doc benway

So true and so important - looking deeply into the whole process of thought and its content is critical for growth.

Good question - who has the insight and authority to protect adults from themselves? I've had a similar discussion regarding a woman's freedom to engage in pornography and prostitution.

I think that women should live their lives without concern for whether someone else would like it if they would be a certain way or look a certain way. What concern is it of mine as to how a woman dresses or presents herself? That's her choice to make. All I need to do is look into why it is that I would want a woman to act in a certain way for my benefit. Then decide if I want to act on that thought. It is not selfish for me to live my life as I see fit. Selfishness is expecting you to live your life as I see fit. Demello

Great question. I'll be happy to add some thoughts. The spiritual community is as full of scammers and BS artists as other communities. Quite possibly more so because the subject matter is, for the most part, completely subjective and gratuitous. And how many of us would agree on who is real and who is fake? And is anyone all real or all fake? I think that every "guru" or system is unique. Some all crap, some absolutely priceless. Most fall somewhere in between. It's a difficult area to navigate. And I doubt that many of us feel that we leave rationality out of it. Certain aspects of the process require rational decision making - Is this practice helping me in some way? Is the "guru" practicing what he preaches? Does this person act in a way that supports or misleads those around him/her? Is the cost reasonable? Do I know others who have benefited in some measurable way? Based on my own background and conditioning, does this make sense for me at this point in my life? And it's very tough to measure the benefits . Here are a few that I consider good indicators - - I feel less stressed - My health has improved - My feeling of well being and tranquility are enhanced - I feel more kindness and civility to those around me and to myself - I smile and laugh more - I feel OK with my life, I don't fight against the world as much, I appreciate and enjoy it more - I'm beginning to see that patterns of behavior in my life that normally go on without my conscious awareness - I'm beginning to question choices that I may have made in the past without even thinking about it Rationality is important in evaluating methods and progress just as it's important in most aspects of our lives. So the question is, what is the role of the rational mind in the actual practices themselves? Does "understanding" the physiological basis of Taiji, Qigong, and meditation actually enhance the practice itself? While I don't deny that subjecting these methods to rational scrutiny has value, the answer is basically no, IMO. You can have a complete and thorough understanding of how and why Qigong helps your body and if you are not practicing regularly, you will derive no benefit. And if you have absolutely no intellectual understanding of the practice and you do the practice correctly and regularly, the benefit is not diminished at all. And you can be the world's foremost authority and scholar on Taijiquan and a rank beginner could knock you on your ass if you do not put in the hours, months, years of training. Basically, I see the color red whether or not I understand the neurological and physiological processes that are involved in that process. Red is no more red today than it was in the 12th century simply because we "understand" the process. The rational mind is necessary to help us choose the "right" method or teacher and also to help us know when we've made the wrong choice or have out-grown the teacher or the method. But that is not to be confused with the fact that these experiential practices, especially the more meditative techniques, do not benefit from engaging the rational process of thought. In fact, their very purpose is to help us discover whether or not there is anything that is beyond the limited scope of our thought.

Yes you can. The question is 'may' you be happy?

More of my unsolicited and opinionated verbiage... Qigong and other Daoist methods such as Taijquan, neigong, and meditation, are tools that invite us to practice more than think. The mind is not used in these arts as an analytical tool to seek rational understanding through the scientific method of theorem and proof. It's used in different ways that have different benefits. You may subject these methods to rational scrutiny if you choose, but then you will miss the very "understanding" that these methods offer. If you choose to practice Qigong, you don't need to suspend disbelief, only suspend analysis. There is never any need for belief, just awareness. Examining the methods of one paradigm with the methods of another do neither justice. The fundamental axioms are unrelated. Just like Shamanism and Vedanta don't enhance the scientific method's accuracy and effectiveness, nor does applying scientific scrutiny of experiential and tantric practices enhance the experience and benefits derived thereof. So if you "seek enlightenment through understanding," Qigong, Neigong, and related arts are not the right tool. "Enlightenment through understanding" is more in the realm of what the Hindus would call a Jnana Yoga (Yoga of knowledge). Science fits into that category.

My friend and training partner Jeremy Harlow has created a shamanic shape-shifting Qigong system based on the Medicine Wheel. It's the best Qigong system I've ever practiced. I like it better than 8 Brocades, Shiba Luohan, Taiji Ruler, Taiji Jian Shen Fa - anything. His website is www.danceswithspirit.com. I'm currently practicing Golden Eagle Awakens a Vision. A crow helped me with it on the beach yesterday. It's simply amazing.

Au revoir!

It seems like there are three aspects to consider - - Philosophical - Analytical - Experiential There is the mind, thought, and all it creates. This includes philosophy and all analytical methods. Then there is whatever it is beyond that, including the true nature of what we see "out there" and "in here." And we can use the analytical methods to measure and define. We can use the philosophical methods to interpret and conceptualize. And we can use experiential methods to explore that in a different way, through direct experience. The experiential way can show us things that are beyond the capacity of science and philosophy to truly capture - the color red. All of it is worthy of careful examination, otherwise your exploration is restricted, as will be the "understanding." And understanding includes both the philosophical and scientific - they are different expressions of intellectual measurement and definition. And there is certainly much that is beyond understanding. How to approach that?

Interesting statement here. Dao is not restricted by logic, logic is a convention of thought. At the core of reality you will find paradox. Science knows this as well. And good science acknowledges its limitations. I have one foot in the scientific camp and one in the cultivation camp. If you restrict your experience of Qigong to scientific analysis, you will be disappointed. Certainly there is the physiological aspect which some like to study. But there many other aspects that do not lend themselves to the scientific paradigm. In my opinion, science cannot yet approach Qi or Qigong in a meaningful, comprehensive, and satisfactory fashion. And if it can, I'm not convinced it is or would be helpful. Can you explain your conscious awareness in scientific terms? Certainly we can discuss the neurological foundation of consciousness and awareness for hours but there is an aspect of consciousness and awareness that defies scientific explanation or analysis. It is the experiential aspect. And this is at the core of Daoism. Daoist cultivation (Qigong, Neigong, Taijiquan, and so on), exists to help guide us along this path. It is not dependent on or amenable to comprehensive scientific analysis, like it or not. Qigong invites us to open and explore the interaction between conscious awareness and physical manifestation. My experience of Qi is more one of the process or interaction between manifestation and awareness (Jing <-> Qi <-> Shen). This is an exploration of your inner process and workings from an experiential point of view. To reduce or equate this to a concept from a different paradigm, such as electromagnetic energy, is inaccurate and misleading. The scientific paradigm has not yet achieved enough understanding of consciousness and awareness to create an adequate model. It's just a poor approximation that leaves out more than it explains. You can try to find ways to mold the Daoist paradigm (which is inherently experiential) into the scientific paradigm (which is based on a fixed set of conditions, parameters, and observation) and there is certainly overlap and agreement in some areas. But in doing this you are excluding a core element that is really at the heart of the Daoist paradigm. There is no need to believe anything in Qigong. Just to practice. Rational explanations are limited - explain the color red to me so that I see red, making no assumptions. Qigong lets me see the color, science helps me to describe it but never captures it's essence.

You are correct - as a moderator I should have shown more self control. That is one of the drawbacks of being a moderator, and at the same time one of the benefits. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to learn from my mistake. I have removed the offending comments. I genuinely apologize for my lack of discretion and compassion.

None taken my friend. I genuinely wish you success and good fortune on your path, whatever form that may take, and simply wanted to share alternative perspectives based on your posts. You are 100% correct - no one can walk your path but you. At the same time, don't forget to keep an open mind and be willing to challenge your beliefs and paradigms. Particularly if where you are at does not seem to be where you want to be. That very kernel of conflict is at the core of suffering.

Fa Jin does NOT mean to attack or strike without touching. My apologies to Flowing Hands for posting an insulting comment in my initial post. It has been removed and I have learned from my insensitivity. Taijiquan combat is unique in that it adheres to the principles of 沾黏連隨不丟頂 Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding. This means to touch, stick, connect, follow, don't separate or resist. This is what separates it from the external approaches, and other internals, for that matter, in this, or any other age. In Taijiquan, since its inception, the practitioner stays very close to his opponent - always in physical contact. As a result, a different kind of strike had to develop to be effective at such close range, traditional striking with the hand becomes much less effective. Fa Jin is the method of generating powerful force over short distance. Because of this fact, it has a very different effect on the opponent - it has more of a penetrating effect and has a tendency to damage internally and propel. It is not magic, it is physics. If I punch a heavy wooden dresser with my fist, I may crack the surface of the wood, the dresser won't move much. If I strike it with a powerful shove from a starting point of physical contact (Ji or An), I will rattle the contents and move the entire dresser - this is the difference. Nothing about Fa Jin implies that you do not touch your opponent. You are correct that Taijiquan is not all soft - it is balance. It is the martial application of Yin and Yang. Soft and hard, light and heavy, etc... You are mistaken to say that being soft and relaxed do not help the Qi to develop. Three requirements of form practice in Taijiquan are to be Song 鬆, Jing 靜, and Zi Ran 自然 . Song means a relaxation but not collapsed, I usually describe it as relaxed structure. Jing is calm and Zi Ran is natural. These three requirements specifically help the student to culture the Qi during practice of the form, or perhaps better stated to develop the Yi/Qi coordination.

I fully agree with RV - cultivation is an ongoing process. A full commitment means to work at it all the time, under any circumstances, not only when certain conditions are met. No conditions are necessary - unless of course if you are attached to a specific idea of what cultivation is and what is necessary to begin and continue. That is a trap that many people fall into, even at fairly high levels. Rather than work to change your environment, begin to do the work to look at yourself. That does not exclude continuing to work to change your environment if you choose but it is NOT the environment that needs changing. What needs changing is the idea that you need to do something to change the environment. There is nothing wrong with the environment, it is just as it must be at this moment. If you don't see this, your commitment will be very flimsy indeed.

Maybe I'll check one of those out, thanks. I'm certainly not advocating a dismissal of teachings, especially if that has the effect of preserving an existing paradigm, intentional or otherwise. The teachings of most credible traditions have great value (and generally converge). I agree with you regarding transcending our preconceived notions and conditioning and this is what I was referring to with respect to needing a path in the beginning. I agree with using cultivation in a "scientific" manner as well. My point is more that we need to critically evaluate any teachings we are subscribing to, investigate personally and thoroughly with an open mind, do the work for ourselves, and avoid getting too attached to and dependent on others' guidance. We even need to abandon our gurus at some point on our path. They can only take us so far. Accepting others' answers as our own because someone has declared them enlightened is a slippery slope. We need to do the work ourselves, critically evaluate what it is doing for our lives with an open mind, and take responsibility for our journey.

And clutching at straws Cherub faced, laughing children Slurp up their milkshakes

I have no doubt of that and I did not intend to imply that I think he is a fraud or to challenge his attainment. I was exploring the whole idea of spiritual authority. The very act of delegating authority to another in spiritual matters warrants careful consideration. Spirituality is the inner exploration. While most of us need a path of some sort for a time, once we accept an authority and adopt their answers as our own, we close ourselves off. I was curious as to who we are willing to accept as our spiritual authorities and whose definition of Enlightenment we are willing to adopt.

Welcome everyone. Thanks to Sean, we're going to start an online Book Club here on the Tao Bums forum. Sean has asked that I take a shot at moderating this forum. I'll do my best - I'm a virgin moderator so please be gentle! In an effort to make this a rewarding and balanced experience for everyone, we've decided to establish some basic guidelines. Please let me know if you have any problems or suggestions. I. New topics will only be created by the moderator. This is important in an effort to maintain organization and coherence. For now, all other new topics will be closed or moved to prevent confusion and distraction. Sean and I appreciate your cooperation on this point. II. I'll try to limit new topics to one of three varieties 1. Book Decision Topic - My intention is to ask for reading recommendations in this type of thread. Please make one suggestion and add a very brief description of why you think the book is appropriate. I would ask that suggested books have some relevance to what interests us here - Daoism Buddhism, Zen, Eastern Philosophy, Eastern History, Martial Arts, Cultivation, Meditation, and so on. Non-fiction will probably predominate but there's no reason why we can't explore works of fiction or poetry that lean in these directions. Assuming we achieve an easy consensus, we have our next selection. Otherwise, please see below. 2. Book Poll Topic - If we don't reach an easy consensus on a book selection, I will create a poll and we will select a book by vote. If we have a tie or some other stand off (or no suggestions), the moderator will make a decision. 3. Book Discussion Topic - This will be the general discussion thread for the book. I will try and limit this to a finite amount of time. I will also try and interject a bit of structure to the discussion to keep things on track, relevant, and mutually respectful. 4. I'll keep the very first topic, Book Club Anyone?, open for small talk. This is where to brainstorm, share what you're currently reading, general chit chat, and so on. Let's try and keep it separate from the selection, poll, and discussion threads for clarity, please. III. To begin, let's try one book per month. Here is more or less how I'll try to lay things out We start reading book A at the beginning of this month and select book B to be read next month. Next month we begin discussing A, begin reading B, and select C. And so it goes.... I'll leave book discussions open indefinitely as long as it doesn't get too distracting or confusing. Please remember to try and keep an open mind. This is intended to be a way to open us all up to new ideas and perspectives. My intention is to try and moderate this forum, including book selection in a fair and unbiased manner. I'm hoping we will find it valuable and fun. I'm always open to suggestions Thanks for your interest and participation, Steve

That's fine. Can you just be with that desire? See it for what it is? See how it is just like any other desire? Just another manifestation of the mind that wants to control it's environment. The whole idea of cycles and reincarnation and transcending and enlightenment. All of it is a creation of the mind. Once you see the essence of what the mind does, letting go may become easier. I wish you peace.

I think he is completely mistaken. Death is not only coming, it is all around us. Complete dissolution of physical being is blessed release. Sure the transition can be difficult and painful. That is natural. But death is nothing to fear. You can finally let go of all suffering, all expectations, all worldly concerns. It is not about sugar coating or denial. It is about letting go.

Or a first? Beautiful sentiment -K- Thanks for that.

Out of curiosity, who is the authority in this regard? No disrespect intended.

Respectfully, you are confusing jin (勁) and jing (精). 發勁 is what you are referring to. It is not fa jing, it is fa jin. Fa jin is NOT a misnomer. 勁 = jin can be translated as power or force. 精 = jing which is reproductive or generative potential or essence. 發 = fa and can be translated as issue, send out, or emit 發勁 or Fa jin simply means to issue force and practically speaking refers to explosive force generated over a short distance.