doc benway

I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes. I also like Watson's translations best. Everything you said above makes sense. One consideration - as we encounter some of the more famous excerpts in any given chapter we could consider looking at comparative translations of some of those isolated parables. That way we can benefit from seeing variations in interpretation and tranlation without plodding through multiple translations of an entire chapter.

Good luck to you Aaron - sorry to see you're struggling financially. I hope to see you back in the community soon. I enjoy many of your posts.

तदा द्रष्टुः स्वरूपेऽवस्थानम् ॥३॥ tadā draṣṭuḥ svarūpe-'vasthānam ||3|| For finding our true self (drashtu) entails insight into our own nature. ||3|| To move on - this may be the single most important statement in all of spiritual literature as far as I'm concerned. I am of the opinion that the only place we can find answers regarding the nature of our selves, our existence, our reality, are inside. We will not find answers in a book. We will not find the answer from another. We must do the work personally, and if we bring enough energy, dedication, awareness to the question, we will find something worth the investment. A simple way to the truth is to simply pay attention to everything. Everything inside of us and outside of us. Our behavior, thought patterns, emotions, psychological structures. We need to look at all of that very deeply. That's where the truth is - not in a book or even a place of worship.

Not much time to consider and comment just now but I do hope you will continue with this Manitou. Thanks - much to think about

When you feel the connection in your bones, so many things that were unclear become clear.

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LBDaoist - it's really nice to see a post like yours. I also think that there is something special here and great potential and it's good to see others acknowledge that.

I think about this and it's not just green. It can get really complicated when you get into things like emotion and sound and .... jeez! My dog died... :sniff: I think this is a good area to try and be careful with... but it's difficult to really know anything here, no? Yup, this is where the rubber meets the road. Perception, awareness

Some cool stuff to think about in this thread (not too close to the OP though) Very true - his explanation/demonstration of truth is through love. And not too many people can become him, and belief isn't enough. You must become what he was. Yup - love is none of these things, even power. Although it can produce power, I think. Not the other way around though. Power can't produce love. I think love is different from all these things... they are valid points, every one, but not really love. I agree. Love is 'beyond' all that. Whatever that means I don't thing power creates love but at the same time, maybe one does need a lot of personal power to reach love, at least at some point. But like manitou points out in the beginning, the power of love comes from complete acceptance and with complete awareness - Wu Wei. Knowing and accepting was the exercise of power.

The two people that inspire me most are Jiddu Krishnamurti (just about anything he's written, especially To Be Human and Total Freedom) and Anthony DeMello (particularly his CD set, Wake Up to Life and his books - Awakening and The Way to Love). I periodically find myself coming back to these two sources periodically and they never fail to inspire. Krishnamurti does a beautiful job of bringing the seeker into the seeking rather than providing pat answers. DeMello, similarly, engages the seeker in themselves and in the world but their approaches and idiosyncrasies are very different and insightful. Also, the recent death of my dog has been a spiritual experience - thinking about her presence and absence. Thinking and meditating on time and love. Taking time to feel the loss, and so on...

What about love?

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She's cool - a friend once turned me onto a Starbuck's sampler CD of all things. She was on it along with a lot of other superb music. Here's another cut I liked -

Dhyana is the Sanskrit word for meditation/contemplation, also known as jhana in Pali.

Nice post, I watched a fellow transform from nearly crippled by auto-immune disease to a vibrant, medal winning, taiji player. Great stuff

Yes, excellent post. I particularly like your cake analogy and the "situationally flexible" part. I think that the key, as you mention, is to look at the desire or the attachment and to understand it for what it is. Generally speaking, when you are able to do that, it is no longer a problem. Thanks

I think that it's extremely difficult to tease Daoist, Buddhist, and Confucian influences out of the Chinese cultural experience. But we can look at the classics and at the example set by the sages. It's clear to me that Daoism encourages us to let go of desire and attachment. The second treasure of Daoism, referred to in Dao De Jing, is frugality - 二曰俭. This can be interpreted as frugality but also as economy, restraint, or simplicity. I like to think of it as in nature - nature wastes nothing and balance exists when there is no excess. The sages eschewed material wealth and power completely. Rank and station were unimportant. They certainly didn't tend towards excess but they didn't necessarily advocate asceticism or self-denial c So I think it's important to really look at what you mean by desire. It's normal and natural to eat when hungry, make love when aroused, replace your shoes when worn. It's when desire creates frustration or obsession or distraction from those things that are important to us (our core values) when it needs to be addressed.

Nice comments all around. I've at times thought that there was an irony in the choice of words "take refuge." Much of our suffering arises from the desire for security. There is no greater security than the acceptance that security itself is an illusion. And yet, the admonition for us to "take refuge," seems to reinforce this desire for security.

So I'll kick it off - अथ योगानुशासनम् ॥१॥ atha yoga-anuśāsanam ||1|| Yoga in the here and now: an introduction to the study and practice of yoga ||1|| And now, an exposition on the practice of union! Anusasanam gives this sutra a feeling of heaviness, importance, tradition, age, weight, etc... Atha implies that we are not beginners, that we have had life experience and are at a place in life when we are willing to devote ourselves to a new and valuable endeavor - namely, union or yoga. योगश्चित्तवृत्तिनिरोधः ॥२॥ yogaś-citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ ||2|| When you are in a state of yoga, all misconceptions (vrittis) that can exist in the mutable aspect of human beings (chitta) disappear. ||2|| A more literal translation might be: The state of union is achieved by a cessation of the turnings of the mind. Some of the turnings of the mind, as stated above, are misconceptions or less helpful actions of the mind and these are to be ceased. Other activities of the mind are more beneficial and will be discussed more later. So this is saying in a way that yoga is successful meditation or perhaps that yoga can be achieved through successful meditation. Just some thoughts - anyone else care to contribute?

I quoted your post again because I think every word of it is a valuable lesson for us as a community interested in spiritual growth. Unfortunately, using Trunk's tip does not bring people together with different perspectives to share and learn from each other. Sadly, I think many of us are not ready for or interested in that level of interaction.

Is meditation about pleasure?

Actually, there's pretty good medical data that shows real cardiorespiratory benefits from taiji although, I agree that it doesn't feel challenging to young fit folks. The key is to get good enough at it that you can do it slowly enough and with deep enough stances to make it truly challenging. And I disagree with you about the flexibility piece - it's great for flexibility. It really helps to loosen the hip joints and the spine in addition to the usual stretching stuff (hamstrings, etc...).

Correct, I do not think that he is giving us a demonstration of the refinement of Qi but rather, something else and passing it off as such. I am open to the possibility that it could exist but I don't think he is demonstrating it. I am defining parlor trick as having us believe one thing but doing something else. The other things you list, IMO, are skills regardless of whether we judge them useful or not. The skill of sleight of hand requires practice, passing it off as magic is the trick. Basketball, skill in sports, acting, juggling, musicianship - all skills requiring time and effort. Worthless? Valuable? We're free to pass our own judgements about that.

Most of what you describe above is a demonstration of skill - physical strength, B-ball accuracy, skillful drawing. These things take practice and work over time (Gong Fu). I'm not convinced what Chang is doing is a demonstration of skill, I think it's a parlor trick. I may be completely wrong and stand corrected if I am. If you or anyone else is passionate about developing supernatural powers - go for it!! I sincerely wish you great success. I would love to see new things that are exciting and valuable and unexpected. I have developed great insights and even some interesting skills from my own cultivation. And when you have succeeded, I hope that you use them to help others and, if you choose to demonstrate them publicly, do it in such a way that it can help to elevate everyone's awareness as to what the possibilities of humanity are. I don't think Chang is doing that with these video clips. What I see going on with videos like this is people wanting to believe. So if Chang can ignite paper does that mean that you will be motivated to cultivate? And if it turns out he cannot, will you get discouraged and quit? The point is - what does it matter? The way to know whether cultivation can produce meaningful results is to DO IT. When you have practiced long and hard enough you will know what the possibilities are. To argue them on paper is not a productive investigation, IMO. To let a John Chang video sway you one way or another is not something I see as useful. I have tried hard to get that message across to my students. They need to do the work, not worry about a youtube video or a demonstration or Qi power. But now I just feel like I'm flogging the proverbial dead horse so I'll wrap it up. The reason that you're not convinced about my opinion relative to society is that you don't know me. And I will admit that I err on the side of doubt rather than belief, it is my nature and my preference. If we ever have the opportunity to get to know each other better, we will be able to draw much more accurate conclusions. Hopefully, that will happen some day.

Nope - I have no interest in telling you what you should or should not do. I fully support any endeavor you choose to invest yourself in. I do think that hanging your hat on a display of "power" like lighting a piece of paper on fire with your mind is foolish because it's distracting and shallow. Real power is different. Real power does not put on youtube demonstrations and flaunt itself. Every great tradition that teaches us to develop personal power also admonishes us against petty displays like that. This is why I don't buy it. Not because it is outside the norm. You're speaking to someone who has spent the last 8 years practicing Daoist cultivation daily, not to mention a litany of other things I'd prefer not to mention on a public forum, I'm not swayed by what my society tells me is approved or not approved. I do understand your point and I agree with much of what you're saying. I don't think I'm expressing myself very well and it's also possible that I'm just flat out wrong - wouldn't be the first time. For me, it's not about learning to do a parlor trick like igniting a piece of paper, knocking people over with a Qi ball, videotaping that, and so forth. For me, it's more about putting in the time and effort to work on the program or the project without being too concerned about the outcome or proving anything to others. It is the process that's important and if at the end of 40 years of practice, I can burn paper with a thought - cool. Am I going to videotape that? Does it matter if I can do that? Does putting that on tape validate what I'm doing or turn it into a sideshow? Why is he not doing this in a controlled lab if his genuine motivation is to study and measure this "power"? Is John Chang training dozens or hundreds of people (or even one) in how to develop healing powers? Wouldn't that be a better use of his time? Too many of us are suffering because we always feel that we're not good enough, so we chase our tails for some imaginary goal while ignoring the simple beauty and magic of our lives. That's really all I'm saying. I don't get excited by watching a video of one person on earth who claims he can ignite paper with his mind. Maybe he can, maybe he can't - what's the difference? How does that help any of us or change our lives? If he can do it, I will practice my Daoist cultivation, if he is a phony, I will continue to practice. It is not about the prize, it's about the process. If he can heal people, that is wonderful. If he is healing hundreds of people, he should be training others to do it as well and what's the point of igniting a piece of paper on film? I have no interest in telling you or anyone else what you can or can't do. I have no bias against John Chang's training and healing practice, whatsoever. I'm just not impressed by the parlor tricks. I guess what I am saying is, whatever you decide to do, do it well, do it fully, do it with passion, and relish it, because that is what we have the opportunity to do here in this life. If at the end of it you have some special power, do good work with it rather than show it off.