doc benway

~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Message Explanations have been posted in both threads Mod Out ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Message I decided to move this thread to Off Topic because it is simply political debate and discussion and unrelated to cultivation and spirituality and, as political discussion tends to be, it's been the source of multiple reports. Political discussion is welcome but should be in the Off Topic section. Mod Out ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Message Informer - This forum is not monitored 24/7 so you may want to give us more than and hour or two before making accusations and smart-ass remarks. A report was made suggesting that the Kyoto Protocol thread had become nothing more than a political debate. After reviewing the thread, I agree that it has little or nothing to do with cultivation or spirituality and moved it to Off Topic. I did the same with the Global Revolution thread. Both topics are primarily political arguments and have been the source of multiple reports. My action has nothing to do with supporting one side or the other, it's to put political debate where it belongs - Off Topic. Sort of like I am moving this thread to where it belongs... Mod Out ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are some pretty compelling reasons for not sharing your meditative experiences. My teacher told me in the beginning not to discuss my experiences with my fellow students. After I gained more experience he actually suggested that I being to talk to other students. The major reason seems to be that discussing your experiences with others will shape and color their expectations. The things we experience in meditation can very easily be influenced by our expectations and desires. We desire to advance in meditation. So if I read somewhere that I should see a gold light, my mind will keep looking for the gold light until it finds it. And if i am creating experience based on expectation, the validity and credibility of what I'm experiencing may be altered and may actually create an enormous obstacle. Each of us will have a unique experience of the meditative process, even if we are practicing the exact same methods. The characteristics of our experience are based in large part on our life experience, our background, and so on. The most important aspect of meditation is to allow the superficial, day to day mind to become more tranquil and to access deeper levels of awareness in the mind, body, and spirit. The way for that to occur is through observing and being aware of the mind's activity. If we give each other prompts and clues and expectations we will be much more likely to distract and confuse than to assist each other. Similarly, my meditative practice involves developing a certain type and depth of awareness. The way I will experience this is completely unique to me. The process by which I experience it is also unique and that process is something that needs to be developed. If I am following or being influenced (even at very subtle levels) by the experiences of others, this may shortcut the process entirely. So once I reach a point that is beyond what I can learn from others, I have not developed the process and I'm stuck. I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here because this stuff is tough to talk about but there you have it. When it comes to sharing methods, this is much more problematic. Meditative practices (particularly Daoist methods) can be quite dangerous to susceptible people. If we don't have adequate experience and guidance ourselves, it is a big mistake to show others such techniques. At best, we are showing them something inexpertly and often incorrectly. At worst, we could cause people significant harm if they misuse the methods or share them irresponsibly with others. So I can see real reasons why it's best to keep a lot of this stuff secret.

This song and this performer knock me out - It's a plea for compassion and social responsibility.

Some of the reasons why we keep traditions secret may be a secret! One question I have for the OP - are you referring to keeping the practice methods secret? Or are you referring to keeping your experiences which occur during such practice a secret? These are two very different questions.

I'll debate these points with you. The Dao is not complicated, it is simplicity in and of itself. It is 自然. It is only the brain that projects complication because it cannot understand it. That is because the Dao is outside of understanding, it can't be captured by our rational brain. And yet you "think" that you have the answer... Like you said, one cannot achieve it, not even the sages and immortals, because it is not an achievement, it is 自然. If you "convinced" yourself that "active meditation is not the true Dao" who is doing the convincing? And doesn't that mean there is an intention behind your actions? There is no best practice method because Dao exists 自然 - independent of practice. Practices can help people to explore aspects of themselves they might otherwise neglect. And being an authentic human (自然) involves being aware of oneself (and everything around oneself) at a very deep and accurate level - in my opinion.

And what if your intention is to follow Dao? That seems to be the case with you. I'm not sure that I agree that intention is beyond the natural way of Dao. I'm not so sure it's that simple. Intention means a determination to act in a certain way. Humans have the natural capacity to think and make decisions. Is it Zi Ran 自然 to fight against using that capacity? Is that being authentic? I think that is an attempt to be something other than what we are. It's easy to "think" that we understand what the sages were saying by "choosing" not to make choices, by "intending" not to use our intention, by using other thinking mind to try and "understand" something the sages (and you) tell us is beyond understanding. But I think that is fooling ourselves in a way. Having the tool of the thinking mind and choice is part of what makes us human. Some people confuse Wu Wei with not acting, not making choices. I disagree. I think it has more to do with being in touch with what we truly are as humans and not interfering with that by trying to be something we are not.

One thing that I think about sometimes is how we know that the intention of the person is NOT the intention of the universe/Dao? If my intention is not that of Dao, what is it? If my intention is not that of Dao, that would mean that I am NOT a manifestation of Dao... Who is it that decides which intention is or is not consistent with Dao? I suspect the answer will be to follow what the sages said but I tend to eschew authority...

And this is true meditation in the way I define it. So we are in agreement. And if we practice meditative exercises are we farther from realization of and confluence with Dao or closer? And if such exercises help our minds to be tranquil and let go of the distractions of social life, is that taking us farther from or closer to manifestation of Dao? When we are not practicing meditative exercises and wrapped up in our daily lives - work and family worries, and so on, are we closer to manifesting Dao or farther? When things are quiet and nothing needs doing, we often feel uncomfortable. Our natural tendency as conditioned members of society is to be a slave to the thinking mind, to always be doing something, becoming something, gaining something, avoiding something, or achieving something. These patterns seem to be what distracts us from being what we are - a manifestation of Dao, an authentic human being. And at the same time, these patterns ARE what we are. Although I'll allow that they can be considered artificial patterns of conditioning imposed by generations of socialization. Meditative exercises can help people to become more comfortable with not doing, not becoming, and just being. In so far as they achieve this, then I believe your initial post is inaccurate. Although we need to be careful that meditation does not become just another doing, an attempt to become something other than what we are. Because if meditation is about gaining something or becoming something other than what we are, then I believe your initial post is accurate. And I acknowledge that what I just wrote is somewhat paradoxical, and that is the nature of meditation as I see it. I've begun to sit at the front door of my house from time to time, with the door open, with my dog sitting along with me, just being. We watch what passes by our field of vision, are aware of each other and ourselves, and there is nothing to be done. It's wonderful.

+1 Nothing more important than this. I've dealt with back pain for many years. Two things helped - 1. Hamstring stretches every day - get them loose enough to easily put your palms on the floor. Depending on how flexible you are this could take a long time. Don't rush it but be persistent. 2. Understanding the relationship between back pain and emotional stress. Most chronic back pain is a reflection of repressed emotion (anger, rage, frustration, etc...). The work of Dr. John Sarno really helped me and several friends. Good luck

Thanks for posting this. It is a real threat. A few years ago I would have chuckled and said, no way! Now, with the current trend of restriction of freedom in the US, I'm not as confident.

I agree with you that our interpretation is every bit as important as the sender's intent. The "truth" lies somewhere in the middle I guess. And while it is valuable to observe the behavior of others it is even more important to watch ourselves. Why am I participating in this forum? this discussion? Why am I compelled to see how others have responded to something I posted? what does that tell me about ME? And so on - I've come to use this forum more as a tool to learn about myself than as a method to learn about Daoism or practices or whatever else...

Just yesterday I had a long conversation with a friend about communication. We were specifically discussing words vs. content. When we communicate, there are always multiple levels occurring. And we are able to perceive and respond on multiple levels simultaneously, and much of that is subconscious. Mirror neuron activity is a good example of that. Similarly, there was some recent discussion about standing waves and awareness - standing waves that arise as a result of local neuronal activity may be an explanation for individual consciousness and thought. And why couldn't such standing waves develop among a group of individuals and so forth... But then when we bring that to the internet forum, we are left with nothing but typed words, avatars, smileys, links, and so the extraction of meaning is much more challenging. But I agree with you -K- that there is always much going on behind the words. I think that some of us are more sensitive to that than others. In fact, it can become a problem for some. There are definitely folks that are so sensitive to the subtext, that the words themselves are secondary and often meaningless, especially when the words and the subtext are contradictory. And this is where our discussion started. In social interaction, there is an enormously complex web of social agreements and conventions. And these are in place exactly to allow us to present a mask when we interact with each other, while hiding potentially embarrassing, harmful, or threatening feelings and thoughts. In fact, the word "person" comes from "persona" - the Latin word for the mask used in a theatrical play. Some people are so sensitive to the sub-text, that the contradictory words lead to serious confusion which in turn leads to social anxiety. In fact, my friend is one and one of my children is this way as well. To some degree, I believe this to be hard wired into some individuals. I also think that one can learn to read sub-text by opening up to the more subtle forms of communication - body language, facial expressions, and so on. And we can also get into all kinds of energetic forms of communication but I'm going to avoid going down that path simply because I'd rather stay on footing where everyone can relate. So I agree -K- that there is always a message behind the words. In fact, a big part of my job involves reading between the lines and getting to know someone beyond what they are willing or able to volunteer. And as Marbles said earlier, he carefully chooses his words (as do I) and that in and of itself tells us a lot about him, his character, his values. And there are others who type stream of thought, and that is revealing. And so on. And then there are the mis-spellings, intentional or otherwise, the volume of posts, the jokesters, etc... And the nastiness and cruelty that comes out both explicitly and implicitly. And it's also interesting to notice what is left unsaid - this can be revealing. It's also really interesting to look at how people respond under stress - do they lose control, do they quit, do they take a deep breath and respond dispassionately, and so on. And it's wonderful to look at someone's style of posting and compare it to a year ago and see what's similar (a sign of their nature) and what's different ( a sign of their mood and progress). And I'm no expert on this but I do find it fascinating and important to recognize and consider in our communication. Great thread!

To be clear, I also want to mention that I don't mean to say that you cannot learn anything from books. What is important is that you practice. Books can be a very valuable resource and source of information. But what counts is what we do with that information. If we allow the brain to tell itself that "I understand what the author is stating here therefore I understand meditation" that is a disservice. It's like Qigong. If I read books about Qigong and thoroughly understand the theory and principles and memorize different movements and postures and breathing patterns I may consider myself to be an authority in Qigong. And I could even write a book about it and have others consider me an authority. And I would have derived absolutely no health or energetic benefits of any sort from that because I've never practiced Qigong. Meditation is just like that. That's really what I'm trying to say.

It's very inexpensive to learn meditation from a good teacher. Visit just about any sangha of any kind and you can learn. There are also some nice audio presentations (Peter Fenner's is one is really admire). The rest is up to you. Daoist meditation is another thing altogether. Traditionally, it has been difficult to be accepted by a credible teacher and, once accepted, you either need to pay a lot of money or you need to dedicate your life to him as his disciple. It was not so casual as it is here in the West today and even in China, the majority of the people who are teaching today lack credibility. Much of the good stuff was driven out of the country, deep underground, or into the grave by the cultural revolution.

It's cool. You have your books, I have my teacher and my practice. We are both happy. Be well.

It's not about guilt or innocence. You made erroneous statements such as Tao meditation is about breathing and Zen is thinking about Buddhist philosophy. If you read that in books then either the books are wrong or you are misunderstanding. And there are many others examples in this thread alone which betray a lack of understanding of meditation. This is because it really doesn't matter what books are being read - it cannot be captured in words. It is not even about understanding - it cannot be grasped by the mind. It does matter who we learn from, one cannot teach what one has no experience with. And mostly it is about 打坐 And that is fine also, you do not need to meditate if you choose not to. But in fact, you are guilty of making dogmatic statements about meditation that are blatantly wrong and claim that we in the West simply misunderstand or were taught incorrectly. When you admittedly have had no formal meditation instruction or practice. Some of us have been blessed with good teachers who have immigrated from China. And you are welcome to dismiss our information out of hand because we are not Chinese but we will continue to try and help those interested in learning to learn properly.

I've already addressed this in the past - my teacher is Chinese. I do listen to him very closely and it is not painful at all. One of the principles that he stresses over all others is to practice rather than read... I would be happy to learn from you but you are not experienced in Daoist (or Zen) meditation, you are quoting from books. The truth is not to be found in books but in life.

You are too funny! I do enjoy our exchanges... We can only learn something new by first emptying our cup... Your cup runneth over my friend. If you are so firmly rooted in your ideas gleaned from books, why bother asking questions? Is it really that painful to think you might actually learn something from the 鬼佬? Be well...

Hi Noelle, When I had my first experience of knowing that I was understanding Qi, the best way I could describe it is that it felt somewhat like the feeling of sexual stimulation. Not that I was turned on sexually by the experience but that is the closest thing "Qi" feels like for me, comparatively. It started for me in the Hui Yin area which is sort of near the prostate gland. It was very, very subtle at first but when I realized what was happening it became very powerful as my awareness and sensitivity developed. This is the area where men are often most successful at feeling it because it is a very concentrated area for the Jing (reproductive potential and essence, often equated with semen in men but that is an oversimplification in the Western paradigm). As Drew mentioned, women generally are more successful in the beginning by focusing on the heart region. Years ago I spent some time speaking about this with Livia Kohn and she also recommended that women focus more on the heart rather than the lower Dan Tian or other points in the pelvic region. Rather than think of it in cultivation terms, it may be helpful to think of it in more familiar terms - receptiveness, openness, love. So you may try bringing your attention to the area of your heart (not the anatomic heart but between your breasts and inside the center of your sternum and just allow your awareness to rest there. Allow yourself to become tranquil. Allow the thoughts to come and go as they will and just return your attention to this area for a while. Over time, see if there arises a feeling there. It is beyond description. It is beyond words like warm, cool, tingly, electric but different people use different words of that nature. It might feel like love or it might feel like happiness or fulfillment. It can take a lot of different forms. Like Mila says, there are different forms of Qi, and the experience and perception of Qi varies accordingly. One thing that became clear to me with practice is that the way Qi is often described is misleading. I do not look at Qi as being something quantifiable or something separate from myself. When people talk about "having QI" or "storing Qi" or "building Qi", that can be misleading. I experience Qi more as an interaction or a process. It seems to be intimately connected with the interaction of awareness and "substance". For me Qi is always already there and what is happening is that my experience of "building" or "storing" Qi is more a function of becoming more sensitive to the Qi that always already exists in everything. I feel more like an antenna than a receptacle. This is partly due to the "fact" that there is no real boundary between self and other. The skin is certainly no barrier to Qi so how can "I" store Qi? In fact, what is "I" other than the thought that claims responsibility for being the thinker? It's really nothing more than a witness. Certainly, as an organism becomes healthier and more robust, there is the potential for "greater" or "more" Qi. And as I practice methods like Qigong, Taijiquan, and Daoist cultivation, my physical, emotional, psychological, and spiritual health and well being improves so not only am I becoming more sensitive but "my Qi" is becoming healthier and more robust. For me there is Jing, which relates to our corporeality, our physical "existence", our reproductive potential. And there is Shen, which relates to awareness, spirituality, sensitivity, love, intelligence. And the interaction between the two is where Qi arises. But this is just my own developing understanding based solely on my own practice. I am no authority and I'm not well versed in the Chinese literature like some of our members. Sorry to get all metaphysical on you but I do get carried away sometimes.... Good luck in your developing practice. It's a wonderful world to explore!

No offense taken! You are nothing if not sincere my friend. Sorry to disappoint but I don't teach meditation. I just talk too much....

One cannot believe if one is not first familiar... If you spend your early life exposed to a certain paradigm, you are highly likely to accept and believe in that paradigm. Even if you let the "belief" go at some point, it is inside of your own way of perceiving the world at deep levels and can be difficult to fully purge.

Just as the mind can set up subconscious resistance, it can also set up subconscious healing. When a patient believes a treatment is going to help, they are much more likely to experience success. The healing effect of the mind is very powerful. A slightly off topic but related question - When we meditate (or practice qigong, yoga, etc...), is the mind perceiving the internal experience or creating it? To flesh this point out further - Does someone from India have an energetic structure that is different from someone from China? If two Westerners practice different methods, one yoga and one Daoist, does their energetic body differ?

"The first peace, which is the most important, is that which comes within the souls of people when they realize their relationship, their oneness, with the universe and all its powers, and when they realize that at the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit, and that this center is really everywhere, it is within each of us." - Black Elk - Oglala Sioux