doc benway

So you are not trying lump together but then you dare someone to distinguish the two? One fundamental difference between Qi Gong and Nei Gong is how the breath is used. Another is how the body is used. A third is how the mind is used. A fourth is the objective . . . and so it goes....

:lol: Methinks I struck a nerve. What did I make up? The phrase "making shit up"? Nope, I borrowed that from a friend who coined it in response to another acquaintance who, like you, likes to make shit up. You're welcome to disregard all traditional Daoist definitions of Yin and Yang and make up your own associations but to do so and continue to use the words Yin and Yang is foolhardy and confusing to people who don't know better. Stig and I, and a few others, are trying to foster an environment where people new to Daoism can learn some basic principles and ideas as defined by Daoists and their classic literature rather than Vmarcoism. It's fine to debate and discuss alternative interpretations but inaccurate pedantry isn't very helpful or skillful. You may as well just make up your own words to label your own cosmology - Vmaoism. Instead of Yin and Yang, how about Vmin and Vmang? That has a nice ring to it, I think. That's what I'll use from now on when I refer to your theory. Not only do you ignore the traditional Daoist cosmology completely (which is fine but then it's not related to Daoism) but some of your assignments simply make no sense. For example: Yang = infrared = heating Yin = ultraviolet = cooling Which has more energy and generates more heat? Ultraviolet or infrared? You are welcome to call me names and diagnose me with schizophrenia (now THAT'S the pot calling the kettle black) but what you are really doing is calling traditional Daoism delusional. That's completely fine with me, I don't even consider myself Daoist, but then why bother to try and associate yourself and your personal cosmology with a tradition that you spurn and denigrate? Edit - After reading 5ElementTao's post I'm hoping you'll 'listen' to what he's saying. When I use the word 'listen' I mean in the Krishnamurti sense. You quote him quite a bit but I wonder if you have ever 'listened' as he suggests? It can be very illuminating (sorry for the bad pun)... You're clearly intelligent and very well read and I think we share some common ideas and insights. I genuinely think you have a lot to contribute, but your approach needs to be reconsidered if you hope to have any sort of a relationship with the members here. And if you choose not to, that is fine too...

Short answer: No, Tai Ji Quan is a comprehensive martial art. For those who don't mind my tendency to get wordy here is a longer answer: The history is mostly conjecture but it probably started as a collection of martial techniques (the 13 Postures mentioned in the classics) and Daoist Nei Gong exercises. Those Daoists most likely practiced some Qi Gong as well. It was much later that the 13 postures and other Wai Jia postures were linked together to form what we now know as Tai Ji Quan forms. That's probably when Qi Gong principles were adapted and applied and slow moving forms developed. It's ironic that most Tai Ji Quan players know Tai Ji Quan as being a slow form and have no idea what the 13 postures are, when it originally was the opposite. Tai Ji Quan is made up of multiple parts: 1) Forms practice 2) Pushing Hands training 3) Meditation and Nei Gong 4) Strengthening and Flexibility exercises 5) Weapons training 6) Supplemental strengthening and flexibility training using assistive devices 7) Martial application and self defense training 8) Qin Na Other things.... The Tai Ji Quan forms can be practiced in different ways: 1) As a Qi Gong exercise - when done in this way the usual principle and practices of Qi Gong methods apply (such as abdominal breathing or natural breathing) and there are many benefits - strength, flexibility, balance, health, wellness, Qi cultivation, etc... 2) As a method of developing a variety of different Nei Gong skills (the most basic is developing the Yi by guiding the Qi) - these methods incorporate some subtle and some substantial differences from the Qi Gong method (including different breathing methods) 3) As a method for learning and refining Fa Jin skills - very different from Qi Gong approach (including different breathing methods) 4) Fast form practice for development of other martial skills - very different focus from Qi Gong (different breathing methods) 5) Partner training - development of a skill set that has some overlap with Qi Gong but also has unique characteristics outside the realm of Qi Gong Other more advanced methods that I won't get into. Tai Ji Quan forms make use of Qi Gong principles in order to develop physical and internal strength and health, but there are many other methods used for martial and Nei Gong development. Some of the other methods of Tai Ji Quan training also use Qi Gong principles (ie some of the strengthening and weapons work) but Tai Ji Quan is a comprehensive martial art and is most certainly NOT simply a form of Qi Gong.

Ahem.... Qi Gong perhaps, definitely not Tai Ji Quan. Sorry but there is just too much inaccurate information to accept that statement...

I agree.

I don't know the answer to that question. I've pondered that for quite a while and I'm very conflicted. I think it's paradoxical. In the beginning, there is a sense of not being good enough and needing to improve. That's the natural tendency of the mind - to want to become something other than it is already. As the practice deepens there may come a time when we see that there is no separation between self and other, between human and environment. Dao is what it is and manifests as it does. Who is the self that desires to improve and what is it improving? Both are already Dao and already perfect. How can "I" improve Dao? How can "I" improve what I already am? And yet if I didn't start down that path of self-improvement would I ever have an insight into that? So when I get to that point practice seems useless and the struggle arises - why practice? I have no answers, just lots of questions. But I do still practice.... and it feels like the right thing to do. But improving upon self? Stay with that question, ffvii - it's much more valuable to you than our answers... I really appreciate the fact that you are asking such excellent questions on this forum _/\_

I have a stretching/warmup routine that I learned from my Shifu. I usually follow that with Tai Ji Quan form, some Nei Gong, and Qi Gong (if I have the time). That's my daily routine (along with meditation). I alway felt like I was reasonably limber but my back has always been an issue, very tight especially in the mornings and after strenuous exercise (like very physical push hands and san da). I've been plagued with low back pain since an injury about 20 years ago. I recently discovered a ridiculously simple routine that I do every morning that has improved my back pain dramatically. I increased may hamstring stretching until I was able to easily press my open palms to the floor with my knees fully extended. Now I simply get in a hot shower first thing in the morning, press my palms to the floor, and take it beyond that - bending the elbows. For a while I would feel it mostly in my hamstrings. Once my hamstrings got loose enough I would feel it in the low back and pelvis where the lumbar, sacral, and pelvic muscles attach. I relax there and let the hot water run on my back. When I get out of the shower, I do side to side whips - very loose, feeling the lumbar and sacral areas loosen and pop and crack until it's fully relaxed. That's it. My back feels great! I think the key was to loosen the hamstrings.

The glass that is half full was once half empty The full half is also half empty. So the half empty side must be half full. Now I don't know if I am an optimist or a pessimist!

You still haven't answered my very simple question which makes me think that you don't want to for some reason. That's fine. You don't have to. I asked to gain an understanding as to what level of training you have achieved with your Shifu. Your comments about reverse abdominal breathing and Tai Ji Quan tell me that you don't understand how and why it is used (and essential) in developing martial Tai Ji Quan skills. That's fine. Not everyone has the opportunity to learn Tai Ji Quan from a teacher that understands the martial training. Just because you haven't learned something in your books or from your teacher doesn't mean the 鬼佬 don't have good teachers! You really ought to spend more time studying Tai Ji Quan and Dao meditation with a Shifu before considering yourself an authority on those subjects. They are not equivalent to Qi Gong.

That's a wonderful post and a profound insight. "My lesson from that situation was that knowledge does not help without practice. Each person is different so attempting to make a 'One and only way to enlightenment" is impossible." I'm currently listening to an analysis of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. The teacher does a great job of analyzing the language and syntax and really helps one to penetrate the sutras but it's painfully obvious that the teacher has not done the practice so he really doesn't quite get what he's teaching. Based on your post, I think that you have no need to feel On the other hand, it's nice to approach this stuff with a beginner's mind. Namaste

You didn't answer my question. What breathing pattern did your Shifu teach you when learning how to develop Fa Jin?

I'm not disappointed at all but I have a better understanding of your level of training and understanding. What breathing pattern were you taught to use when learning how to generate Fa Jin? Thanks

Do you mean to say that your Tai Ji Quan Shifu never mentioned the practice? Or do you mean that you have not come across it in your reading?

Very cool - nice to see. Thanks

I'm sorry that you are too closed-minded to listen to someone who is sharing with you what they have learned from a Daoist master. My teacher is from Taiwan and I have learned from him directly. What I am telling you has nothing to do with books. It is the real deal. If you are not interested, it is your loss. Be well and good luck with your practice.

There is no point in trying to help those who choose not to learn.

Good point - body awareness is very valuable and something I've come to late. Tai Ji Quan and meditation have helped develop that a lot for me. It's something I did not take to naturally - too wrapped up in the head for too many years. Oh yeah, quite a bit further than we realize. Perhaps as far as we can think.

The irony is that it doesn't believe in you either!

Last week, my son decided ~ 3am to fly to Florida and visit my parents who he hasn't seen in a while. Totally spur of the moment. Drove to the airport, bought a ticket and took off. Told me he was feeling very antsy, unsettled, had to get far away from here. A few hours after his flight left, our area was hit by the first significant earthquake in my lifetime. A few days after that, hurricane Irene. Hmmm... does anyone think that's a coincidence? Neither my son or I do.

Actually, may I ask a question? Do you study with a teacher or from books?

I'll start - this is a topic close to my heart. This is about the skill of 'listening' I got this from reading and listening to J Krishnamurti and Anthony Demello primarily though I'm sure it's not unique to them. When we 'listen,' we typically do a few things - 1) Have in mind an opinion or idea of whatever it is the speaker is addressing 2) Compare what the speaker is saying to our opinion or bias and either agree or disagree 3) And as soon as we have determined that we agree or disagree, nothing else penetrates 4) We then focus on counter-arguments to defend our position and try to convince the speaker of our position 5) And we are thinking of things that reinforce our position - it's a very closed and defensive posture of the mind So in reality, we rarely listen in a way that fosters learning, sharing, or collaboration. Another method for listening is to first empty our mind of preconceived notions, opinions, ideas, expectations, or objectives. Is this possible? If you spend the time working at it you will find out for yourself. Don't take my word for it, don't agree or disagree, just open yourself to the possibility. If you can do that, you are already heading in the right direction. So - I can open myself to what is being presented - listen to the words, read the body language, take in the surroundings, feel the intent and non-verbal clues in the presentation. I can listen from a relaxed and receiving posture rather than from a position of opinion, bias, response, the closed and defensive posture. And then I can just absorb what is being presented and see how it settles in me and how i relate to it. I can try it on for size, I can actually put it on trial in my life. See how it works, see if it holds up to investigation. Then I can choose whether it works for me or not. It is my choice based on my own personal examination. I know, rather than believe. I am not accepting something based on a perception of authority, I am choosing based on direct experience. So if I listen with my ideas and opinions and bias, I am listening from a perspective of all of my conditioning and automated patterns of behavior and response. But if I can be successful at listening without the distraction of all of that then "I" am no longer in the way. There is just listening. And that's when the magic can happen.

Very cool Stig. I wonder if the Anishinnabek's have the intention of connecting with the aboriginal people's of your country. I've studied the history of the First Peoples of North America a bit. It's a deep wound in my heart.

I certainly do, I think it has to do with our tendency to look for ways to have reality support our opinions and biases rather than letting those go and looking straight into the truth.

No, I am not 100% Yang. My answer to the original question. Man ≠ Yang Female human being ≠ Yin Yin and Yang simply describe relative characteristics, they do not define human beings in their entirety. I'll have to take it that you knew nothing about the Yin and the Yang. Period. No offense, the issue was being addressed but not you. Please don't quote me out of context to change the meaning of my post. Let me clarify in case you misunderstood. Perhaps I was not as clear as I thought. Man is not 100% Yang and Woman is not 100% Yin, that is the meaning of my use of ≠. All human beings have Yin and Yang aspects. There are women with very strong Yang energy and men with very strong Yin energy. All possible variations exist. You are unsuccessfully trying to oversimplify the nature of man/woman/Yin/Yang to support your ideas about homosexuality. Perhaps I know nothing about Yin and Yang, that's certainly possible. I am not an authority on anything, other than perhaps wasting time on the computer. But I do question your grasp of Daoist ideology in its entirety based on your comment: That is about as far from Daoist ideology as I can imagine. Would you care to elaborate on this conclusion and where it comes from?