doc benway

Don't mind the buddhist brigade. They mean well (well, some of them anyway). I like your contributions and I hope you don't go too far. The mind wants really badly to convince itself that it "understands." Then it can feel more secure. Buddhism is a wonderfully scientific way of convincing oneself that one understands. And if it works for you, wonderful. And if it doesn't, wonderful. Because it makes absolutely no difference... The guys and gals that portray to us, and themselves, that they have understanding are still here, just like the rest of us who are in the dark, typing on a keyboard. We're all the same. The irony is that each of us is deeply wrapped in our warm cloaks of "understanding" whilst pointing out the failings of each others' garments... It's like arguing over the shape and texture of the color purple, while trying to eat a menu. And I will make the point that: there are experiences had in relationship with 'source' that can not be explained by Buddhism - period... The theistic or intelligent universe framework simply substitutes different thoughts and concepts. It is still an artificial, illusory, and inadequate verbal and conceptual representation of something that transcends explanation and understanding. And I don't mean to say that pursuing a more theistic view is any more or less valuable or desirable than Buddhism. They're all the same, more or less. Different fingers pointing at the moon. Just be careful not to use those fingers to put out your (or someone else's) eye ... There is no question about the fact that the universe is intelligent ... we are manifesting that right here and now (well, a few nanoseconds ago... a few nanoseconds ago.... a few nanoseconds ago, anyway). And it is quite stupid as well.... (I'm here!) The important thing is to enjoy the journey, and for me at least, to do what I can to help others enjoy their's as well... Live long and prosper, Set

I haven't always thought that way but have now for a very long time. If divine energy is what religionists claim it to be, we cannot be separate from it. It is always already there. It is us. It is our consciousness, our radiance. It is never absent, we are just distracted by our minds. That is why the mystics tell us that we cannot ever speak about what it is, only what it is not. We cannot add anything, anything we add leads to distraction and suffering. We can only take away - our concepts, our ideas, our attachments, our programming. When we let everything drop away, what is left is reality. I will respectfully disagree with your first statement but not necessarily with the rest of it. Methods and paths can be beneficial to some but if you look at the number of people subscribing to devotional practices and the numbers who successfully transcend suffering over the long term as a consequence, I don't think these practices have such a great track record. Certainly no worse than many other practices, most of which reinforce attachments and confusion. However, it is also clear to see that devotional practices can be simply a different type of conditioning and easily exploited at an individual and institutional level.

Thunder rumbles in the distance... _/\_

Please do not take "my" answers above as dogmatic or even correct, they are only my biased opinions at this moment and I make no claims of authority. Very nice line of inquiry, ATMA.

Few institutions in the history of humanity have been more effective and ruthless when it comes to accumulating wealth at the expense of the underprivileged than the Roman Catholic Church. And even fewer institutions have the wealth of the church. Imagine the impact the pope could have if he chose to act rather than speak.

So a number of things have come together to lead me to start this thread. I don't know if it's worth anyones' time (including my own) but I don't start many threads and this idea is bouncing around in my head. I was stimulated by a few things - Lifeforce's thread on non duality and Drew's post in it about standing waves and perception. A reference to Michael Talbot's The Holographic Universe. Informer's thread on the Kyoto protocol and the general idea of the earth's ecological suffering. A discussion I had on Sunday with my good friend and training partner, Jeremy, who's a member here but rarely if ever gets involved. Listening to the brilliant Anthony DeMello and his thoughts about pain and suffering. The idea of a standing wave arising from the electrical and neurological activity of the human brain as a representation of the "ground substance" of awareness or consciousness implies the possibility that this same phenomenon could exist at multiple levels of existence - the cellular level, the organism level, the tribal level, the species specific level, the Earth level, and beyond... Perhaps at each (or some) of these levels, there arises a waveform of some sort that represents or embodies some level of wholeness, awareness, oneness, or whatever. Now, DeMello (among others) points out the very valuable and insightful fact that 'pleasant experiences make life delightful whereas painful experiences are our opportunities for growth.' If you look at this closely, it is completely obvious and true. It is a principle of Taijiquan training (invest in loss). No one grows as a result of winning or pleasing experiences. Psychological and emotional pain and suffering point out areas where we have the potential to grow. Just like physical pain points out illness that can be addressed with medical or other methods of care. So if we put these two together, we can look at our current ecological and environmental concerns as a macrocosm of human suffering. The Earth's challenges which result from humanity's exploitation and abuse, can be seen as a form of suffering on a planetary level. All lifeforms and possibly even the planet's health is affected by our choices. So rather than look at this as a completely negative experience, we can also look at this as an opportunity for the Earth and for our race to grow. If we do not find a way to alter our trajectory or mitigate it's effects on our planet, the Earth herself may will find a way to use this opportunity to grow. And that may include or exclude us, just as we have found ways to deal with cancer and other threats to our health and well being. Anyhow, just some thoughts bouncing around in my head that I wanted to share... Peace

Nicely put. Intellect wants to capture 'what is' in a neat little package it can "understand." Where there is understanding, there is the illusion of control and security. But security does not exist. The greatest security is in the acceptance that there is no security. Then we can simply be open to what is real, rather than what thought constructs to represent it. When this occurs, who this occurs to, Buddhist dogma, descriptions of light, ,... words and constructs of intellect. When these arise there is already separation, duality. Where there is no separation, there is love. It's not an idea or concept to be analyzed or verbalized. It is contact with reality. Then there is effortless compassion. And where there is compassion there is never unnecessary cruelty. Compassion can be harsh but never cruel, painful but never abusive. Non-duality is the absence of separation, the absence of definition, boundaries. To define it implies separation, limits, restriction, exclusion. We can't say what it is, only what it is not. All of the mystics "understand" this - Thomas Equinas - the highest knowledge of God is to know that we do not know Lao Zi - The eternal Dao cannot be spoken (or conceptualized) Buddha - the thunderous silence Jewish - God's name cannot be spoken Advaita Vedanta - Neti Neti ... and so on...

I've forwarded your request to sean as well. Thanks for your patience.

Looking forward to catching this one - thanks for the review.

Would should we expect from the devil!!! It's wonderful when we see how we can be free of a path or a method and trust what we feel inside of us - that is the good kind of faith. Maybe you don't need a defined path to move forward. Follow that beautiful light you feel inside. There is nothing truer than that. Books and methods are to guide us to the point where we have the confidence and sensitivity to perceive and follow that light. Mazel tov and blessings on your way forward my friend.

This is such a valuable thing to investigate and I will start by saying I have no idea what goes on with respect to addiction. It is beyond my capacity to understand (I did not say it was beyond my capacity to experience, just understand). Clearly, people indulge in their addiction of choice primarily because they prefer the way they feel while intoxicated to the way they feel sober. Whether this represents running from the pain of daily living, boredom, lack of spiritual connection, or simply a strong attachment to the experience of the particular flavor of intoxication probably transcends a simple explanation. To a large degree, I suspect that one of the primary causes is conditioning. We are conditioned from childhood to depend completely on the approval of others and society in general for our happiness. We must please our parents, our friends, our spouse, our boss. Witholding of approval is a powerful motivator. We are like monkeys or robots looking for our drug - approval. This sets up the dynamic for future addiction. We are taught that it is "good" and "desirable" to have exciting experiences and that it is best to avoid unpleasant experiences. The pleasant experiences are self-reinforcing and all of our social and cultural conditioning reinforces that. And yet every time we capture that "up" experience, we are perched on the edge of the slope to slide down into the negative which inevitably follows. So I think that addiction is simply an extension of our conditioned experience. Whether we are conditioned to be dependent on social approval, alcohol, marijuana, food, endorphins, orgasm, whatever,... It's all the same. How do we break the cycle? We must recognize that happiness is not seeking the "ups" and avoiding the "downs." They are inevitable cycles of mood and experience that will always be with us. Happiness is being in direct contatct with reality. It is to understand what is really going on inside and around us. It is learning to stop identifying with these fluctuations in mood and experience and simply observing the cycles as they come and go. This may be why meditation, prayer, contact with nature, and so on..., can be so helpful for us. But the opportunity to return to identifying with the cycles is always lurking under the surface and asking us to return... I'm looking forward to the 12 step exploration in January as I don't know much about it.

Down into the waves A lone particle descends Non Du Al It E

I received this from a friend who received it from a friend and wanted to share - I think it's nice. Dear Santa, I don't want much for Christmas, I just want the person reading this to be happy . Friends are the fruit cake of life - some nutty, some soaked in alcohol, some sweet - but mix them together and they're my friends. Merry Christmas.

Yes, I went through the cartoons and enjoyed that. It reminded me of some non-Euclidean stuff I used to dabble in. I've also read The Holographic Universe and enjoyed that - it really gave me a perspective that helped me see some things more clearly. I do think Talbot was reaching a little with some of the applications, however. I've never read any of his fiction- I'll have to check it out. Thanks

Being alone and being lonely are two very different things. It is possible to be completely alone and to have no feelings of loneliness whatsoever. It's equally possible to be surrounded by people and feel completely alone. We all live with feelings of being incomplete and feelings that we are lacking something. For you, it seems to be that you feel you are missing the company of other people. The irony is that even when in the company of others, you do not feel better - you feel anxiety. We are conditioned to believe that we require the company, love, and approval of others for our happiness. This is a myth. Think about how you feel when you are watching a great film or expressing yourself with a great idea in a script. You have the capacity to be happy and complete with or without the company of others. Get out and turn your attention to all of the potential around you. Go to a museum, a concert, a play, or a poetry reading. just walk around the city and give yourself over to all of the possibilities around you. Do something totally out of character. Visit somewhere you've never been, even if you don't think it interests you. Go to a tourist trap that you've never visited. And you just might run into some other people that you like to spend time with. Or get out to the country and spend some time in nature - even completely alone, I never feel alone when surrounded by trees, mountains, water,... Because the truth is you're never alone. You are everything you see around you. It's just that your sensory apparatus and the fact that you're mobile and surrounded by a bag of skin give the illusion that you are separate. All that said, I do think it is valuable for us to gain experience through relationship with others. The more you venture out, the more likely you are to have opportunities to meet others. As a member of this forum, you may have some interest in Buddhist or Daoist topics. As others have said, why not begin meditating with a sangha? Or look into getting involved in a cause where you can help others or do something for the environment. Join a stream clean up crew or a food bank or soup kitchen. Are there any film clubs at local colleges? Or join a Qigong or Taijiquan class. The latter would give you the opportunity to meet people, get some exercise, and open yourself to learning something about Daoism. And I don't mean to make it sound like it will be easy for you to change or that I understand what you are going through. My daughter has struggled her whole life with social anxiety so I've seen how tough it can be. But she made the choice (with my support and encouragement, as painful as that was!) to go 2500 miles away to school and now she has some friends and a boyfriend. If she can do it, you can too. It starts with a choice and one step in the right direction. Good luck!

I can only speak to Xuezhi Hu - I think his translation and commentary on Dao De Jin is excellent and worthy of study.

My apologies to all for continuing this interruption but I feel that settler is entitled to a response... settler - as moderator, it's my responsibility to determine whether your post was in violation of our rules here. I've determined that it was. You do not have to like that or agree with it but you do have to follow the rules as the moderators interpret them. I'm not interested in debating theology or semantics with you. Whether or not Seth is my friend is irrelevant. Your post was unacceptable. Please do not continue this course you are on if you wish to be a part of this community. If you would like to discuss Wild Goose QIgong, please feel free. If this thread continues to focus on bickering, I'll send it to the pit.

That's some very cool stuff Drew - eye opening in fact. Thanks for that.

Very well said. I'm with you on that.

This is not a trivial point. I think that we are more likely to grow through developing our interpersonal skills (civility, compassion, empathy,...) here than we are through learning practices like meditation, energy work,.... here. But that's just me...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Message settler - your latest post is verging on personal insult and defamation comments comparing homosexuals to satanists and calling a member a whore will not be tolerated since you are new here, consider this a fair warning please refrain from such attacks, as entertaining as they may be, or I will be forced to take action thank you for your cooperation Mod Out ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You've got me there... I'm a soap and shampoo user, I guess I'm just a poser after all! I'm glad I wasn't around to stop you! And you know I would never do that. Wonderful poem... really wonderful. Also, the link that life-force posted in his non-duality thread is well worth the read.