaJin. Disclaimer - I'd really have to feel it personally to say for sure.

No hostility. I'm not angry. It's just that I can tell from your posts that you have not developed skill in using FaJin and until you do, you really have no idea what you are talking about. So I called bullshit. You read a lot and maybe practice a little but if you want to learn the real thing, you must find a good teacher and practice much, much more. Your choice...

I call bullshit

Perhaps, but Buddhism did just that to a large degree. It took central Hindu concepts out of the the Hindu cultural framework and delivered those concepts to distant cultures where they mixed with local culture and blossomed into the Tibetan, Thai, Chinese, and Japanese (....) variations. The central core of the human experience is the substance and the cultural milieu adds the unique flavor. Some would argue that Buddhism even "improved" the core teachings by stripping it of some of the cultural baggage and boiling it down to more of a spiritual "science."

If you're frustrated with those "new agers" you might want to avoid the Buddhists, Vedantists, and non-dual folks too! Oh, and be careful of the Daoists as well. If you stick with the Daoist practices for a while, the whole question of what is happening, who is happening, and where the distinction occurs between the two can become a bit fuzzy. At least it has for me. I think the best thing I've learned from it all is to keep an open mind and try to cultivate awareness. Good fortune on your path.

Great link, SB. Sam Harris is a very clear thinker and persuasive writer.