doc benway

Why?

Very nicely stated (as always!). Do you practice Taijiquan?

The ideas people tend to get from videos like this are not conducive to a serious focus on personal cultivation. Cultivating Qi is a much more mundane process that does not benefit from fanciful ideas like projecting Qi and burning holes in paper. All of that may, in fact, be possible. I never stated that is is not. However, the way to explore that is to begin practicing cultivation and see what comes of it. Tooling around on the internet for video demonstrations is counter-productive to Qi cultivation. This is only my personal opinion and is based in my own experience with cultivation. That is all competely true. And recognizing a fake does not mean that someone has a strong belief necessarily, it simply means that the demonstration is not convincing. What is lacking here is any real evidence or proof. It's just a single youtube video that looks to me like a phony.

Yes, perhaps I am naive. And perhaps the one who believes the Chinese youtube video of the Qi laser is not! Nevertheless, I could be completely mistaken... it wouldn't be the first time, nor the last. I like to maintain what I consider to be a healthy balance of openness and scepticism. I don't ask you or anyone else to agree with me or adopt my approach - it's mine alone and it works reasonably well for me. As far as meditation, I don't really meditate on concepts or ideas. My approach is different than that.

Came across this youtube video after seeing this guy's combo last night... pretty good bassist

I like Chi Dragon's translation: 1. Ruling a big nation is like frying a small fish. 2. With the presence of Tao beneath heaven, 3. The ghosts cannot extent their power. 4. It's not only that the ghosts cannot extent their power, 5. But its power cannot harm anyone. 6. It was not even that their power cannot harm anyone, 7. A ruler also does no harm to anyone. 8. Since both do no mutual harm to each other, 9. Then, the virtue of peace was returned to the people. Some thoughts - When you cook a small fish you basically don't mess with it. You don't scale it, clean it, filet it, or alter it in any way. You fry it, pop it in your mouth and eat it whole - done. So ruling a big nation is like frying a small fish means don't mess with it too much. Don't get into the insides and fool around. This theme pervades the DDJ. Approach it as one organic whole, don't try to impose your ideas on it, just eat the whole thing and it's perfect. The ghosts I think refer to the various ills we can encounter, it doesn't need to have a supernatural connotation although I'm sure it did when it was written. So the ruler doesn't interfere, and through his non-interference he doesn't facilitate or enable the problems that inevitably result from leaders trying to "make a difference." And when the ruler is benevolent, the people respect and appreciate the non-intervention. So everyone is happy.

I get it about wealth and fame not being #1. It's how I've lived my life and taught my kids to do the same. And I agree that this is the attitude necessary to achieve a very high level of personal cultivation. And once that is achieved, do you think those folks who are so highly cultivated that they forego all concerns with wealth and fame are making youtube videos showing how they can burn a hole in paper with their Qi projection? The thing that bugs me is this sort of fantasy does not encourage people to take their cultivation seriously. It's exploitation and foolishness. It's what causes many people to scoff at some of these concepts and not take them seriously. Much better to meditate or study the Classics than search the web for videos of Qi projection, that's all I'm trying to say.

Good point When I renounce something, I'm tied to it, I'm attached to it's absence. If I can see it, and my desire, for what they truly are there is no need for renunciation. That's liberation.

I agree

We're discussing Qi Gong following Tai Ji principles, not Fa Jin. One can still maintain Tai Ji and practice breathing with the arms overhead. This is achieved in many ways - raise and lower on the toes, sway side to side, rotate side to side, raise and bend the knees, and so on. I didn't mean that you would hold completely still. This is a common component of multiple Qi Gong sets. Nevertheless, if you feel the raising and lowering of the arms overhead works for you, please continue to use that. I'm not an authority in Qi Gong, just offering some basic criticism as requested.

I think you're correct here. One thing to be aware of is that all of this philosophy was added to martial arts after the fact by scholars. Not everyone will agree on this point but I'm convinced it is true. Xingyiquan was a martial art first and foremost. As scholarship became increasingly important (esp in the late 19th century) and hand to hand combat faded, it became very fashionable to examine and extol all of the wonderful philosophical and theoretical aspects of the arts. Here is an example, IMO, of simply applying basic Daoist cosmology to Xingyiquan and the same can be done for all arts. Not that it's not good stuff - I don't mean to imply that, but it's very general. Similarly, it appears that all of the 5 element theory was applied to XIngyi after the fact - not as a fundamental and formative component. Perhaps this is something we can explore in detail in the future. Once you get into the more specific songs relating to Xingyiquan (such as from the Mother Fist writings) then things will get more interesting. Maybe we should put those off until we can get something organized. I'm currently in discussion with the mods about this and I'd like to get input from Taomeow when she's got some time.

Sceptic is not my identity, nor do I identify with any such movement. Finally, I don't practice it. What I meant to communicate is that based on my prior conditioning and my current understanding, I tend not to accept or believe things very readily that are not in some way observable, credible, or consistent with my personal experience. My background is in Western science followed by about 10 years of study and training in Daoist arts. I try to have a very open mind but I try not to be gullible. I don't like to "believe" things or "disbelieve" things when I can avoid it. I prefer to know or simply not know rather than to believe. I was using sceptic more as a descriptive term of my tendency, nothing more. Thanks for calling me on that unskillful statement. I'm not advocating this position for anyone else, just stating what exists for me. This demonstration just feels like a phony to me. If someone were able to so readily burn paper with their Qi in what looks like a scientific setting, we would be seeing much broader evidence of this - peer reviewed papers, more organized demonstrations, and so on. This would make these folks rich and famous if it were true. You can talk around that but it's just the way I see it.

Hi Z - thank you for inviting me! I practice Xingyiquan but it's secondary to Taijiquan and I haven't yet read much of the Xingyi classics... I'll be happy to offer some thoughts This is basically just a brief summary of fundamental Daoist cosmology. Personally, I've come to look at this as independent of time. It's written to sound as if this is all something that has occurred in the past. My personal interpretation (and I think it's consistent with some things being understood in modern physics) is that this is a description of the ongoing process of existence that occurs in each and every instant, and in each and every one of us. Just different layers of present existence. At some level there is this shapeless, nameless, misty turbid ________ (fill in a word - emptiness, void, Wu Ji) but we are reminded that it is non-dual (to use the Hindu term), that is - there is no separation or boundaries or distinction. This is not really the same as saying one. The Hindus and later the Buddhists were careful not use the word one because that has a connotation of something fixed, definable, measurable, and concrete. The Daoists aren't afraid to use the word one because they spend plenty of time telling us not to get attached to the names, definitions, and so on. One is just another way for the Daoist to say non-dual, IMO. And so there is a continuity of Qi (Qi being a nebulous concept that sort of means stuff of the universe but it's clearly not a quantifiable stuff). We can think of it as the energy that animates the universe or the life force or perhaps the awareness (heart-mind), strings. I don't know - this is something that bears much personal meditation and study. The important thing is that it is whole and continuous. It is the source of life (but again, it is undefinable, it is just a label, so the Buddhists don't need to get their panties twisted). This is often referred to as pre-Heaven or even pre-Natal because it is rudimentary, unformed, undefined. Sort of like the embryonic cells that can give rise to anything. Notice it mentions 'no Yi' prior to Tai Ji - this is critical, IMO. I interpret this as implicating the Yi (our human mentation - mind of intent) in the genesis of existence (d-d-d-dependent o-o-o-o-origination, oops - sorry). So when the Yi comes into play there is recognition which is distinction. Recognition of boundaries. Tai Ji (Yin Yang) comes into existence (but again, don't think of it as happening in time, it always is and is not at the same time) along with living things and this is telling us very clearly that all manifestations of the Dao are inseparable. They just seem to be separate because of the nature of our mind which distinguishes Yin from Yang. So we are admonished to recognize that we are just exactly this - everything, the whole ball of wax. We are indistinguishable. And it is our option to cherish and nurture this life force in every manner we can, or we can be foolish and wasteful and squander it. This has many connotations, some very general, but also is a specific recommendation to the martial artist to conserve Jing (vital essence). That is, no sex or at least only very sparing. This is a requirement for many Nei Gong an martial Qi Gong work. Just my interpretation, I hope that helps in some way. For anyone having a serious interest in studying this stuff, YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST BEGIN PRACTICING MEDITATION NOW Otherwise, it'll just be word salad. Sometimes it'll make some sense, sometimes not. But meditation WILL give you insight. I guarantee it, no other way. It's slow going though, be patient. PS - these songs don't come from The Motherfist of Xingyiquan by Jiang Rong-Qiao, I'm not sure where they're from

We haven't even grazed the surface of Zhuang Zi - I think the intention is to get that up and running once all the Dao De Jing chapters have been addressed at least a bit. At least that's the scuttlebutt I read.

I don't buy it, not even a little.... But I'll admit I'm a skeptic.

I really resonate with Anthony Demello's definition of spirituality - spirituality means waking up. Waking up to who and what we are and what is going on in our lives - cutting through the bullshit. So shit, therefore, is a very important part of that and must be recognized in all it's myriad forms...

Thanks bud, I appreciate that.

Than you very much for sharing this. It's a nice concept. If you're open to constructive criticism, I'll offer some. Some of these observations may appear subtle or overly critical but I think they're important, provided that your intention is to observe Taiji principles. 1. Starting hands - your step out with the left foot was heavy - no distinguishing full from empty. Raising the hands above the shoulder level tenses the shoulder muscles and restricts the breath. If you want to do breathing practice with the arms above the shoulders, I would suggest that you raise them and keep them there for several cycles rather than raising and lowering repeatedly. This allows the arm to settle in and the shoulder girdle to relax. 2. Lateral hands - too much inconsistency and disconnection between upper and lower. The waist and kua were not leading the upper body. The shifting of the weight relative to movement of the arms was not consistent and smooth. 3. Diagonal hands - again, I'd like to see a bit more waist and allow the hands and arms to follow more passively. Also, I wouldn't straighten the legs quite so much on rising. Keeping a bit more of a bend creates more fluidity and strength. In general, in your side to side shifting of the weight you are pushing off with the full leg before bending the empty knee. This causes your dan tian to rise and fall. This violates an important Taijiquan principle and cause a loss of strength and rooting. There can be up and down, rising and sinking, if desired but it is important to bend the empty knee before pushing from the full. It allows you to stay rooted and prevents double weighting and improves song and flow. Overall, I'd like to see the arms more passive, the shoulders more song, and the waist and kua much more active. Finally, your stepping needs to be more mindful with proper distinction of full and empty. I hope you take my criticism in the constructive spirit with which it is offered.

Thanks M, yeah it's not so much about agreeing with each other or causing someone else to shift their point of view. It's more about an exchange or sharing of perspectives that may just help both of us to broaden our horizons... Your point of view has certainly helped me to more deeply examine my own, thanks for that!

Fascinating post. I appreciate you sharing that - I've never heard the experience described in that way. I would echo Audio Healing's advice. If you have suffered with delusions and auditory hallucinations for years, it would be prudent to connect with a mental health professional that can help guide you and monitor you. If you begin to get farther from reality at some point, you will not be aware of it and that's when there is real trouble. You're not crazy unless you think you're sane sort of thing... Visual hallucinations are extremely rare in schizophrenia, most never experience them. The issue is reality testing - you have been doing it effectively so far but if that ability suddenly is compromised, you're in trouble. Schizophrenia generally starts in the late teens/early twenties but can be progressive and it's worth getting some attention now, while you are in a good place and your therapist can really get to know you for who you are, not just see your illness.... Having a safety net while you are controlling the issue through meditation can't hurt. Just my $.02.

This is a really nice description of the experience. The idea is to simply continue to observe. Sometimes you're sitting on the bank of a stream watching a leaf float by. The next moment you realize that you're sitting on the leaf and don't even know how long you've been there or how far you've come. Then you back track and see what made you step onto the leaf and look at the twists and turns in the stream... and on it goes.... So the idea is simply to continue to patiently observe the course of your thoughts as they come and go. And when they catch you up, sooner or later you realize this and go back to observation. One easy way to look at it is simply to avoid adding to the conversation. Just listen, pay attention, don't contribute anything. There's more than enough there already. Over time, the observing mind will begin to stabilize and step onto the leaf less frequently and for shorter periods of time. Then other things come up... As far as preventing the stream from developing in the first place, I don't think this is a productive way to approach the exercise. It simply creates conflict and disappointment. Just watch and perfect your skills of patience. Over time you may notice patterns, you may get frustrated and angry, and you may eventually find it entertaining. You may even begin to like yourself more...

The difficulty for me is that it is completely gratuitous. I am going to breath and move in a certain manner, believe deeply in my bones that this will change my DNA. Then perhaps one day I will say - I've done it! I've changed my DNA. OK. Sure. And maybe I also changed the ratio of hydrogen to helium in the sun while I was at it. So unless we are looking at the DNA before and after the change and verifying that change, we are not changing our DNA. Certainly we are doing something. And if we are using breath and body movement and intent, we could say that we are working with the Qi, I'm fine with that and it's a part of my life. But to make the leap - to try and take an empiric and experiential process of Qi cultivation and take it into the realm of science where there are very consistent and reproducible methods to be utilized degrades both experiences in my view. If we are not going to utilize the scientific method then we are not in the realm of science, we are in the realm of pseudoscience. And this is the realm of Intelligent Design and the Inquisition. It's not a realm that I choose to inhabit or acknowledge.

It seems to me that an assumption is being made here - specifically, that prior to human or "higher organized" life forms existing on earth there was no conscious awareness. This existence of the universe absent some conscious awareness seems to be the position from which objective existence is being supported. We currently inhabit a universe which is suffused with awareness. That awareness takes on so many unique and surprising forms that we are really completely in the dark about what is and what is not aware and in what fashion. All of our understanding of awareness is limited to people, mammals, other animals and creatures on earth.... that's it, life forms with a level of awareness that closely approximates our own. And the further we look, the more strange and incomprehensible are the manifestations of awareness. To my mind (and I'm fairly strongly in the scientific camp mind you), our understanding and ability to recognize and measure awareness is infantile. Awareness may be hierarchical, so that the Earth itself can be thought of as possessing an awareness. You can liken it to the human body. Each of our cells have individual "lives" - they behave in certain ways reacting to appropriate stimuli. They live and die. They reproduce. They fight battles and wars (infection, cancer). We have no way to relate to what the awareness of a cell or much more complex and organized life forms like plants, worms, insects, birds, whales, and so on. And some of these life forms have amazingly complex social interactions and behaviors we really don't understand at all. We make assumptions only. So the Earth, as a living organism, is composed of us and we can experience and comprehend the Earth's awareness and intelligence as much (little ) as we are aware of that of our cells (or they of ours). That doesn't even get into extraterrestrial awareness. We seem to be making the assumption that subjectivity depends on internal dialogue. This is what we assume makes us unique in terms of mentation. Is that true? Does awareness exist without internal dialogue? WIthout the thoughts? Without the pesky thought that claims the title of thinker and doer? Of course it does, absolutely. That is the basis of meditation. Awareness does not equal thought. And we have no way of knowing the internal dialogue, or lack of, in other species. Finally, the concept and experience of awareness that is not encapsulated within the cranium, as discussed in the thread on brain vs mind, is something that is germain here. I maintain that we live in a world that is conscious. Whether that consciousness can be pinned to my brain or something behind the curtain is not really important. Consciousness exists, there is no separation between man and universe (only artificially so) and so there is not separation between universe and consciousness. If we are aware and we are inseparable from our environment, then our environment is aware. The problem here is that intellectual arguments are no substitute for meditation. That is the way to really investigate this stuff.

I don't know if DNA could be changed or not but that would be very difficult to verify. It is extremely complex and expensive to analyze. I guess one would have to sample a certain amount from a person, then do the changing work, then measure again. Interesting concept. Everything else changes, DNA mutates spontaneously, why couldn't there be a way to change it intentionally?

A person with whom I share confidence, respect, and trust.