doc benway

More of my unsolicited and opinionated verbiage... Qigong and other Daoist methods such as Taijquan, neigong, and meditation, are tools that invite us to practice more than think. The mind is not used in these arts as an analytical tool to seek rational understanding through the scientific method of theorem and proof. It's used in different ways that have different benefits. You may subject these methods to rational scrutiny if you choose, but then you will miss the very "understanding" that these methods offer. If you choose to practice Qigong, you don't need to suspend disbelief, only suspend analysis. There is never any need for belief, just awareness. Examining the methods of one paradigm with the methods of another do neither justice. The fundamental axioms are unrelated. Just like Shamanism and Vedanta don't enhance the scientific method's accuracy and effectiveness, nor does applying scientific scrutiny of experiential and tantric practices enhance the experience and benefits derived thereof. So if you "seek enlightenment through understanding," Qigong, Neigong, and related arts are not the right tool. "Enlightenment through understanding" is more in the realm of what the Hindus would call a Jnana Yoga (Yoga of knowledge). Science fits into that category.

My friend and training partner Jeremy Harlow has created a shamanic shape-shifting Qigong system based on the Medicine Wheel. It's the best Qigong system I've ever practiced. I like it better than 8 Brocades, Shiba Luohan, Taiji Ruler, Taiji Jian Shen Fa - anything. His website is www.danceswithspirit.com. I'm currently practicing Golden Eagle Awakens a Vision. A crow helped me with it on the beach yesterday. It's simply amazing.

Au revoir!

It seems like there are three aspects to consider - - Philosophical - Analytical - Experiential There is the mind, thought, and all it creates. This includes philosophy and all analytical methods. Then there is whatever it is beyond that, including the true nature of what we see "out there" and "in here." And we can use the analytical methods to measure and define. We can use the philosophical methods to interpret and conceptualize. And we can use experiential methods to explore that in a different way, through direct experience. The experiential way can show us things that are beyond the capacity of science and philosophy to truly capture - the color red. All of it is worthy of careful examination, otherwise your exploration is restricted, as will be the "understanding." And understanding includes both the philosophical and scientific - they are different expressions of intellectual measurement and definition. And there is certainly much that is beyond understanding. How to approach that?

Interesting statement here. Dao is not restricted by logic, logic is a convention of thought. At the core of reality you will find paradox. Science knows this as well. And good science acknowledges its limitations. I have one foot in the scientific camp and one in the cultivation camp. If you restrict your experience of Qigong to scientific analysis, you will be disappointed. Certainly there is the physiological aspect which some like to study. But there many other aspects that do not lend themselves to the scientific paradigm. In my opinion, science cannot yet approach Qi or Qigong in a meaningful, comprehensive, and satisfactory fashion. And if it can, I'm not convinced it is or would be helpful. Can you explain your conscious awareness in scientific terms? Certainly we can discuss the neurological foundation of consciousness and awareness for hours but there is an aspect of consciousness and awareness that defies scientific explanation or analysis. It is the experiential aspect. And this is at the core of Daoism. Daoist cultivation (Qigong, Neigong, Taijiquan, and so on), exists to help guide us along this path. It is not dependent on or amenable to comprehensive scientific analysis, like it or not. Qigong invites us to open and explore the interaction between conscious awareness and physical manifestation. My experience of Qi is more one of the process or interaction between manifestation and awareness (Jing <-> Qi <-> Shen). This is an exploration of your inner process and workings from an experiential point of view. To reduce or equate this to a concept from a different paradigm, such as electromagnetic energy, is inaccurate and misleading. The scientific paradigm has not yet achieved enough understanding of consciousness and awareness to create an adequate model. It's just a poor approximation that leaves out more than it explains. You can try to find ways to mold the Daoist paradigm (which is inherently experiential) into the scientific paradigm (which is based on a fixed set of conditions, parameters, and observation) and there is certainly overlap and agreement in some areas. But in doing this you are excluding a core element that is really at the heart of the Daoist paradigm. There is no need to believe anything in Qigong. Just to practice. Rational explanations are limited - explain the color red to me so that I see red, making no assumptions. Qigong lets me see the color, science helps me to describe it but never captures it's essence.

You are correct - as a moderator I should have shown more self control. That is one of the drawbacks of being a moderator, and at the same time one of the benefits. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to learn from my mistake. I have removed the offending comments. I genuinely apologize for my lack of discretion and compassion.

None taken my friend. I genuinely wish you success and good fortune on your path, whatever form that may take, and simply wanted to share alternative perspectives based on your posts. You are 100% correct - no one can walk your path but you. At the same time, don't forget to keep an open mind and be willing to challenge your beliefs and paradigms. Particularly if where you are at does not seem to be where you want to be. That very kernel of conflict is at the core of suffering.

Fa Jin does NOT mean to attack or strike without touching. My apologies to Flowing Hands for posting an insulting comment in my initial post. It has been removed and I have learned from my insensitivity. Taijiquan combat is unique in that it adheres to the principles of 沾黏連隨不丟頂 Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding. This means to touch, stick, connect, follow, don't separate or resist. This is what separates it from the external approaches, and other internals, for that matter, in this, or any other age. In Taijiquan, since its inception, the practitioner stays very close to his opponent - always in physical contact. As a result, a different kind of strike had to develop to be effective at such close range, traditional striking with the hand becomes much less effective. Fa Jin is the method of generating powerful force over short distance. Because of this fact, it has a very different effect on the opponent - it has more of a penetrating effect and has a tendency to damage internally and propel. It is not magic, it is physics. If I punch a heavy wooden dresser with my fist, I may crack the surface of the wood, the dresser won't move much. If I strike it with a powerful shove from a starting point of physical contact (Ji or An), I will rattle the contents and move the entire dresser - this is the difference. Nothing about Fa Jin implies that you do not touch your opponent. You are correct that Taijiquan is not all soft - it is balance. It is the martial application of Yin and Yang. Soft and hard, light and heavy, etc... You are mistaken to say that being soft and relaxed do not help the Qi to develop. Three requirements of form practice in Taijiquan are to be Song 鬆, Jing 靜, and Zi Ran 自然 . Song means a relaxation but not collapsed, I usually describe it as relaxed structure. Jing is calm and Zi Ran is natural. These three requirements specifically help the student to culture the Qi during practice of the form, or perhaps better stated to develop the Yi/Qi coordination.

I fully agree with RV - cultivation is an ongoing process. A full commitment means to work at it all the time, under any circumstances, not only when certain conditions are met. No conditions are necessary - unless of course if you are attached to a specific idea of what cultivation is and what is necessary to begin and continue. That is a trap that many people fall into, even at fairly high levels. Rather than work to change your environment, begin to do the work to look at yourself. That does not exclude continuing to work to change your environment if you choose but it is NOT the environment that needs changing. What needs changing is the idea that you need to do something to change the environment. There is nothing wrong with the environment, it is just as it must be at this moment. If you don't see this, your commitment will be very flimsy indeed.

Maybe I'll check one of those out, thanks. I'm certainly not advocating a dismissal of teachings, especially if that has the effect of preserving an existing paradigm, intentional or otherwise. The teachings of most credible traditions have great value (and generally converge). I agree with you regarding transcending our preconceived notions and conditioning and this is what I was referring to with respect to needing a path in the beginning. I agree with using cultivation in a "scientific" manner as well. My point is more that we need to critically evaluate any teachings we are subscribing to, investigate personally and thoroughly with an open mind, do the work for ourselves, and avoid getting too attached to and dependent on others' guidance. We even need to abandon our gurus at some point on our path. They can only take us so far. Accepting others' answers as our own because someone has declared them enlightened is a slippery slope. We need to do the work ourselves, critically evaluate what it is doing for our lives with an open mind, and take responsibility for our journey.

And clutching at straws Cherub faced, laughing children Slurp up their milkshakes

I have no doubt of that and I did not intend to imply that I think he is a fraud or to challenge his attainment. I was exploring the whole idea of spiritual authority. The very act of delegating authority to another in spiritual matters warrants careful consideration. Spirituality is the inner exploration. While most of us need a path of some sort for a time, once we accept an authority and adopt their answers as our own, we close ourselves off. I was curious as to who we are willing to accept as our spiritual authorities and whose definition of Enlightenment we are willing to adopt.

Welcome everyone. Thanks to Sean, we're going to start an online Book Club here on the Tao Bums forum. Sean has asked that I take a shot at moderating this forum. I'll do my best - I'm a virgin moderator so please be gentle! In an effort to make this a rewarding and balanced experience for everyone, we've decided to establish some basic guidelines. Please let me know if you have any problems or suggestions. I. New topics will only be created by the moderator. This is important in an effort to maintain organization and coherence. For now, all other new topics will be closed or moved to prevent confusion and distraction. Sean and I appreciate your cooperation on this point. II. I'll try to limit new topics to one of three varieties 1. Book Decision Topic - My intention is to ask for reading recommendations in this type of thread. Please make one suggestion and add a very brief description of why you think the book is appropriate. I would ask that suggested books have some relevance to what interests us here - Daoism Buddhism, Zen, Eastern Philosophy, Eastern History, Martial Arts, Cultivation, Meditation, and so on. Non-fiction will probably predominate but there's no reason why we can't explore works of fiction or poetry that lean in these directions. Assuming we achieve an easy consensus, we have our next selection. Otherwise, please see below. 2. Book Poll Topic - If we don't reach an easy consensus on a book selection, I will create a poll and we will select a book by vote. If we have a tie or some other stand off (or no suggestions), the moderator will make a decision. 3. Book Discussion Topic - This will be the general discussion thread for the book. I will try and limit this to a finite amount of time. I will also try and interject a bit of structure to the discussion to keep things on track, relevant, and mutually respectful. 4. I'll keep the very first topic, Book Club Anyone?, open for small talk. This is where to brainstorm, share what you're currently reading, general chit chat, and so on. Let's try and keep it separate from the selection, poll, and discussion threads for clarity, please. III. To begin, let's try one book per month. Here is more or less how I'll try to lay things out We start reading book A at the beginning of this month and select book B to be read next month. Next month we begin discussing A, begin reading B, and select C. And so it goes.... I'll leave book discussions open indefinitely as long as it doesn't get too distracting or confusing. Please remember to try and keep an open mind. This is intended to be a way to open us all up to new ideas and perspectives. My intention is to try and moderate this forum, including book selection in a fair and unbiased manner. I'm hoping we will find it valuable and fun. I'm always open to suggestions Thanks for your interest and participation, Steve

That's fine. Can you just be with that desire? See it for what it is? See how it is just like any other desire? Just another manifestation of the mind that wants to control it's environment. The whole idea of cycles and reincarnation and transcending and enlightenment. All of it is a creation of the mind. Once you see the essence of what the mind does, letting go may become easier. I wish you peace.

I think he is completely mistaken. Death is not only coming, it is all around us. Complete dissolution of physical being is blessed release. Sure the transition can be difficult and painful. That is natural. But death is nothing to fear. You can finally let go of all suffering, all expectations, all worldly concerns. It is not about sugar coating or denial. It is about letting go.

Or a first? Beautiful sentiment -K- Thanks for that.

Out of curiosity, who is the authority in this regard? No disrespect intended.

Respectfully, you are confusing jin (勁) and jing (精). 發勁 is what you are referring to. It is not fa jing, it is fa jin. Fa jin is NOT a misnomer. 勁 = jin can be translated as power or force. 精 = jing which is reproductive or generative potential or essence. 發 = fa and can be translated as issue, send out, or emit 發勁 or Fa jin simply means to issue force and practically speaking refers to explosive force generated over a short distance.

Very cool avenue of self inquiry. Perhaps a similar perspective is that "me" is the conduit or construction that facilitates life to be self aware? Every living thing is me. There is nothing alive that is not "me". "Me" is always there no many how many "me's" come and go into and out of living. So it seems that "me-ness" is somehow a condition that is always present. It seems to be dependent on the existence of life but not restricted to any individual experience of life. Sort of like a non-local effect that is both dependent on things like sensory apparatus and neurological function but at the same time, unrestricted and beyond measurement or localization... Sorry to ramble but it's a fun subject... pardon the pun

A few thoughts and opinions based on my experience with studying, practicing, and teaching Taijiquan (Tai Chi). Taijiquan is a martial art that includes multiple elements. What you see most commonly is practice of Taijiquan forms. This is the slow moving, meditative dance. Based on what you describe in your opening post, I think that you could potentially benefit a great deal from proper instruction in Taijiquan. The basics that would help you along your path include standing meditation, breathing, and practice of the form. There are many other practices which you can get into later, if you like. The reason that the forms are practiced in slow motion is to allow the student to develop a very deep connection between mind and body. This includes developing a high level of awareness and sensitivity as to what is going on in the mind, body, and environment. In order to develop the mind/body connection, one has to achieve a level of tranquility of the mind. This is basically the same type of mental tranquility that we cultivate in sitting meditation practice. The difference is that it is connected with breathing and body movement. This is an extremely beneficial practice that can greatly enhance every aspect of your life. This is the same thing that goes on in proper Qigong (Chi Kung) practice. As the mind learns to be tranquil, awareness develops. Awareness is the key to everything. You become more in touch with how your body feels, functions, and moves. You develop a deeper understanding and control of how the mind controls the body and how the body controls the mind. You eventually develop a level of mind/body coordination that can allow you to do things that might seem to the uninitiated as "magical" or "superhuman" but it is simply proper use of mind, body, and spirit. Some of the higher levels of attainment can only be achieved by incorporating certain sitting meditation practices but that is way in the future if you are just starting out. I would highly recommend Taijiquan if you are interested in developing a healthier mind and body, if you are interested in the cultivation of internal energy, or if you are interested in an exploration of yourself. There are plenty of other practices that offer similar benefits (Qigong, Yoga, etc...). In my experience, however, Taijiquan practice by itself will not result in some of the very deep spiritual awakenings that one encounters with more dedicated practice of meditation and self inquiry, but it is a VERY good complimentary practice to coordinate the spiritual development with cultivation of a healthy body, mind, and spirit. The alchemical practices that convert Jing to Qi to Shen to Wu are not a part of the normal Taijquan curriculum. They are beneficial practices in their own right and are elements of Daoist meditation methods. These are the methods I referred to earlier that are important in the development of high level Taijiquan skills. They are not needed in the first few years of practice but can be added as a very beneficial supplement at any time (provided, of course, that you have credible instruction). Good luck with your journey!

I have nothing intelligent or insightful to add but I can't help but share a lyric from King Missle's song: It's Saturday I want to be different, like everybody else I want to be like I want to be just like all the different people I have no further interest in being the same, because I have seen difference all around, and now I know that that's what I want I don't want to blend in and be indistinguishable, I want to be a part of the different crowd, and assert my individuality along with the others who are different like me I don't want to be identical to anyone or anything I don't even want to be identical to myself I want to look in the mirror and wonder, "who is that person? I've never seen that person before; I've never seen anyone like that before." I want to call into question thevery idea that identity can be attached I want a floating, shifting, ever changing persona: Invisibility and obscurity, detachment from the ego and all of it's pursuits. Unity is useless Comformity is competitive and divisive and leads only to stagnation and death. If what I'm saying doesn't make any sense, that's because sense can not be made It's something that must be sensed And I, for one, am incensed by all this complacency Why oppose war only when there's a war? Why defend the clinics only when they're attacked? Why are we always reactive? Let's activate something Let's fuck shit up Whatever happened to revolution for the hell of it? Whatever happened to protesting nothing in particular, just protesting cause it's Saturday and there's nothing else to do John Hall and Roger Murdock I mean no one any disrespect, I just dig this song and wanted to share it...

I usually like Snopes but they seemed way too far in the American Meat Institute's camp on this one. Wikipedia has better info, IMO.