doc benway

I also think this is a good topic to discuss - To preface where I'm coming from, I have one foot in the Western paradigm and one in the Eastern paradigm. My work and most of my education is in Western science. My practice is in Daoist meditation techniques and internal Chinese martial arts. I have very little knowledge or training in Chinese philosophy, Yijing, or Fengshui, so I reserve the right to be completely mistaken. Western science tries to be objective. It attempts to control as many variables as possible so as to understand small pieces of the puzzle as accurately as possible. It tries to remove as much observer error and interference as possible to achieve this end. And since the early part of the 20th century it has acknowledged the FACT that the system is never (can never be) independent of the observer. They are intimately interrelated. In some cases the effects of the observer-interference can be measured or recognized, in other cases not. In many cases, the observer effect is adequately accounted for such that the results of Western science can easily be demonstrated, whether those results be good or bad. The Western paradigm is nothing more than a very useful tool. It is not reality. It's not even a good approximation of reality with the exception of limited areas. But it does produce tangible results. Some are healthy, some are unhealthy. Many provide opportunity for exploitation which humans are eager to take advantage of... It's still a very good and useful tool. My own personal opinion is that the Western paradigm will never capture the entire truth of existence (or whatever you want to call it). Daoist methods, on the other hand, don't seem to be rooted in an attempt to be objective. At least, that's certainly the case with the cultivation methods I'm familiar with and what little I know of the other Daoist arts and sciences. These methods are completely rooted in the FACT that the system (environment, world, universe) is never (can never be) independent of the observer. The Daoist methods work from the starting point of the observer and extend inward (meditation techniques, internal arts) or outward (Yijing, Fengshui, martial arts) and ultimately working inward leads to the outside and working outward leads back to the inside. The Western paradigm is no different in this regard. A deep investigation of the environment (outward) led Heisenberg inward (the Uncertainty Principle). And any investigation inward shows us the connection and continuity with the outside (study of biologic systems or subatomic physics, for example). Personally, I don't see that big of a difference between the two. Both are very useful and valuable tools. Both produce results. Neither are without flaw. Both can be exploited by the unethical. In the end, both are systems that were developed over time by the process of human thought in an attempt to explain observations and experience and to try and make predictions. Both have successes and failures. Neither, in my opinion, is complete or perfect. Nor is either "ideal." And, in my opinion, neither will ever fully capture or explain the entire truth of existence because that is beyond the human mind's capability. The mind is limited and it's nature is to try and comprehend everything that passes by. It's certainly laudable and worthwhile to use it to it's fullest and go as far as it will take us, but it will always have limits. Sorry to sound so preachy.

I just finished reading the entire Walking Dead comic series - FANTASTIC! I've never read comics before but these were compelling. Another good SF novel I read a while back was The Passage by Justin Cronin. The follow up to it is due in October

I've been reading through some of Jiddu Krishnamurti's works lately - excerpts from To Be Human and Total Freedom. And I just started reading a novel in five parts called "Wool" about a dystopian, post-apocalyptic future by Hugh Howey. Next I'm planning to read Discourses on Ashtavakra Gita by Swami Chinmayananda. My friend and training partner is reading it currently and loving it.

I love that!

The system is built on first developing a solid foundation then adding incrementally based on the student's progress and so forth. Publishing an advanced technique on a public forum for strangers to play around with would be irresponsible and disrespectful to my teacher and style. Not only that, without having the foundation, it would be a total waste of time. It would be like teaching someone an advanced pushing hands technique without ever teaching them about Song... PS - I don't mean any disrespect. I take this training very seriously and I would only teach the methods in the same systematic fashion that I was trained by my teacher. He would never pull out an advanced meditation technique and teach it in a public forum, nor will I. Particularly when you get to the more advanced and secret techniques, they are reserved for long term, committed, and loyal students. This particular technique is only shared with disciples in our system. Sorry.

Of course! It's an integral part of my daily practice but not my primary focus. Tough to explain what I mean by that unless you understand the specifics of the system. It's actually extremely simple but you need quite a bit of preparation and foundation training to be able to "master" and see benefits from the technique.

According to my teacher there are two approaches to this type of training - External - primarily physical training of the sort mentioned above Internal - meditation techniques I began working on the internal method about 2 years into my meditation training. After focusing on the appropriate techniques for about 3 months, my training partners were shocked at my increase in speed and agility - sort of one second I'm there, the next I'm gone type thing when attacked. I worked on it for a few years but eventually turned my attention to other areas of the system. It's the kind of training that you need to specialize in and really commit to over a long period of time. I saw enough progress to be convinced that it works.

I can help you here. I have developed a method that I call "Opening the Door." For $5, I can send you the pdf file describing the technique. For $29.95, I can send you a DVD.

Do mean the Yellow Emperor Classic? Huang Di Nei Jing is the correct Pinyin spelling - try searching that.

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My feeling is that "why" is a characteristic of human thought rather than a characteristic of existence. So I would ask "why" is there a desire to ask "why"? Typically "why" questions relate to a desire for security, or in other words, a desire for the absence of uncertainty.

I'm sorry he pushed you that far, Aaron. It's unfortunate when we have to resort to violence but there are times when it's very difficult to avoid it. I don't fault you for your action. It doesn't sound like he gave you much choice.

Here's an alternative perspective of David Icke. http://davidickedebunked.com/ I don't hold an opinion one way or the other - not really interested in the stuff.

The system I practice includes an exercise called "The Three Powers" and involves working with points related to heaven/earth/man. I first learned it about 3 or 4 years into my training and it would be difficult to describe the methodology as there is a lot of foundation work to be accomplished before getting to this level. In terms of describing the experiences associated with the practice, it would not be helpful to get into that. My teacher has always emphasized the importance of each student doing the work for him/herself. If one shares one's experience with others, it is more likely to be a hindrance than a help. It tends to establish points of reference and expectation of what one should experience and suddenly we begin to create experiences for ourselves that lead us in aberrant directions. At more advanced levels, sharing notes can be of some value among practitioners in the same style. I will say this, with all due respect, the flowery descriptive language you quote above sounds very corny to my ear. Someone is trying too hard and, as I mention above, putting these images and ideas into the head of beginner students is much more of a distraction than an aid in their practice. As far as I am concerned, anyone who tells you what you should be looking for in your meditation practice is doing you a disservice and should reconsider their approach to Daoist instruction. Just my strongly opinionated opinion. Much better to instruct you in the basic method and then give guidance periodically based on what experiences you are having. The basic practice does address the inter-relationship of heaven, man, and earth (for lack of better terminology). It is something that verbal descriptions and intellectual investigation just doesn't approach in a meaningful way. I agree that to benefit from these methods it is absolutely essential to find a credible teacher.

In our system, the MCO is practiced going up the governing vessel and down the conception vessel. The position of the tongue is not related to the specific path in this system. Rather, it is held in the "water" position to facilitate optimal generation of the "golden elixir" which is then used in transforming the Jing to Qi. As Dawei mentioned, this is just our system. There are many variations on the basic theme.

I think this is a great point and one of the beautiful paradoxes we encounter on our path. I love how Peter Fenner captures it in a phrase - "If we hadn't done what we didn't need to do we wouldn't know that we didn't need to do it!" Certainly there are activities that are more conducive to recognizing our conditioning and what lies behind it and other activities that reinforce less beneficial conditioned patterns. In my experience, zhan zhuang is a great practice for opening to what is and letting go much of what we add to it. It gives us an opportunity to feel ourselves and watch the patterns of thought as they come and go. It's a rare opportunity to be in the body and to open up to feeling what that is like without distraction. The absence of movement and muscular tension allows one to cultivate stillness and sensitivity. It is simply meditation in a standing posture. It can be practiced in association with neigong exercises or simply done from an attitude of purely unconditioned awareness. Taijiquan, on the other hand, certainly does involve learning new patterns of conditioning. And as the student advances, it helps one to tap into the mind-body connection in ways that promote health and wellness, balance and harmony, and sensitivity not only to oneself (as in zhan zhuang, zuo wang, and form practice) but others (as in push hands and martial practice). And in very advanced stages one can let go of the conditioned patterns and simply allow one to be an expression of what is without adding or subtracting. Three of the primary attitudes we try to cultivate are Song 鬆 (relaxed structure), Jing 靜 (calm, quiet), and Zi Ran 自然 (natural). Any physical movement can be an expression of Taijiquan if it embraces these qualities. And notice that what we are conditioning are "relaxed, calm, and natural." In other words, conditioning non-conditioning in a sense. The martial expression of Taijiquan emphasizes Zhan, Nian, Lian, Sui, Bu Diu, and Bu Ding - 沾黏連隨不丟頂. This means basically to connect to the opponent, to stay connected, to move with the opponent, to avoid resistance or separation. You become a reflection of the opponent's efforts, you don't add or resist, but also you seize the opportunity, when it presents itself, to end the conflict. So you are there and in control but not there and do very little. Doing without doing... a martial expression of Wu Wei. At least, that's how I see it. And I agree that at some point even these beneficial practices are still patterns of conditioning and eventually need to be transcended and seen for what they are if one's goal is to transcend conditioning and find out what, if anything, lies beyond it. But in my experience these practices will take you closer to the truth than many other activities we choose to spend our time with.

Ah, yes. I agree.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

The only way to begin to "understand" zhan zhuang is through practice. Start with 5 minutes per day standing in the natural posture and gradually increase to at least 30 minutes per day - an hour is even better but is very challenging. No amount of study or intellectual investigation will help you to experience the benefits of zhan zhuang or to understand dawei's response. If you stand every day for one month, you will see. Zhan zhuang is not simply used for "building up muscle tone (harden the muscles)". There are very many benefits. For the beginning Taijiquan student, it is a very valuable tool for learning song - 鬆. In the beginning, most Taijiquan students are encourage to stand in the most relaxed manner possible while maintaining proper posture. Unnecessary muscle tone is minimized. Standing is a great way to begin to explore the use of the Yi to guide the Qi through the body. To guide the Qi, one needs to be Song. This is why it is important to be relaxed when standing. If the muscles are tense, it is much more difficult (impossible for beginners) to learn to guide the Qi. For more advanced students, zhan zhuang is beneficial to achieve Song even when the muscles are working harder. That's when it's good to introduce postures like "hug the tree", "horse stance", single leg stances, empty stances, and so on.

FWIW, here is another perspective on Qi which mentions the different characters used and dismisses the earlier character as nothing more significant than a reflection of the time period during which it was used. Not trying to say any one perspective is right or wrong, just different ideas and opinions to consider. http://www.buqi.net/en/articles/chi.htm Here is the excerpt concerning the two characters - "The character for qi in Lishu Lishu Lishu was an ancient style of calligraphy, the official script used in the Han Dynasty (206 BC- 220 AD). The qi character in Lishu evolved from another character which combined the symbol for vapour and the symbol for fire, as was the case with the qi character on the Xingqi Ming. Taoist books often use this Chinese character for qi because Taoism began in the Han Dynasty when the Lishu way of writing was used. In Taoism qi refers to 'the internal energy of the body'. Therefore nowadays people think that this qi character specifically refers to internal energy, but this is not correct as in Lishu script qi does not have this specific meaning."

Interesting, thanks.

I think that your insights are spot on and a reflection of your level of commitment to your path. Qigong and Taijiquan have lots of benefits - improved physical health and well being, a mechanism for becoming more aware of the interaction between physical manifestation and awareness. A method for investigating characteristics of time and space. And it's certainly helpful to have a healthy mind, body, and spirit if you dare to seek after Enlightenment. And as you start to look deeply at and into yourself and your relationship to your environment, acknowledging the limitations and potential distractions created by your practices (be they Qigong, Taijiquan, meditation, Advaita, Dzogchen, and all of the rest) is a normal and important part of the process IME. How you reconcile all of that will determine how to move forward from that point. And this is something that each of us has to work through for ourselves. This is an area where teachers can offer little guidance. And it ain't easy. Like you, just my $.02. Good luck!

Welcome - Perhaps you can learn something here. And hopefully we can learn from you as well!

I agree with the YMWong's comments here and will offer the following information for those who are interested - 炁 (reference - http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/?pageID=CharDict/View:pinyin&query=7081). According to my ShiYe, this is the original character for Qi and can only be found in very old Daoist writings. It is now obsolete and has been replaced in modern use with 氣. The intention of the old character was to distinguish Qi from Air or Breath which contain Qi but also include other things (oxygen, nitrogen, impurities, the respiratory process, and so on). Neigong goes beyond breathing. It goes beyond the internal organs. In internal practices, we are developing skill with using the Yi - 意. We are experiencing the internal universe in a Daoist "energetic" paradigm. One can argue that we are discovering that universe or creating it - I think both perspectives have merit and are applicable. I used quotes because use of the English word energy tends to create confusion. People tend to equate Qi to electromagnetic energy which I think is potentially misleading and inaccurate. Certainly, there may be a relationship between the two but it is not something that has been adequately demonstrated IMO hence the quotes... There are many different applications and exercises which vary from school to school. The emphasis of neigong is generally on cultivating the Yi and learning how to use it to clarify, guide, and utilize the Qi and eventually taking that to more advanced levels involving transformation of jing, qi, and shen and so forth. On the other hand, the emphasis of qigong is generally working with the breath in coordination with physical movement. Here the benefits are very much connected with the internal organs but less directly related to the "energetic" structure that is developed/discovered through neigong. Certainly this distinction can be vague in certain systems and there is overlap but in my experience it works pretty well as a rule of thumb.

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