doc benway

~~~~Mod Message~~~~~ Thread moved from Taoist to General Discussion as requested This appears to be the most appropriate forum for this thread Enjoy ~~~~Mod Out~~~~~~~~~

A friend of mine recently suggested I check out John O'Donohue so I decided to pick up a collection of talks called Wisdom of the Celtic World. I admit that I am new to Celtic spirituality and find it marvelous, at least as seen through O'Donohue's eyes. Anyone uncomfortable with words like God, prayer, angels, and divine may be turned off but to pass this over due to semantics or ideology would be a mistake. His talks are full of poetry and wonder and he describes Wu Wei (among other things) in a unique and insightful way that I don't know I've ever seen presented more clearly. He died suddenly and very young in 2008. I'm sorry it took me so long to find him.

This one's for Mal... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm_gNFdijI8

To state, "First there is a mountain" implies that one is in ignorance,...that they believe the dream is real. In meditation, if properly done, "there is no mountain." However, to truly understand the emptiness of the mountain, is to understand the form of the mountain. Enlightenment is not realizing the mountain existed as form or emptiness,...but that it never existed. Enlightenment is simply a awareness of the Present. No mountain ever existed in the Present. There is no Present in time. V To quote Nisargadatta With wisdom I see that I am nothing With love I see I am everything My life dances in between the two

Beautiful post.

Many scholars believe that there was no single individual responsible for Dao De Jing, that is - no "Lao Zi", let alone that the same individual responsible for Dao De Jing is responsible for Hua Hu Ching, which was a verbal transmission. Though they do appear to arise from the same general tradition. Much like the debates about "who wrote the bible?" "was there a man named Jesus?" "what exactly did and didn't Buddha say?" and so forth, I'm not too concerned with trying to know the unknowable. What counts for me is what is in the teachings. What are they telling me? Are they helping me to lead a more enriching life? Are they helping me to help others to lead a more enriching life? And so on... I haven't spent enough time with the Hua Hu Ching to give a meaningful opinion on it's value to me, and even if I did - that wouldn't mean that you would or should agree with me. I guess I'd like to hear what you think about it also.

I agree with you. I have a training partner and sharing our experiences (in martial arts, meditation, and basically life) have brought us very close together and enhanced both of our experiences. As you mention in your next post, this is at the root of the tendency for religious congregation. But, as in religious congregation, the effect is not always positive. A lot depends on personal responsibility and perspective, I think.

The last two posts are excellent and also raise a question I ponder... So the trees and animals have no trouble just being. People seems to struggle to just "be" - whatever that means... So what makes us different? This tends to bring us to looking at the characteristics of human thought and how that may differ fundamentally from how other species think. Watts refers to the feedback loop effect of self-awareness as the difference and the source of problems. So then the question is something like this (I struggle to verbalize it) - If we have the capacity of analytical thought, is it "natural" or "wu wei" to attempt to be like the animals that do not? Doesn't this represent trying to go against our nature rather than with it? Certainly there is something to "just being" but it seems to me that there is an opportunity to also integrate our gift of thought into that. This is analogous to Twinner's recent thread on being "like a child" - we want to recapture child-like innocence, freshness, and spontaneity, but not give up our adult experience, wisdom, and insight... So I tend to think that it is not so simple, this idea of wu wei. But I do agree with the above posters when they point to the importance of awareness and openness to being. That has to be a doorway to understanding our "nature" and then perhaps we can "not go against" that nature...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Message This stops here This topic has been split If the two of you want to call each other names and argue please do it in the Pit where it belongs If either of you post again here in such a fashion you will be suspended Thanks for your cooperation Mod Out ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Moderation in all things, perhaps. And real spontaneity only comes from the sensitivity and awareness that arises from the quiet inside. And this is a place we can reside even in our mundane, daily existence where everyone thinks they have us figured out. Enjoy your practice!

Yes, a wonderful example of what -K- was recently discussing about meaning beyond the words. I'm confident that don_vedo's beautiful posts were an inspiration to at least one or two of us and nothing can stop that. One can never dispel the darkness through violence or assault, verbal or otherwise. One simply opens the window and allows the light to enter and there is no longer any foothold for darkness.

Nice thoughts - >> ... can words even express a feeling?<<< I am often one to argue - no, words are never the thing, they are just a way of communicating, defining, approximating. But I've recently been listening to some really beautiful words... Poetry can express a feeling, poetry is not the thing but is a wonderful indicator. Yes, it is a wonderful way to live - with spontaneity, with awareness, being full in every moment, pressure never needed because there are no walls, no restriction, only openness, awareness, presence... and absence. When I define myself by my skin and my thoughts, there is enormous pressure, resistance, rigidity. But when the skin dissolves and I occupy everything I see, feel, hear, touch, think, and beyond - then there is a vast open space, a wildness, a spontaneity, and naturalness. Heretic - absolutely, also - mystic.

Don't be too distracted by instructions and don't be too quick to judge or dismiss them. Just stand. In your standing, see if you can feel a roundness to the back without any physical movement. See if you can feel a hollowness to the chest without moving. Feel the suspension of the bai hui and an openness (I like that word better than looseness) in the kua, etc... In the beginning, we often exaggerate postures by trying to force our physical body to fit an image we have. If we do this then the instructions can cause incorrect posture. Instead, allow the instructions to guide you in subtle ways, from the inside out, from the energetic body moving outward to eventually being expressed in very subtle physical adjustments. This takes a long time - weeks, months, years. It requires a great deal of sensitivity and awareness. Until you feel the energetic body and come to trust in it, you will feel uncertain. Let that uncertainty foster a spirit of investigation and exploration - internally. This only comes with patience and diligence. The inner landscape is subtle and extensive. It won't happen quickly, no matter how good your instruction. Good luck!

Nice selection - Immortal Technique has got the goods.

That's simply a matter of how choose to define (limit, create boundaries around, reify) Nature... I agree with your conceptualization of Yin and Yang. Not looking for answers actually, answers are dead. Questions are alive.

Or maybe it is not meant to be understood?

I find this an interesting area to consider, these are the words that are often used to describe Wu Wei but I'm not sure that they tell me much. I don't intend to be critical CD, I think it's worth looking at these things and how they apply to us personally. How is it that Nature can not take it's course? How can I let or not let Nature take its course? How is it that I can do something to "cause Nature to go off its course"? Am I something other than Nature? If so, where is the line? How do I know when Nature/I are on and off course? If I attempt to "right" that course, am I not interfering? Rhetorical questions that help me feel it, I don't have answers... Some characteristics of Nature: Wild - Nature cannot be tamed, categorized, or restrained Spontaneous - Nature is "of itself so" / ZiRan / Alan Watts quotes Suzuki Sensei as comparing Zen to "dropping a fart" - one doesn't plan it, it happens as it happens Unpredictable - Nature is full of asymmetry and irregularity Relentless - Nature always continues on, moving forward while standing still, life comes and goes and is always there Aware - There is a luminosity, a spark, life, something that completely defies description So maybe when I manifest similar characteristics I'm reflecting Nature in me. So I look at Wu Wei starting from an internal place. For me it's about: Spontaneity Awareness Acceptance Creativity Relationship An area where I think we "interfere with nature" is when we come into conflict with ourselves and what is around us. When our expectations are inconsistent with reality there is interference. Words like should, hope, wish, and want When we can drop our expectations and come to feel our wholeness in each moment there is acceptance and there is no interference. When our choices are inconsistent with our values, there is interference. Much behavior is automated and conditioned. We live most of our lives asleep and the choices we make in our sleep often lead us to places we don't want to be as a consequence. If we can be aware of our core values and make choices that allow us to live in accordance with those values, there is concordance. I don't really get it yet but Wu Wei is definitely one of my favorite topics to work with.

I recommend to allow the entire foot to feel it's contact with the ground evenly distributed from heel to toes. Over time the energetic structure becomes more familiar and you may come to feel that "weight" is relatively meaningless with respect to energetic points. Just my $.02

Nice intro Jamyang. Welcome!

~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Message I've moved the "continuation" thread and merged it with the original. If you continue this Informer, I will suspend you. Mod Out ~~~~~~~~~~~

It is my business because I volunteered to moderate. I stand behind my decision. This is a political debate, not spiritual discussion. It should stay in Off Topic, in my opinion. If the other mods disagree, they are welcome to take additional action.

This is not a case for punitive action so you are comparing apples to oranges. You reported Hundun and Seth for being "trolling new members." I disagreed that they were trolling and I determined that there was no need for punitive action. I also pointed out to you that you were mistaken about them being new members. The personal messages you posted publicly were my attempt to explain my decision not to take punitive action. Rest assured, I will not bother in the future. This case is a simple matter of moving heated political discussions that have absolutely nothing to do with spiritual practice to a more appropriate venue. There is nothing to prevent continued debate if you are so inclined. If you disagree with my action you are welcome to appeal to the mod team or Sean.

It certainly is. In the context of spirituality, the health of the planet is a topic that would be reasonable in General Discussion. In the context of a an argumentative political debate on the veracity of global warming and climate change, it belongs in Off Topic.

You are welcome to submit your own report or to appeal to the other mods or Sean regarding my decision. When a report is submitted, a mod or mods will review it's validity and act as they feel is appropriate. After review, it was my decision that the Kyoto Protocol thread had little or nothing to do with spiritual practice and was more suitable in Off Topic. The thread is still open to discussion in the Off Topic area.

"Eclectic discussion across a wide range of spiritual thought and practice. As long as you are up for a good time and remain respectful, you're welcome to discuss your path."