doc benway

Sounds like a very auspicious start - welcome.

Since I was personally involved in this action, I'd like to elaborate for the benefit of the membership in general. I personally came across a post of Alwayson that I considered to be insulting and disrespectful. I generated a report myself and contacted him directly and posted in the thread, asking that he edit his post. I informed the mod team of my actions. He ignored my request to self-moderate. I then looked deeper and discovered that he had just come off of a 6 month suspension. The mod team discussed how best to respond based on his current action and his previous behavior. Another extended suspension was felt to be the most appropriate course of action.

Very sorry to hear that zerostao, I have valued your presence here and hope you return sometime. This current flame war will burn itself out and hopefully we'll be back to a more tranquil environment in the near future. Be well and thanks for your contributions, I will miss them sorely.

Thanks for sharing your very personal story - that takes courage. Welcome and I hope you enjoy your time here. There are a lot of reasons why people spend time here. I think many of us are looking for a sense of community that we have not found in some of the more mainstream institutions and organizations.

Stig - My PM to you was personal. I closed the message with "Just wanted to get that off my chest." Does that sound like a moderator action? Of course, you get to choose how to interpret it. I didn't even tell the other mods about it until after the fact. Your incessant efforts at disrupting the forum including the excellent efforts being made by the mods team led me to write it. Like a few other members here, I'm tired of watching you try to bully, intimidate, and embarrass Sean and the mod team into giving you your way. Like them, I was hoping to help you see how selfish and foolish your actions have been. It was not in any way done as a moderator, I'm not really even comfortable in that role yet. It's awkward to have one foot in each camp, I'm trying my best to walk that line. It may have seemed like a moderator message because you found it harsh. It was harsh because I felt that I needed to be direct If it was done as a moderator, I would have noted that in the message very clearly. As I hope is very clear on this board, I make great efforts to communicate clearly and unambiguously. My comment about your political agenda trumping your desire to have a personal relationship is a statement of fact based on my direct and personal experience of the past 24 hours. It is a direct consequence of you taking my personal message and, rather than responding to me personally, responding to me publicly in a very clear framework of your political agenda, including quoting me from a post responding to your agenda from several weeks ago. You are welcome to report me and see if the other mods feel that I broke the no insult rule, despite the fact that I did not report you for publicly posting my private PM. The moderators are not above the "law" as far as I am concerned.I will gladly abide by their decision. Unlike you and Scotty and a handful of others, I respect what they are trying to do here, I am trying to help them as best I can, and I will demonstrate that by trying to make their job easier and the forum more conducive to worthwhile discussion about content, rather than personal agendas. And don't try to make it seem like your action was a knee jerk reaction done without thinking. Your positing of my PM was over 24 hours after I sent it and you read it. You had plenty of time to consider how best to respond. You had plenty of time to send me a PM telling me how angry you are and asking if I was addressing you as a fellow member or from the perspective of a moderator. You're simply trying to justify the way you've been behaving lately. You've been angry for a long time. You're just projecting it at me because I struck a nerve with my PM and my response to your actions. And what are we fighting about here? Your refusal to allow Sean to see his private forum run as he sees fit with the assistance of a few volunteers who are working in good faith to make this forum a pleasant place to discuss personal cultivation. Selfishness is not living YOUR life the way YOU see fit. Selfishness is expecting others to live THEIR lives the way YOU see fit.

I was upset briefly insofar as I recognize that I misjudged Stig. It does hurt a bit when someone betrays a confidence but, like I said, it was brief. I'm over it. Stig's political agenda is more important than cultivating relationships with people. That's fine - it's his choice. I'm the opposite - I'm here to cultivate relationships - that's what counts for me. All the rest of this stuff is icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned. Maybe I'll learn something, maybe even help someone somehow. I don't see any need for action from the moderators. Stig's decision to post my PM publicly was much more damaging to him than to me and more damaging than anything the mods would do about it. Thanks to all those who spoke out on my behalf while I was away from the forum. It's late, I've had a very long day (but I did get to see Cirque du Soleil's Love - WOW!!!) I'm off to bed.

Thank you Stig. At least now I know where I stand with you. I get to choose when I communicate publicly and privately. And you get to choose what you do with that communication. Your posting of my private message says a lot about your character. Your retraction of the private message and apology are noted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Team Alwayson - This post was inappropriate and unnecessary. It violates our policy regarding respect and insults. This is a warning to refrain from such behavior. Please edit your post. Mod Team Out ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hell no! What's the point of having youth, beauty, health, great boobs, great bums, and long legs forever if you can't use them? That's more like hell... I'd rather have them for a few hours and actually experience their functionality. Otherwise, it's like having a Ferrari in your garage that you can never drive, what's the point?

Before you get too excited Stig, tulku edited his post after my PM to him requesting that he do so and suggesting that further mod action would depend on his response.

For the record, he did so at my request.

Oh no!! Not the Klingon!! Please! Not the Klingon!!!

Tulku - your comment was completely inappropriate. As a TTB member and user, I would prefer not to participate in any forum that you are a part of. As a moderator, I'm going to recommend the harshest response possible.

Cultivation is challenging, relationships are challenging. Many serious cultivators have chosen seclusion to allow focus. I believe that true cultivation can benefit immensely from the experience of relationships. Relationships are mirrors through which we can see facets of ourselves that are otherwise obscured. The key is to learn how to do that. When I am interacting with someone, it is much better to ask myself what the other person's reaction tells me about ME rather than worrying about what it tells me about them. Anyway, I'm not sure what you're looking for Golden Flower but welcome to the asylum.

You're right about that. There was a time when the non-dual insight hit me like a ton of bricks - a physical, deep in the bones, gut type feeling. It really messed with my practice for exactly the reasons you describe. It still is there but when it comes down to it, we do what we choose to do for many different reasons. So I choose to continue to practice because I recognize valuable benefits in my worldly life and because I enjoy it. Does it really make a difference in the long run? I really don't know. It has helped so far.

Yeah, words get in the way in so many ways. In a sense, all of the labeling and "understanding" is just reinforcing the illusion that "I" am something other than all of these feelings and experiences we are describing. When in fact, "I" am just a thought that claims to be "doing" and "having experiences." Best to practice! Nice talking to you about this stuff.

Cool stuff Stig - may I ask what school of practice you follow? My school is supposedly expert at this method but it's not something my Shifu has shared with me. To be honest, I'm not sure if it's something I'd want to get involved in.

You have to start somewhere - Waysun Liao does a nice job of addressing this. I hear you but I disagree. Using the mind is a very valuable tool in working with and developing the experience of Qi. Developing the Yi is never a joke. It's a painstaking and slow process and most abandon it way before they see meaningful results. You are doing it in your way, me in mine, others in there's. The energy is always already there - we simply are unaware of it, unconnected to it. Just like we're unaware of how our thyroid is functioning, our digestion and heartbeat (usually), our blood flow, pancreas, liver, and just about everything else about our bodies. We all have energy, otherwise we would be dead. Certainly some have more, some less. It changes with time, health (physical, psychological, emotional, spiritual), and many things beyond my understanding. That's my experience. None of us can "prove" we are doing the real thing but, like you, I think we generally know it when we feel it. Many are fooled by charlatans, books, themselves, but I also think judicious use of the imagination can be a helpful tool in the beginning. It is never forced, absolutely. That's not effective at all. It is more a matter of becoming increasingly more sensitive. Opening up and giving oneself over. As the mind becomes tranquil, we come more in touch with the experience of the energetic facet of our existence and it comes to play an increasingly greater role in our lives. Did you feel the energy day one at every moment? Didn't you need to do some work to reach that attainment? How did you get there? There are different ways. You were developing the Yi - the intention, and the awareness in your own way. Not an easy task. And there are other techniques and methods that can take us there and some take the Yi even further, much further. Yi is used in our system to convert Jing > Qi > Shen and beyond (and maybe you've gone or will go even further than the Daoist methods can go - I don't know and it really doesn't matter). All of this is words, labels. Are the realities we are approaching really different? I don't think so. I don't think we're talking about different things. We're talking about life, breathing, meditation, the cultivation of our energetic and spiritual awareness, aren't we? Are there different life energies? I don't think so, just different labels we put on the same thing. I recognize what you are describing and I think there are different paths to similar experience. I am also talking about and practicing Nei Dan, not just Tai Ji Quan. Our system includes some standing methods but the vast majority of the practice is sitting (and some lying down). My school of practice is from western China and is influenced by Tibetan practices. This is completely independent of Tai Ji Quan but you will generally find the two combined by credible Tai Ji Quan masters. You can only take Tai Ji Quan so far without the Nei Gong. The two practices are beautifully complimentary which is why I mentioned it and why Tai Ji Quan is closely associated with (perhaps why it was developed by) the Daoists. Breath is always there. You may follow a path that manipulates it in specific patterns, others don't, it is there and working nonetheless. Is breathing in a specific pattern the only way to develop energetic awareness? Not in my experience. I agree that 'refining and developing' (I also agree that words are not very accurate here) the MCO take a VERY long time. I'm still working on it after 8 years (along with several other things). The blockages can be a bitch! And there are refinements that I won't go into here that are quite challenging and valuable. As far as the Yi goes, all I can say is that it can be developed in ways that most of us cannot begin to imagine. Is it the end-all of everything? I don't know. I've only been working with it for about 8 years. It is a very useful and powerful tool. Who knows it's ultimate potential? I've seen it do some amazing things! I agree, it is not at all simple and yet it is very simple at the same time. I don't take it lightly at all. I take it very seriously, and yet there comes a time when you realize that it's always already there so what is it that we need to do and who is there to take this seriously? It is the first and most basic technique in our system and I'm still working on it after nearly a decade, along with other, more challenging practices. My practice of the MCO is also a lot different from what I've seen in books. When it comes to "doing" it. I find that to be paradoxical. Do we "do" our heart beat? Our breath (well, sometimes it's intentional, but often not)? Our endocrine functions? How do we lift our hand to our face? If I beat my own heart then I also shine the sun. There is some beautiful neurophysiological research that demonstrates that if I make the decision to carry out a simple task (like scratching my nose), my neuromuscular system shows measurable change in preparation to carry out the activity BEFORE I am consciously aware of making the decision to act. Working with the Yi and converting Jing to Qi to Shen is much deeper and more profound than simply visualizing or imagining energy flowing around in a circle up my spine and down my front... that's just a very loose and inaccurate application of labels to an experiential practice. It is not at all an accurate description of the experience, it's a starting point for beginners and it's very awkward language. This is why I always emphasize the importance of working directly with a credible teacher with this stuff. It's very hard to get it from books and probably equally difficult to get it on one's own.... though not impossible. I appreciate your sharing of your experience but I think it's also important to acknowledge and respect other methods that have been effectively used for centuries. I only replied because of Mokona's request to hear other points of view. I don't mean to invalidate your experience or methods.

Uno mas - this qualifies as one of my guilty pleasures.... my daughter rolled her eyes when I started playing it.... Look into your heart and you'll find :wub: :wub: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl88QEll-Xc

That's exactly what I was going to post!!!! IZZZZ!!!!!! MUCH LOVE So I'll just have to post this one instead

I think people can relate to a discussion of cultivating clarity. Clarity regarding how we relate to our environment, how we relate to other people, how we relate to our own internal landscape and environment. Cultivating a relationship with ourselves at a more profound level. Developing integration and between awareness and our physical and emotional existence. Maybe not concrete enough but I find that helps with most folks.

The one that's hiding inside of me somewhere - no name, no gender, can't really say much more about it...

I agree with you. When we first come to cultivation, it is generally from a place of social and cultural conditioning that is so profound that it is difficult to even recognize it is there. Much of the work that we do, whether it be meditation, energy work, physical work, breathing work, seems to me to be a way to reintegrate the awareness with the body (and everything in between - emotional, spiritual, psychological, energetic, ....). All of these different techniques of cultivation seem to me to clear the crap that has been put there since childhood that separates us from what we are. Once these "blockages," distractions, conditioning (whatever you want to call it) clears, we can recognize who and what we are and appreciate the fact that we don't really need to do anything because it is all already there. The only thing is, we have to do these things before we can realize that there's nothing to do! The paradox of cultivation. And the crap is always creeping back in so maintenance is necessary in some form or another.

The method I practice is very different from that described by Kali Yuga. I understand what he is describing and do not doubt the experiences and attainment he has shared. The method I've been taught is simply a different approach and is very effective. I disagree with his statement: "There is no such thing as 'using intention to move the energy around at will.'" This is a foundation practice in many Daoist traditions, although the way it is worded here is not quite accurate in describing what one is "doing." Developing skill in this is why Daoist meditation is so valuable to developing advanced skills in Tai Ji Quan. Essentially, this is what makes Tai Ji Quan 'internal.' I've never read any of Mantak Chia's books so I can't comment on his methods, nor have I learned any Daoist methods from a book, just my Shifu. The MCO is the first, and most basic, exercise in our system. Being the most basic does not mean that it is easy, trivial, or abandoned once "mastered." Like in anything else, there is always room for deeper understanding and improvement. We come back to it throughout our course of training and continually refine it. Unlike some of the other posts in this thread, my practice of the MCO is independent of the breath for the most part. It is an exercise of the Yi, mind of intent, and does not depend on any particular pattern of breathing. The breath breathes itself when working with the Yi to convert Jing to Qi. Once the MCO is mastered, more challenging exercises are given to the student. If you have more specific questions, you are welcome to PM me.

I have a friend who has practiced Aikido for many years. He recently expressed interest in practicing Tai Ji Quan because of that lack in the Aikido programs in the states. He's originally from Hawaii where he says the teachers were more concerned with such considerations.