doc benway

@GreenMan @ilumairen Yes, I am able to merge both accounts or delete either one. I can also help restore your access to the old account if you prefer. Please let me know. Steve

Some random thoughts... Dorje and vajra are not often used in Bön teachings in my (limited) experience. The word Bön is generally used instead. Both dorje/vajra and Bön are used to refer to indestructible, invincible, unchangeable, hence the association with the 'prince of stones' or diamond. This is why the Nazis adopted the symbol for Bön, the yungdrung (swastika), as a symbol that the third reich would be indestructible. And by extension this is used as a metaphor for the unalterable Truth or Reality, the Nature of Mind, innate Buddhahood. This truth cuts through all illusion, hence the association with thunderbolt or the weapon of Indra - a cudgel of irresistible spiritual power. Leading to the term vajrayana - vehicle of indestructible reality or vehicle of unalterable truth or something like that.

Sorry to intrude like this but you are also highly educated and a scholar, if I'm not mistaken. Do you maintain that each and every word in every language has a single unique and exclusive meaning? PS - རྡོ་རྗེ is two letters, not four, as is वज्र

Such a good point. Just like corporatized "news" has taken advantage of our attraction to stimulation and emotional subject matter, people are drawn by the sensationalized spiritual practices (sexual practice, drilling holes in heads, enlightenment, immortality, power). In the end these traditions all point to the inner journey we must take through the mundane, the painful, the dysfunctional, even the wonderful things in our lives in order to make a connection with something much more pervasive, profound, and powerful... I haven't read or listened to Ian Baker before but maybe I'll check him out.

@Taoist Texts I recently came across the book Taoist Chanting and Recitation by Stuart Alve Olson. It contains a variety of chants and recommendations for daily practice that the author received from his teacher TT Liang, who in turn received them from Liu Peizhong. The liturgical sources are said to come from The Highest Treasury of Truth Scripture of the Quan Zhen sect and attributed to Lu Dongbin. It contains a number of other scriptures as well and Olson's translation of the Dao De Jing. I've just started to look through and like what I see so thought I'd mention it here for anyone interested in resources associated with Liu Peizhong, Dragon Gate, or Complete Reality traditions.

Another interpretation of realization is manifestation of the three bodies.

when I believe that my path is the only correct path or that it is the best path for others, I am already lost

crack! a log ignites angry mob shouting slogans red, white, and blue burn

The navel chakra and lower dan tian are two different “things.” In the Tibetan Bön tradition the navel chakra is associated with with the process of digestion, processing, and assimilating. It is associated with the fire element and the seed syllable RAM. Working with the navel chakra is not a comprehensive practice and generally not done in isolation other than to address blockages of this chakra. It is part of a more comprehensive practice, for example that of the 5 Warrior Seed Syllables. I can recommend a book to your friend called Tibetan Sound Healing. There is also a series of free online videos describing the practices. Here is a link to the first in the series - .

I think you summed that up quite well. I agree with this approach completely, in fact it is my own core practice. However, not everyone is ready for this approach. For some, the distractions and confusion are so strong they require a method that uses effort and intention. These people need to be acknowledged and supported just as much as those who are ready to let go of the effort and intention. It is important as a teacher to discern what any given student needs and support them on that path until they no longer need it. This is why the Buddha is said to have taught 84,000 different methods.

Greetings @Stars and welcome to the forum! I'm an old guy and have some experience with energy work, qigong, neigong, taiji, meditation, and martial arts. A few suggestions - avoid anything related to Mopai. It is a dead end. Total waste of time IMO. As others have suggested, take advantage of your youth and health and prioritize vigorous physical activity and exercise. This will benefit you now and even more as you get older, particularly when you're an old fart like me. There will be plenty of time for the more esoteric internal arts in the future and progress in those arts will be greatly enhanced by a healthy body and mind. Team sports and activities are particularly valuable in this age of cyber-life and isolation. The teenage and early adult years can be extremely stressful and I think meditation is worth considering at your stage in life. Suppressing urges, sexual or otherwise, is rarely effective or healthy. Better to understand the urges and find a way to accept them and yourself for experiencing them. Over-indulgence is not healthy either, of course. Balance is key. Most of all engage in and enjoy and make the most of your youth and your health, it is now or never.

Many modern students follow teachers around and accumulate empowerments and transmissions and take many teachings. But this is not a substitute for practice. Pure students don’t hang around the teachers that much. They come for instruction, or guidance, or clarification, and then they go off and practice.– Mingyur Rinpoche

I was curious because he mentions nei gong as an important part of his curriculum on his website - after extensive personal practice and many years of teaching Tai Chi, Nei Gong and Meditation, Adam Mizner founded Heaven Man Earth Internal Arts International. Heaven Man Earth Internal Arts International is dedicated to the propagation of authentic traditional meditation, nei gong and Yang Style Tai Chi.

That is also the case with Bön and Buddhist schools. The side effects or signs are a useful guide to see how one’s practice is progressing as I’m sure there are some signs of progress of some sort in your school. These signs are never the focus or objective of the practice, in fact that can be an obstacle, and yet it seems to be what some folks focus on when challenging the efficacy of Vajrayana methods. I’m glad we cleared that up. Thanks

Thanks for the explanation. It was not at all clear from Damo’s website what neidan school he is with. Both Adam and Damo seem to have a variety of teachers, some stated and others not. Not sure if they are all in the same lineage or style, etc… Adam seems to mix Buddhist and Daoist teachings. There is no mention if Damo is authorized to teach or represent a given lineage and no info about Adam’s neidan lineage, etc… So for me there were some unknowns. Your explanation is helpful. Thanks

So I'm curious, as I think some others are. Whenever Vajrayana has been brought up, a few folks ask questions about what physical and observable changes are occurring to "prove" it works? Things like opening a hole in one's head or drying a wet blanket on the body. Can those folks please share what observable signs they've seen in Damo, Adam, Asa, and/or themselves or other students that give them a sense of trust in these new and untested methods of cultivation? This is a genuine question, not meant to be critical or demeaning. Thanks

For me the heart of the teachings is two fold - wisdom and compassion. The Medicine Buddha, Menlha, is indeed a Buddha. While he may well be influenced by Hindu deities, it’s also possible that he came from Bön as there is a Medicine Buddha in Bön. In Buddhism Menlha is an avatar of Buddha Shakyamuni. In Bön he is an avatar of Buddha Tonpa Shenrab, the founder of Bön. Deities in Bön are often, but not always Buddhas. Some are not considered fully enlightened. Menlha is a fully enlightened Buddha. I’ve heard different explanations for the blue color. The most widely discussed is the blue color is related to lapis lazuli, very precious in ancient times and said to have healing properties. Blue color is also associated with the water element which has healing, soothing, balancing qualities. Finally, blue is the color of the clear sky which is often used as a symbol of emptiness and spaciousness, the nature of our true being and the ultimate healer. For this reason Menlha is sometimes referred to as a Buddha of wisdom.

Hi J.M. I lived in central NY, Syracuse, for a short time and love that area, particularly the finger lakes. I appreciate your introduction and look forward to having you be a part of the community.

Yeah they’re nice but they never want to dry my wet blankets… what’s up with that?! 🙃

Stranger

Neidan practice did not use visualization, Vajrayana does in both generation and completion stage practices, but not in dzogchen. I don't know enough about mahamudra to comment. Many reasons which include the things you mention above but go beyond that. Some of which are on the negative side that I'd rather not get into publicly. Yes, this is a major part of my process of evaluation also. My pleasure I'm going to stop here out of respect for @Apech

My teacher prefers his privacy so I respect that. His teacher was Liu Peizhong from Taiwan.

@Shadow_self I don't consider vajrayana "superior" to any other system. In fact, I don't accept the concept of superiority of systems. I do believe in the superiority of specific system/teacher/practitioner combinations and even that is individual, flexible and impermanent. I find vajrayana to be a far more credible and proven system than the methods put together by Damo and Adam. Just my opinion. If you have confidence in one or both of their systems and they are working for you, by all means don't let me dissuade you from continuing. Life is short and we need to work with what makes sense to us, what works for us, and what is available. Personally, I've had wonderful, life changing benefits from both neidan and vajrayana practices. Cheers

Done!

I get your point but one could just as easily say: Constructing a mental vision is visualization. Seeing a spontaneous image is imagination. These are arbitrary labels. Fortunately we agree in principle and just need to be unambiguous in our communication. I may sound a bit inflammatory here also and I apologize in advance. The problem I have, and the reason I engaged in this discussion, is with a statement like “if you want imaginary results use your imagination.” Adam and Damo publicly trivialized and invalidated time tested methods that have millennia of demonstrable results while they teach mixed systems (Adam) or fail to share the names of their teachers and lineage (Damo). They don’t have a fraction of the history or results to back up their teachings to compare to a tradition like the vajrayana. I understand the longstanding rivalry between theravada and mahayana, not to mention the inherent controversy of dzogchen/mahamudra (far more controversial than anything Adam or Damo said in their podcasts). The problem is that mixed systems and mystery systems are complete unknowns. I understand their appeal as there are folks who are hungry for neidan and few to no credible teachers and systems accessible to Westerners. I think they chose the low road in trying to bolster their teachings by disrespecting and making a mockery of far more credible and proven systems. I hope they are both successful and help many people but that remains to be seen.