doc benway

There are a variety of reasonably well designed experiments that seem to imply the "free will" component of choice is more a recognition than intention. I don't believe in free will or the absence of free will. I'm open to the possibility of both. Through meditation and investigation I have come to the conclusion that the "I" that makes our choices and claims responsibility for being the generator of intent, the thinker of our thoughts, is just another thought. It seems to be tagged to be the "identity" thought, much like certain thoughts are tagged as "memory" and others tagged in other ways to help distinguish past, present, future, etc... This tagging process allows a memory to feel different than a "present" thought, helping to avoid confusion. It also seems to be responsible for the experience we call "deja vu" when a present thought is accidentally tagged as a memory. Nevertheless, "I" is just another thought. So whether it comes before or after the action is interesting to consider. If it comes before then how is it generated? Who or what is the "I" that generates the thought "I"? Well, that's a thought also.... What is the source of intention and choice? It leads us directly to the Vedanta method. And if it comes after then we are always in a state of Wu Wei, we just delude ourselves otherwise and everything is exactly as it should be and we cannot possibly cause it to be otherwise... And if you practice the Vedanta method for a while you just may find yourself reaching the same conclusion as the second case implies. Fun stuff to ponder on a day off... Or you can just tend your garden... that's fun too! And much more productive!!

And you know that I will always argue against this conclusion. You, and all of us, have a choice. But we also have the responsibility for the choices we make. (That's the hard part; accepting responsibility for our reactions, actions, intentions and thoughts.) Ever consider the possibility that the "I" that makes the choices comes after the fact?

If it was new to him, why claim that the sages condemn it? It sounded to me as if he had a very clear idea of what meditation is in his mind. Whether it is accurate and from a reliable source or simply from books is what I'm curious about.

I'm curious to hear what our friend told you that he considers meditation to be.

Sounds like very interesting practice. Thanks for the reply.

Some resources that helped me immensely in understanding and applying awareness - 1. Anthony Demello: Great book titled "Awareness" Even better - CD set titled "Wake Up to Life" - possible my single favorite resource. 2. Peter Fenner - Lots of stuff available but I am familiar only with a set of CD's called "Radiant Mind" 3. Jiddu Krishnamurti - reading through many of his works opened me up to being more aware of my personal responsibility and involvement in the activity of investigation. Also helped me to gain some insight into the role and nature of thought. He doesn't really emphasize awareness explicitly but it is implicit in all of his teachings. 4. The Advaita Vedanta teachers (Nisargadatta, Ramana) all help us to become more aware of who and what we are but it is an arduous process that requires patience and diligence. IMO, there is no practice or principle that is of more value than awareness. It is the foundation for everything else. Without awareness, there can be no understanding or insight. Enjoy!

Beautiful post on this important day! Thank you

It's beautiful to meet yourself for the first time. Enjoy my friend! Yes, everything changes. It may diminish, it may grow, it may change, it may get covered up by distractions, you may fall asleep again from time to time... but the good news is that it will never leave you. It will always be there when you need it. Because it is you. Your original face. Welcome.

Not necessarily can't but rather don't I've been listening to some beautiful lectures by John O'Donohue and have mentioned him a few times in a variety of threads. I'm currently listening to some discussion of contradictions and how valuable they can be in our lives and how unfortunate it is that many of us have adopted the decidely Western mindset of contradiction meaning something is wrong or incorrect - that one side of the contradiction must be correct and the other incorrect. I think this comes from one of the early Greek philosophers but I'm not certain of that. Here's a quote that I posted elsewhere - I like it so much that I tried to commit it to memory. Sorry to repeat it but if nothing else, it helps me remember it! "And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discovery a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." John O'Donohue

It was definitely not my intention to say in the post you quoted that one should not have intent. In fact, I was pointing up and challenging what I read as Mark Foote's comment that one could/should act without intent. As I mentioned earlier I think intent is a natural manifestation that is a part of the nature of consciousness. And it's quite tricky to peel away the layers of intent particularly as we get to the deeper, hidden, and more subtle layers of ourselves. That said, I do think it is possible to act without intent and I also think that it is not possible to act without intent... How do you like them apples?

Be careful here. What about the intention to act without intent? In choosing to follow Wu Wei, are you not already discriminating? And if it required impeccability to maintain that, are you already struggling against something?

I agree with what I hear your teacher saying. There is no difference between the "martial" and "philosophical" understanding as described by his senior student. "always reacting in an appropriate way to the situation" means skillful application of intent. "action without awareness of an actor" means to open oneself to one's true nature, to be fully aware. That is the link. To react skillfully requires that awareness and awareness requires skill. The two are interdependent. The actor is confusion, the conditioning, the sleeper. Awareness is the clarity, the light that dissipates the confusion, illuminates the conditioning, and wakes the sleeper.

I still disagree - I don't think it's that simple. Humans have intent, animals have intent. Intent is a natural manifestation of Dao. I do not see Wu Wei as figuring out a way to do away with intent - suppressing or ignoring it. It is our nature to have and use intention. In fact, Daoist methods develop intent to a very high level. Rather, it is about skillful application of intent. Having a deep awareness of who and what we are and allowing this to be the flowering of intent. Finding how and where our intention aligns with our nature rather than struggles against it. As opposed to the misguided intent that results from confusion and blindness when we live our lives asleep. It is very confusing to try and figure out what we are because we are so far removed from nature and our connection to her. This is why I liked Wayfarer's post so much - he seems to be working skillfully with intent, not against it. Trying to suppress or ignore it is as much opposed to Dao as misusing it. We must find our connection with Dao through opening fully to our nature and potential, not fighting against or denying it. Just my opinion.

I might but Zhuang Zi would not... THE EMPTY BOAT He who rules men lives in confusion; He who is ruled by men lives in sorrow. Yao therefore desired Neither to influence others Nor to be influenced by them. The way to get clear of confusion And free of sorrow Is to live with Tao In the land of the great Void. If a man is crossing a river And an empty boat collides with his own skiff, Even though he be a bad-tempered man He will not become very angry. But if he sees a man in the boat, He will shout at him to steer clear. If the shout is not heard, he will shout again, And yet again, and begin cursing. And all because there is somebody in the boat. Yet if the boat were empty. He would not be shouting, and not angry. If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you. The straight tree is the first to be cut down, The spring of clear water is the first to be drained dry. If you wish to improve your wisdom And shame the ignorant, To cultivate your character And outshine others; A light will shine around you As if you had swallowed the sun and the moon: You will not avoid calamity. A wise man has said: "He who is content with himself Has done a worthless work. Achievement is the beginning of failure. Fame is beginning of disgrace." Who can free himself from achievement And from fame, descend and be lost Amid the masses of men? He will flow like Tao, unseen, He will go about like Life itself With no name and no home. Simple is he, without distinction. To all appearances he is a fool. His steps leave no trace. He has no power. He achieves nothing, has no reputation. Since he judges no one No one judges him. Such is the perfect man: His boat is empty. - Zhuang Zi -

I do appreciate you taking the time to reply so thoroughly. I don't quite have the patience to address each point. Suffice it to say that I disagree with your interpretation. The Empty Boat parable of Zhuang Zi (among others) clearly says to me that human beings are a manifestation and agent of natural action just as a thunderstorm or flood. So if a boulder rolls off a mountaintop and blocks a stream due to an earthquake, or that same boulder is pushed off accidentally by someone who stumbles, or if a person pushes it intentionally, what is the difference? Does the stream or boulder care or discriminate? I do not see myself as separate from nature in the same way that you do. I'm not stating this in an authoritative way. I'm not judging who is right or wrong. Just sharing my perspective to (presumptuously, perhaps) stimulate some deeper consideration of the topic.

No system required - "If you want to find a point of departure for your new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a contradiction within yourself and stay faithful to the aura and presence of that contradiction. Hold the two sides gently within your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you." - John O'Donohue

I find it curious how we tend to think that removing the "I" or the Yi part of the equation is more in line with Dao/universal Qi/whatever you want to call it than when the "I" is operational. Despite the fact that the "I" is a natural part of the human experience, albeit heavily conditioned. This is a very common theme in Daoism and Buddhism and Non-Duality. And at the same time those traditions acknowledge that once you make the mountain go away you come back to it in the end. And I don't mean to imply that any of that is incorrect or that I have any answers. But I have been thinking lately about why is it that I think that I am any closer to Dao when "I" is not there. "I" is not "other" than Dao in the first place so why is it any more natural when it is not there? So I just wanted to put that out there. I think the relationship between the thought that calls itself "I" and the unconditioned awareness from which it arises is a fascinating one that is worth some time and attention.

Sorry, can't help there. That's beyond my pay grade. I'm probably the least tech savvy mod on the team. Hopefully one of the other mods or members will chime in.

This is the key - if we understood, it would be less intriguing, less inspiring. The mystery is delicious, the answers are meaningless - rationalizations, associations, projections... Indulge yourself in the mystery!

Funny - this one doesn't do it for me at all! No slight to you Mark, I'm just a bit dense and concrete...

Just turned on to this and I kind of like it...

Good suggestion Old Green. One thing you can do is copy the url's of threads you like and paste them into your "notes" application under Settings -> Manage Notes. You could then share the ones you like with others. I also like your idea of a quick link to "top threads" but not sure how that could be worked out given how subjective that is. The mod team is certainly open to suggestions about that.

1. A zafu/zabuton combo that is one piece, perhaps velcro connected that gives buttock support and padding under the feet to sit Burmese/Lotus. Fairly dense filling material important for the zabuton portion 2. A folding bench with adjustable legs to accomodate sitting with the knees and hips at right angles - include integral or optional seat cushion

I think this is intimately related to Wu Wei.

Thread moved - thanks for bringing that to our attention.