doc benway

No hostility. I'm not angry. It's just that I can tell from your posts that you have not developed skill in using FaJin and until you do, you really have no idea what you are talking about. So I called bullshit. You read a lot and maybe practice a little but if you want to learn the real thing, you must find a good teacher and practice much, much more. Your choice...

I call bullshit

Perhaps, but Buddhism did just that to a large degree. It took central Hindu concepts out of the the Hindu cultural framework and delivered those concepts to distant cultures where they mixed with local culture and blossomed into the Tibetan, Thai, Chinese, and Japanese (....) variations. The central core of the human experience is the substance and the cultural milieu adds the unique flavor. Some would argue that Buddhism even "improved" the core teachings by stripping it of some of the cultural baggage and boiling it down to more of a spiritual "science."

If you're frustrated with those "new agers" you might want to avoid the Buddhists, Vedantists, and non-dual folks too! Oh, and be careful of the Daoists as well. If you stick with the Daoist practices for a while, the whole question of what is happening, who is happening, and where the distinction occurs between the two can become a bit fuzzy. At least it has for me. I think the best thing I've learned from it all is to keep an open mind and try to cultivate awareness. Good fortune on your path.

Great link, SB. Sam Harris is a very clear thinker and persuasive writer.

It certainly lends itself to revisiting, again and again...

The nature of the thinking mind is to look for meaning in experience.

It's funny how much emphasis there is in Taiji training regarding rooting, distinguishing full/empty, sinking, and so on. At the same time, my teacher stresses that all footwork in Taiji is light and agile. It seems like it's exactly the time spent coordinating the awareness with the root and movement that helps to develop the agility. There is an old saying about it (probably several), but I can't think of it right now. Bagua is a great compliment to developing that agile footwork as well. Sounds like you have a good teacher!

A few tips - I highly recommend warming up before San Ti Shi practice. You can do it before or after other training but make sure you are warm and loose. Rear foot open ~45 degrees, front toe forward or very slightly inward. Front heel in line with rear heel, more or less. 70/30 rear/front is classic and a good place to start. Front hand index finger tip directly above front toe and directly in front of nose. Rear hand thumb points at navel. Space under armpits - not too much, just an open feeling. Shoulders relaxed, elbows sunk, but maintain Song - not collapsed. Mild bend to knees. Start with feet ~ 1.5 feet apart in the beginning (front to back). Lift head from crown, slightly tuck chin. Slightly extend index fingers and thumbs with lesser fingers slightly relaxed to form Hu Kuo (tiger's mouth). Wrists slightly extended but not overly so - beware of extending the wrist too much - it creates too much tension. The photo of Sun Lu Tang exhibits two defects (yup, I'm criticizing Sun Lu Tang's photo). His elbow is too extended and wrist too extended for a beginner to copy - notice how his left hand is forward of his front foot. This is not in keeping with the Xingyiquan principles of three harmonies (hand/foot, elbow/knee, shoulder/hip). Better to have slightly more bend in the elbow and slightly less extension in the wrist. Internally, there are also three harmonies - Xin/Yi, Yi/Qi, Qi/Li Mind/Intent, Intent/Vital Energy, Vital Energy/Power The index finger of the front hand is a good place to focus the intent in the beginning. Xingyiquan emphasizes a very aggressive mind of intent in it's martial method and this state of mind may come naturally with prolonged standing in San Ti Shi. This is natural and desirable if it occurs. This is very challenging training and may become uncomfortable as you challenge yourself. Most complain about the shoulders and thighs. The feet can become painful as well, as your body and mind adjust to the posture and isometric work. Start with 5 minutes per side and slowly build to 30 minutes per side over several months. Don't overdo it in the beginning or you may injure yourself, then it will be harder to progress. Good luck!

Interestingly, my teacher is much more discriminating about who he teaches the meditation to than who he teaches the martial arts to. To him, the meditation is more precious, more effective, takes you much further in any martial practice, and offers more potential for trouble than the martial training. One of my students (at the time, now an instructor) had been practicing pushing hands for about a year. We had an active email list-serve at the time. He posted one day - "Hey guys, this shit really works! I got thrown out of the bar last night and the bouncer couldn't budge me. I just turned my waist and he was helpless!" My response was - why in the world were you getting thrown out of a bar? I thought it was pretty funny at the time. Reminded me of the scene from Ang Lee's movie, Pushing Hands.

I'll take a different approach to your questions - To understand Taijiquan, I think it's more helpful to look at how the various styles are similar rather than different. That is, what is at the heart of the art as opposed to how it's expressed by different families and schools with their unique flavors. From the martial perspective, the basic formula is the same for the different schools though the specific teaching methods certainly vary, not only from school to school but teacher to teacher. The martial components include some common principles: - Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding which translates something like touch, stick, connect, follow, don't separate or resist. This is a quality of interaction with the opponent that is at the foundation of the Taijiquan method. All styles teach this skill through a variety of methods, mostly pushing hands practice and drills - Ba Da Jin translates to eight great strengths and refers to a variety of energetic methods, for example coiling strength, wave strength, folding strength, among others. While the names may differ, the basic energetic patterns are common to the major styles, more or less - Fa Jin which translates as issuing energy and in English may be better translated as explosive force or short force. In Taijiquan, we are always very close to the opponent and generally touching (see zhan nian lian..., above). Therefore, the typical method of striking used in the "external" arts doesn't work as well so we learn to develop powerful offensive force from a very short distance. Fa Jin is shown explicitly in Chen family forms and hidden in the other styles, but is trained in all styles as an integral part of the the offensive technique. Without Fa Jin there is no Quan in Taijiquan. - Using the Yi to guide the Qi - coordination of the awareness with the physical body. This is developed through a variety of methods (sitting and standing meditation, neigong) but most obviously in the various Taijiquan forms. This is where coordination power comes from which is at the heart of Taijiquan power (fa jin power as well as the ba da jin mentioned above). This is where we integrate awareness with breath and body. This is where the concept of one Qi is developed as well as principles like controlling with the waist, posture development, distinguishing full from empty, and so on. The various schools have different postures and slightly different methods of moving but the similarities far outweigh the differences, especially when focusing on the internal aspect of form practice. - Breathing - most styles emphasize natural breathing patterns, although at advanced levels more specific patterns and methods often apply. For example, Fa Jin training is often linked to specific breathing methods - The Thirteen Gates or Postures - the foundation of martial applications is based on eight upper body techniques (gates) and five lower body techniques (directions): peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao, jin bu, tui bu, zuo gu, you pan, zhong ding which are usually translated as ward off, roll back, press, push down, pluck, split, elbow, bump, forward step, retreat step, look left, glance right, central equilibrium. Again, these are the core techniques that are fairly consistent among the styles. In addition, there are sweeping, throwing, grappling, and immobilization techniques contained in all of the styles. This is critical due to the close in nature of the fighting method In my experience with different styles, the differences are primarily in the forms. Once you get into the pushing hands training and practice (and competition), and the martial training methods, and the neigong, and so on, the difference are much more subtle. The problem is that it is very difficult to find a teacher who will offer training in the martial applications. Most teachers have never learned that part and those who have are not always quick to share... I would say all are good for energetic development, coordination, balance, well being, many health benefits, and heightened awareness. None are good for enlightenment (whatever that means). While Taijiquan methods often incorporate meditation methods and many of the training methods do greatly improve mind-body integration and awareness, if you want to pursue spiritual development you're better off following that path (Daoist meditation, Buddhist methods, Vedanta, etc..). And finally, none are good at teaching you how to fight unless: 1) you are fortunate enough to find an exceptional teacher, and 2) several like-minded training partners, and 3) you are willing to commit a decade or two to dedicated and consistent training. I've been involved in full contact fighting for a very long time and there are precious few folks that train primarily in Taijiquan that can really make it work when it counts. Just my $.02, FWIW. Good luck!

I'm getting the same thing using Safari on a Mac. Re the personal forums, I've always thought it would make sense to list them alphabetically. That would make it easier to find the one you want.

Sorry for the delayed response Boy, I've been taking my time with it. I first approached it by listening to a recording. Now I'm reading it... again... Truly amazing. What you referred to as the fool seems to be an ingenious tool. The reader who is looking for or may have had experience with non-dual awareness but does not reside there at all times is constantly reminded of this. These reminders seem to frequently jar one back into that state and I think, over time, can help to stabilize this state. Wonderful stuff!

Recently read two more - 1. Wool - The Omnibus Edition by Hugh Howey.... WOW - great stuff from an independent writer. Very inexpensive ebook. Get it! 2. Radix - AA Attanasio .... I struggled a bit to get through it but overall a pretty good read. Heavily infused with spiritual themes.

I feel that it's a good idea to let everyone know that I've chosen to withdraw from the moderation team. I appreciate the opportunity I was given to try and contribute favorably to the forum. It was a pleasure to work with the entire team; they are a very good and well intentioned group of people. Each and every one of them is motivated by a genuine desire to make the forum the best it can be for all of you.

It is the nature of the weed to grow. It is the nature of Marblehead to pull it. You are nature's way of controlling the weeds.

I'm not a Dao De Jing scholar and I haven't read much of it lately. I practice Daoist methods (Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Daoist meditation, Qigong) much more than I read the philosophy. That said, I do feel that many of the chapters of DDJ reflect the approach of Wu Wei, particularly with respect to governance and interacting with others. Explicitly, governance relates to overseeing a group of people. Implicitly, as everyone knows I'm sure, it can be extended to oneself and personal relationship. Similarly, the concept is widely addressed in the Zhuangzi as well. Whether the Wu Wei concept is purely Daoist, purely Buddhist, Non-dual, or an amalgam of influences over time is not terribly relevant to me. Investigating it deeply in my practice and daily life has been extremely useful in terms of approaching who I am and what I do. Daoist and Buddhist (and by extension, Hindu) concepts have been thoroughly blended over the centuries. I'm not sure it's realistic to try and tease them out as isolated entities. Too much of an abstraction, IMO.

For me, Wu Wei is about getting out of my own way.

Hey, watch the comments about my ass! Thanks for all the nice words folks. I'll be around.

It seems that you may be confusing UG Krishnamurti with Jiddu Krishnamurti. Both had very different points of view. Like thelerner, I see UG as an awakened curmudgeon.

Oh my goodness, yes... I was an angry man for many years. My wife has suffered deeply for it. My children have suffered deeply for it as has my relationship with them. And I, perhaps most of all, have suffered for it after waking up. I'm slowly working through the guilt and regret and bitterness. Much of that is behind me. And I'm certain there is more to come. I think that the focus on the ego is an interesting one. It's also helpful to me to look at how the other comes into play as well. I think it's captured beautifully by Zhuang Zi in the parable of the Empty Boat. Here's an excerpt from Thomas Merton's translation- If a man is crossing a river And an empty boat collides with his own skiff, Even though he be a bad-tempered man He will not become very angry. But if he sees a man in the boat, He will shout at him to steer clear. If the shout is not heard, he will shout again, And yet again, and begin cursing. And all because there is somebody in the boat. Yet if the boat were empty, He would not be shouting and not angry. If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you.... I'm also impressed with your courage, Barbara. Good luck and please remember to be kind to yourself. You deserve this at least as much of that as those around you.

For me, cultivating the Dao means nothing more or less than being fully human. I don't think its ever too late for that. Good luck on your path and welcome to the forum.

Glad to hear recommendations from all. Is the Wilhelm / Baynes a translation of Ta Chuan, I Ching, or both? The only English translation of Ta Chuan I've come across so far is Karcher.

I'll respond to both your posts at once. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does indeed imply that the observer is not separate from the system. At least that's how it was explained to me in a graduate level Quantum Mechanics course I took around 1981. I'm pretty far away from all of that now and haven't really kept up with physics much. What Heisenberg showed was that we could have precise knowledge about the mass OR momentum of a particle but not both. The more accurately we know one piece of information, the less accurately we know the other. From what I was taught, the Observer Effect was a part of his rationale. To locate and/or measure the particle or its momentum requires the interaction of that particle with a photon which necessarily influences it. I guess that it would be more accurate to say that the Observer Effect is the principle in physics that addresses the non-separation between observer and observed. I may be using the two (Uncertainty and Observer Effect) interchangeably and that's probably not optimal. As I said before - I reserve the right to be completely mistaken.

Is there an English translation you can recommend?