doc benway

Agreed, I'm simply trying to clarify our terms For me the word visualize connotes someone doing something, creating an image or creating circumstances that give rise to an image. There is a subject-object duality there, an engagement of the samsaric mind. I'm not going to insist anyone accept my definition but I do think it's useful to discriminate between the process of creating a mental image and experiencing the spontaneous arising of pure vision, be that light or more defined imagery like deities, mandalas, and so forth. I also believe that what Adam is cautioning practitioners against is utilizing visualization as an active mental process which is how I'm defining the word. His primary point seems to be to allow things to happen spontaneously, without fabrication. I've never spoken to him so, of course, I could be mistaken.

From the dzogchen perspective, those visions are considered impure. Not spontaneous expressions of the base but fabrications of mind even if the mind is very still and spacious.

Just as there is the assertion being discussed that one cannot use visualization to do anything useful in terms of real inner accomplishment [sic], it is an error to call the spontaneous visions that some are mentioning in this thread “visualization.” They are not IMO. They cannot be created by a practitioner or master or even the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Only your own primordial and pure nature can create these spontaneous visions. By definition in the dzogchen teachings any intent, any effort, any subject-object discrimination whatsoever means the experience is not spontaneous and not a sign of anything special. Spontaneous visions (dzogchen - thodgal) are a display of the essence of mind and an indicator of one’s ability to rest in the nature of mind with stability. That is all that they really mean. This is an important part of the training and includes things like sky and sun gazing and dark retreat. I suggest that it is confusing to use one word to describe these two different phenomena. In the case of such spontaneous visions and also the path of connecting with and resting in the nature of mind to find them, I agree there is no path. It must be allowed, never done. The most frequently used word when I guide is rest. Truthfully most of us are not in that presence or engaged in (not)trying most of the time so what do we do? Working with the body, speech, and mind is our only way forward, or perhaps the best use of the time at least, and we all need different things to support us in these times - like posting here… 🤣 In this spirit I’d say that essentially all practices can contribute to this fruition we are pointing at (but haven’t defined) but none of them are assured. At some point though we need to let go fully of trying for a result using any method, and find it. On that I agree fully with Adam. PS - and it goes beyond the visual, another source of confusion using this word. Any (and all) experience or combination related to the 6 senses can be a vision or a visualization. PPS - the view, practice, and fruition are all explicitly different between dzogchen/mahamudra and theravada, so we are always comparing apples to oranges PPPS - vision in the dzogchen paradigm is divided into impure and pure for sake of discussion. Impure vision is fabricated vision and visualization is therefore always impure, even the most perfect visualization of the most perfect mandala! Pure vision is spontaneous and cannot be created or destroyed, the dark room shows that, it is a direct experience of the base, of the non-interference of mind, of wu wei.

I generally agree with you but on this point.... not so much.

My comments below are not directed at anyone particular. I'll leave it to all of you to evaluate your own potential teachers. Dwai's comment is important and equally applicable to spiritual and martial practices. When we progress in a practice there hopefully comes a point where we feel we get it, we understand the mechanics and the process. If we do it right, we begin to see the positive effects of our training in our lives and relationships. At that point people will sometimes feel a pressing desire to share these practices so that others can experience similar benefits. Some will even act on that without the knowledge or support of their teacher(s), assuming they even have one. This can be a trap! It can lead to doing ourselves and others a serious disservice! My own experience is that if we continue practicing, in time we will come up against challenges in life that test our practice and understanding. We may begin to question ourselves, our teacher, the tradition, etc... We may identify subtle or not so subtle things in ourselves that need attention. As others have pointed out, this is NOT a linear process. There may come a point where we realize... I'm not ready or not interested to teach at all! Equally important, if we do not have a certain degree of realization ourselves, there will come a time when we will not be able to support our students or we may misguide them. They may surpass our realization or the obstacles they encounter may be beyond our ability to understand or address. The worst situation is if we do not recognize this and continue to misguide ourselves and others. IMO, this is all a normal process of development and maturation of our practice, our understanding, our ability to share the teachings, and our fruition. We come to see that this is truly a lifelong process. We begin to have a deeper respect for our teacher(s) and, in particular, the lineage and teachings they represent. We begin to see the depth and value of transmission, empowerment, and so forth. Anyway... these are some things that have come up for me and for other practitioners, instructors, and teachers I know and have known over time. Caveat emptor!

Festivus

I would be a bit careful about adding thodgal to the discussion as it does not involved visualization at all and could lead to confusion.

IMO/E No and no. Visualization, at least in the Bön teachings, is never an isolated practice, and I don’t use that word lightly. Those who become proficient/transformed through tantra don’t often abandon it as it is so effective and the benefits so worthwhile to others and to one’s own personal growth as a practitioner.

Provocateur par excellence! 🤣

Buddhas and Bodhisattvas can take on surprising and unexpected forms. My teacher once suggested the (somewhat unlikely) possibility that Donald Trump was a Bodhisattva! It definitely wrinkled some brows among his students!

What better way to generate buzz in our social media culture?

Bless you dear @Apech for indulging my laziness! In my experience there is some degree of conditioning present in any prolonged and intensive repetition of human activity and the ngondro is no exception. His error, and that of others looking at the ngondro from the outside, is to not appreciate the effect such a process can have on breaking down the one being conditioned and loosening his/her grasp and sense of primacy. I think that appreciation can only come from direct experience. I'm very interested in your thoughts on this as well. What can be said about his casual dismissal of dzogchen/mahamudra other than to say that he has little or no understanding of the view, meditation, and conduct of dzogchen/mahamudra? It's arguably more accurate to state that the training of the forest tradition ends with day one of the dzogchen/mahamudra path... but I don't want to start a pissing contest on that point and I think it's somewhat of an unfair and unskillful comparison. It appears to me that his knowledge of the vajrayana and of dzogchen/mahamudra is theoretical or second hand and therefore inherently inaccurate and limited. Once again, I'd love to hear your take on this. I have a lot of respect for your experience, knowledge, and your ability to express both. One of the things I most respect about the masters of meditation and martial arts I've encountered is their resistance to commenting on or judging other individuals' attainment or methods and systems outside their area of expertise. I think it is a sign of wisdom and maturity, not to mention an easy way to avoid looking foolish. Take someone with some expertise in a given field, put them on a public stage, and give them an opportunity to wax poetic on things outside their specific field of expertise; more often than not they will put their foot in their mouth a few times. I think that is a trap that is easy to fall into for folks that are elevated in the public eye.

Some of those lamas think they’re above the law…

@Apech Do you recall approximately where in the interview this was mentioned? I listened to some but skipped around and must have missed that bit.

I agree that statement is true, not particularly controversial in the dzogchen community. I consider it as a blessing, divine if you will. I also think there’s truth in the converse - everything we have done in this and prior lives led to this samadhi, nothing was ever out of place or we might not be here; more precisely, we have never been so much as a hair’s breadth from our nature. i agree with you and there is also this in my tradition - once we gain some familiarity and stability in meditation, the instruction is to begin to allow the flies to be in the ointment and if your meditation is not disturbed the practice is correct, even hippos - it’s called integration. The teaching says ‘when the flame is small it is good to protect it, when larger it is good to test it, and when blazing it is the hippos that feed it and help the connection and stability to deepen and broaden. Yes and they can also be used to strengthen when we’re ready. We begin by intentionally engaging in virtuous activity (mantras, prayers, circumambulation), then neutral activity (eating, sleeping, dreaming, crapping, sexing), and finally non-virtuous activity (this can be very controversial - nuff said for here). Yes initially but everything is integrated eventually….

reconsidered

My observation is that different people need different things at different times. Some aren’t ready to drop all supports right away. Whatever gets us closer is valid and precisely what we need in the moment. When we are ready to let go, I trust that we will. Until then it is good to work with what we can access in ourselves and with whatever methods our karma provides, here and now.

I voted yes because it’s clear to me that many people in multiple traditions have benefited from visualization practices over millennia. The questions for me are who benefits, certainly not everyone, and what is meant by visualization, as we may not all agree on a definition. Any question about whether or not a technique is useful in meditation is dependent on ‘who’ as much as ‘what’ IMO.

I hope you stay and simply steer clear of such "discussions." Your contributions here are valuable and appreciated. As Bill Bullard says...

My own bias is that when practices and teachings are being mixed, the value of lineage is diminished. For lineage to have value the teachings must be precise and as pure as possible. I'm not saying there is no value to a mix and match approach, it may be just what the right student needs. On the other hand, it does not have the authenticity, credibility, and confidence inspired by receiving teachings from a lineage holder for me.

A few unsolicited words about lineage. Geof will need to answer these questions, of course, but I want to share some thoughts FWIW. There is no need to posit anything even remotely supernatural regarding lineage and yet it is far more than simply a corpus of knowledge. In my experience, lineage plays an important role in experiential practices. In dealing with experiential practices, it is one thing to gain knowledge and another altogether to gain skill and to be assured that one has understood and integrated knowledge and technique to such a degree that it can be expressed effectively. It is easy to describe a taiji technique or meditation practice for someone. Totally different to make sure they know how to practice properly and actually become proficient. On top of that, how to know they have the capacity to pass it along in turn to others correctly. Lineage insures that the material is not only passed along but passed along in a way that insures accuracy, efficacy, and preservation of the original intent. This has been an interesting discussion. I find that I learn far more about those posting than I do about Adam Mizner and Damo Mitchell. That's generally the way of things here for me. I learn more about members, including myself, through our posts than I learn about whatever the subject matter may be. There are exceptions of course but not many.

I recommend you take the warnings seriously. Sooner or later meditation and energetic practices will open you up to any repressed or suppressed trauma and darkness. The transformation and growth promised by these methods require it. Energetic practices and meditative focus can intensify the experience and consequences. In my experience, a very small number of people interested in these practices stick with them long enough to see any real changes in themselves. Even fewer have negative effects. Nevertheless, a little caution goes a long way.

While being bilingual can be a big advantage, it does not mean your conclusions are unbiased. Everyone is biased. It’s wonderful that your point of view has shifted. Flexibility is valuable, both physically and mentally. In my experience, politicians always have time for politics - internal and external, it’s what they do. Mottos are cheap and rarely more than propaganda. What counts is whether or not actions reflect those noble words. I hope you are correct and the CCP is becoming more and more caring towards the people. Certainly that is not the case in the US where I live. It seems we are going the opposite direction here. You are telling it as you see it, not as it is. Different people will see it differently and each perspective is unique and valid, IMO. I am not judging you but hopefully pointing out that your perspective is not the only one that has validity.

@Giles The forum currently does not give members the option to delete posts and threads, only hide. Even the mods are discouraged from deleting anything. This is all to preserve the integrity of posts others may have added to the thread and also to allow mods/admin to see what has been posted in the event of a conflict or issue of some sort. If you want to delete something, I can help. Either post here or send me a PM. Of note, if you hide something you will not be able to see it in order to unhide it unless you have moderator permissions (which you do do your own PPF). Thanks and welcome back!

@mcoolio Should be good to go, enjoy!