doc benway

I would be a bit careful about adding thodgal to the discussion as it does not involved visualization at all and could lead to confusion.

IMO/E No and no. Visualization, at least in the Bön teachings, is never an isolated practice, and I don’t use that word lightly. Those who become proficient/transformed through tantra don’t often abandon it as it is so effective and the benefits so worthwhile to others and to one’s own personal growth as a practitioner.

Provocateur par excellence! 🤣

Buddhas and Bodhisattvas can take on surprising and unexpected forms. My teacher once suggested the (somewhat unlikely) possibility that Donald Trump was a Bodhisattva! It definitely wrinkled some brows among his students!

What better way to generate buzz in our social media culture?

Bless you dear @Apech for indulging my laziness! In my experience there is some degree of conditioning present in any prolonged and intensive repetition of human activity and the ngondro is no exception. His error, and that of others looking at the ngondro from the outside, is to not appreciate the effect such a process can have on breaking down the one being conditioned and loosening his/her grasp and sense of primacy. I think that appreciation can only come from direct experience. I'm very interested in your thoughts on this as well. What can be said about his casual dismissal of dzogchen/mahamudra other than to say that he has little or no understanding of the view, meditation, and conduct of dzogchen/mahamudra? It's arguably more accurate to state that the training of the forest tradition ends with day one of the dzogchen/mahamudra path... but I don't want to start a pissing contest on that point and I think it's somewhat of an unfair and unskillful comparison. It appears to me that his knowledge of the vajrayana and of dzogchen/mahamudra is theoretical or second hand and therefore inherently inaccurate and limited. Once again, I'd love to hear your take on this. I have a lot of respect for your experience, knowledge, and your ability to express both. One of the things I most respect about the masters of meditation and martial arts I've encountered is their resistance to commenting on or judging other individuals' attainment or methods and systems outside their area of expertise. I think it is a sign of wisdom and maturity, not to mention an easy way to avoid looking foolish. Take someone with some expertise in a given field, put them on a public stage, and give them an opportunity to wax poetic on things outside their specific field of expertise; more often than not they will put their foot in their mouth a few times. I think that is a trap that is easy to fall into for folks that are elevated in the public eye.

Some of those lamas think they’re above the law…

@Apech Do you recall approximately where in the interview this was mentioned? I listened to some but skipped around and must have missed that bit.

I agree that statement is true, not particularly controversial in the dzogchen community. I consider it as a blessing, divine if you will. I also think there’s truth in the converse - everything we have done in this and prior lives led to this samadhi, nothing was ever out of place or we might not be here; more precisely, we have never been so much as a hair’s breadth from our nature. i agree with you and there is also this in my tradition - once we gain some familiarity and stability in meditation, the instruction is to begin to allow the flies to be in the ointment and if your meditation is not disturbed the practice is correct, even hippos - it’s called integration. The teaching says ‘when the flame is small it is good to protect it, when larger it is good to test it, and when blazing it is the hippos that feed it and help the connection and stability to deepen and broaden. Yes and they can also be used to strengthen when we’re ready. We begin by intentionally engaging in virtuous activity (mantras, prayers, circumambulation), then neutral activity (eating, sleeping, dreaming, crapping, sexing), and finally non-virtuous activity (this can be very controversial - nuff said for here). Yes initially but everything is integrated eventually….

reconsidered

My observation is that different people need different things at different times. Some aren’t ready to drop all supports right away. Whatever gets us closer is valid and precisely what we need in the moment. When we are ready to let go, I trust that we will. Until then it is good to work with what we can access in ourselves and with whatever methods our karma provides, here and now.

I voted yes because it’s clear to me that many people in multiple traditions have benefited from visualization practices over millennia. The questions for me are who benefits, certainly not everyone, and what is meant by visualization, as we may not all agree on a definition. Any question about whether or not a technique is useful in meditation is dependent on ‘who’ as much as ‘what’ IMO.

I hope you stay and simply steer clear of such "discussions." Your contributions here are valuable and appreciated. As Bill Bullard says...

My own bias is that when practices and teachings are being mixed, the value of lineage is diminished. For lineage to have value the teachings must be precise and as pure as possible. I'm not saying there is no value to a mix and match approach, it may be just what the right student needs. On the other hand, it does not have the authenticity, credibility, and confidence inspired by receiving teachings from a lineage holder for me.

A few unsolicited words about lineage. Geof will need to answer these questions, of course, but I want to share some thoughts FWIW. There is no need to posit anything even remotely supernatural regarding lineage and yet it is far more than simply a corpus of knowledge. In my experience, lineage plays an important role in experiential practices. In dealing with experiential practices, it is one thing to gain knowledge and another altogether to gain skill and to be assured that one has understood and integrated knowledge and technique to such a degree that it can be expressed effectively. It is easy to describe a taiji technique or meditation practice for someone. Totally different to make sure they know how to practice properly and actually become proficient. On top of that, how to know they have the capacity to pass it along in turn to others correctly. Lineage insures that the material is not only passed along but passed along in a way that insures accuracy, efficacy, and preservation of the original intent. This has been an interesting discussion. I find that I learn far more about those posting than I do about Adam Mizner and Damo Mitchell. That's generally the way of things here for me. I learn more about members, including myself, through our posts than I learn about whatever the subject matter may be. There are exceptions of course but not many.

I recommend you take the warnings seriously. Sooner or later meditation and energetic practices will open you up to any repressed or suppressed trauma and darkness. The transformation and growth promised by these methods require it. Energetic practices and meditative focus can intensify the experience and consequences. In my experience, a very small number of people interested in these practices stick with them long enough to see any real changes in themselves. Even fewer have negative effects. Nevertheless, a little caution goes a long way.

While being bilingual can be a big advantage, it does not mean your conclusions are unbiased. Everyone is biased. It’s wonderful that your point of view has shifted. Flexibility is valuable, both physically and mentally. In my experience, politicians always have time for politics - internal and external, it’s what they do. Mottos are cheap and rarely more than propaganda. What counts is whether or not actions reflect those noble words. I hope you are correct and the CCP is becoming more and more caring towards the people. Certainly that is not the case in the US where I live. It seems we are going the opposite direction here. You are telling it as you see it, not as it is. Different people will see it differently and each perspective is unique and valid, IMO. I am not judging you but hopefully pointing out that your perspective is not the only one that has validity.

@Giles The forum currently does not give members the option to delete posts and threads, only hide. Even the mods are discouraged from deleting anything. This is all to preserve the integrity of posts others may have added to the thread and also to allow mods/admin to see what has been posted in the event of a conflict or issue of some sort. If you want to delete something, I can help. Either post here or send me a PM. Of note, if you hide something you will not be able to see it in order to unhide it unless you have moderator permissions (which you do do your own PPF). Thanks and welcome back!

@mcoolio Should be good to go, enjoy!

In case anyone is curious reading this thread, the signature option is not active until members are promoted from "Junior Bum" to "Dao Bum" status. This occurs automatically after 14 posts. Warm welcome @Christopher Tricker and thanks for the heads up @ilumairen

@Christopher Tricker What device are you using? I’ll try to help.

Reminds me of the Genesis song Get 'Em Out by Friday!

Enough is enough I’m locking this thread Who knows where it goes from here? Merry Christmas Eve To all of Dao’s children I send you my Holiday Qier

And now for something completely different.