doc benway

For me, the Xin Xin Ming is a wonderful example of Daoist and Buddhist similarity and is one of my favorite writings. Traditionally attribute to the third Chinese Zen Patriarch Sengcan, but possibly written later, it's a must read for anyone interested in Chan, Zen, or Daoism (IMO)... It's readily available for free online such as here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/fm/fm.htm

You're correct that form and pushing alone aren't directly combat applicable, however... Form and push hands are actually critical to developing the skill you need to apply Tai Ji Quan for combat purposes. No other way. If you look at the classics, you'll find that Tai Ji Quan is based on some basic requrements - zhan, nian, lian, sui, bu diu, bu ding (stick, adhere, connect, follow, don't separate or resist). If you are not doing these things you're not doing Tai Ji Quan. These skills come from form and push hands. Actually, all forms of Tai Ji Quan teach this at the level where combat applications are taught. It's not unique to Chen style, it's the foundation of all martial Tai Ji Quan. It's more obvious in Chen style because it's incorporated in their forms. Yang, Wu, Chen Pan Ling, Guang Ping,... don't show it in the forms but rather teach it in solo and two person drills.

:standing ovation: IMO, it's more about the teacher and student than the style.

I would echo with a big, fat NO in general but there are exceptions. This was learned through experience I once had the unfortunate experience of getting into a debate with a rather fundamentalist <enter name of religion of your choice>. After a lengthy discussion, he was quite upset, broke down and told me that his belief was all he had to keep him steady. It was heartbreaking. People aren't always ready or interested in the truth. And are we really skillful enough to make that decision for them? It's a slippery slope... Similarly, Anthony Demello talks beautifully (as does Stuart Wilde) about what people need at any given time in their life. Wilde talks about people needing to hit rock bottom to learn a lesson or break through their cocoon and begin growing. Demello talks about being conflicted between fostering spiritual growth (which often requires a lot of pain before we wake up and make profound changes) and providing psychological support (he was a Jesuit, a spiritual advisor, and a psychotherapist from India) which mainly involves easing pain and suffering. Easing the suffering can prevent or delay spiritual growth... So the only time I do this is 1)when asked by someone I think is open enough, 2)when interacting with close friends who share this sort of stuff with me regularly, and 3)perhaps if I really saw that witholding some obvious support might be unhealthy for someone (but do I really have the authority and expertise to make that call???). Also, here on this forum I think that our presence and participation implies an interest in pursuing insight and growth and engaging in spiritual matters so I do think it's appropriate here. Nevertheless, I think it's critical that we develop a way of approaching this with eachother that is not only challenging but collaborative, supportive, and compassionate. That's just my opinion. Others differ on that last point quite a bit...

RAOTFLMAO!!! I knew there was something I liked about you...

Wu Ji and Emptiness? Tai Ji and Interdependent Origination? Zuo Wang and Za Zen? Buddhas and Daoist Immortals? I think this thread has great potential - thanks Seth.

I find the Buddhist and Daoist perspectives to be very similar and very complimentary. I don't really identify with one or the other, I use both where applicable to further my own understanding and practice. I'm happy to have both around. I find a few individuals to sometimes be annoying but not the philosophy or practice per se. That said, I've been spending most of my online time in the Taoist Discussion Forum and I think our members have done a great job at respecting the intent in that area.

It's a little commercialized and I have no personal connection but I really like the approach of Peter Fenner. http://www.radiantmind.net/ I was recently given a copy of a set of his cd's by a friend and really like the way he presents the material and guides the learner into meditation and awakening.

Even if the participants have the same gender there will Yin and Yang aspects to the relationship and the physical activity.

I think that the "first obstacle" will probably vary from person to person as meditation is very individual. For me, the first obstacle I can recall was thinking that I was not doing it correctly. There is a natural tendency for thoughts to arise and carry us away. After a while we expect to be able to control that and I found myself questioning whether I was doing it correctly because I wasn't seeing the progress I expected. This led to frustration and impatience early on and that took a while to come to terms with. It was easy for me to get onto the cushion and dedicate time to the practice... in the beginning. Making the time and staying consistent has been a real challenge for me at some times, not so much at others. But this was an obstacle that arose later, when the initial novelty and excitement had worn off.

I agree with you there. At the same time I do understand how having a familiarity and understanding of cultural, social, and language factors can have a big impact on how we interpret things. For example, I'm not a native Chinese speaker but I do some translation for my Shifu and it's fascinating to see the differences in how the Chinese and American mind work based on the structure of language. I don't want to get into it too much but the nature of alphabetical for symbological writing has a profound affect on how we approach meaning. Cultural and social factors can have similar impact on how we interpret and percieve things. I'm guessing that is Miro's point, at least in part. Miro - please correct me if I'm wrong.

This type of gazing is also incorporated in Daoist techniques. One common variant is to softly focus the eyes on the nose. It takes a while to get accustomed to disconnecting the visual input from the awareness but when that happens, meditating with the eyes open can be "easier" than with the eyes closed. WIth the eyes closed, the absence of visual stimulation causes the awareness to focus more on the internal dialogue and imagery. Good discovery bigbook. You may not have been the first but if you found it for yourself it's still a discovery and perhaps more valuable than when we are given it by someone else.

I'm going to agree with everyone. Philosophy literally means "love of wisdom" but more generally can be defined as an approach to understanding the general and fundamental questions and problems associated with existence. This doesn't mean that the understanding must be limited to verbal and intellectual understanding. Zhuang Zi tries to teach us wisdom. He also helps us to approach the fundamental problems and questions of existence. As Miro says, you cannot understand Zhuang Zi fully if you simply approach him intellectually or analytically. To take that a step further, I'll say that you cannot understand Daoism if you simply approach it intellectually or analytically. Western philosophers have tended toward and intellectual approach in general, so we tend to think of philosophers as intellectuals. Eastern philosophers are sometimes intellectual (Confucius) and sometimes more experiential (Zhuang Zi) and sometimes both (Lao Zi). So I have no problem referring to Zhuang Zi and Lao Zi as philosophers - they are lovers and teachers of wisdom. It is their methods that differ from the stereotypical Western intellectual philosopher. Mendelssohn - you may not bother to take the time to learn Tai Ji Quan but if you have an interest in understanding Daoism I would suggest you consider spending some time with some experiential practice such as meditation. And it doesn't have to be a specifically Daoist method for you to benefit. It will take your understanding of what the classics are trying to say to another level - I can guarantee that (if you haven't already, of course). I recognize that I'm making an assumption here.

===========Mod Team============ Let's keep the Dao De Jing chapter discussions in the sub-forum we have created for that purpose please. ==========Mod Team Out==========

------ Mod Team ----------- This topic has been moved to general discussion as it contains no elements or references specific to Taoist Discussion ------ Mod Team Out --------

Are you telling us that you're judging and discounting the insights hagar gains through personal work based on what you read in Charles Luk's book? Really? Reading that book makes you hagar's meditation teacher? Well, I guess that's what we ask for when we post on an open forum.

Meditation is hard to define and describe because there are so many different approaches and methods and because it occupies a realm where words don't matter. And at the same time there is common ground to all meditation. One description of meditation that may help you determine what you're looking for is that it involves awareness without the interference of mental constructs. Thoughts will be there, they come and go, but it's sort of like we step out of the role of being the thinker. It's what occurs between the thoughts and also during the thoughts but there is a dis-identification with the thinker. I don't in any way mean this to sound comprehensive or authoritative. I'm just hoping that helps you along your way. I think it's counterproductive to look at the purpose of meditation as clearing the thoughts. That creates a struggle, a conflict, and guarantees frustration and disappointment. The idea of meditation is more along the lines of understanding what thought is, where it comes from, seeing through it and what, if anything, lies beyond thought. There are methods that involve thoughts but that is just a stepping stone, a tool. Daoist methods mostly work with using the awareness to interact with the internal environment of the body, mind, and spirit and through that to connect with what is beyond. Buddhist methods are highly varied and involve a host of techniques - mantras, visualizations, internal work similar to Daoists, puzzling over impossible questions (koans), mindfulness practice, and a whole host of others. A consequence of meditation practice is that the mind becomes more tranquil and stabilizes over time with proper practice. Thoughts become less intrusive and less distracting. They cease being the master in a way but thought is a part of the human condition so I wouldn't get too committed to making them go away. Better to pay attention to them, avoid identifying and getting wrapped up in them, avoid adding to them. Just watch - investigate their true nature and source.

Enthusiastically accepted!

Whew! I get the feeling this is important to you Stig. I honestly don't have the time or energy to adequately (or even inadequately) respond to all or even some of your points and questions. I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect. It's just that the moderation and management of the site is not that important to me. I'm comfortable helping out by contributing a few extra hours a week that I can (?) spare. I'm happy to support Sean's vision and I really don't have the motivation to make any broad and sweeping changes on my own initiative. I feel bad not doing justice to your passionate and thorough dissection of my previous post but there are times when I simply need to pick and choose how to spend my time. As I get older, this becomes a more and more precious commodity. I disagree with some of your points, agree with others, and both agree and disagree with yet others. I like this place. It really hasn't changed that much in my estimation over the few years I've been involved. Maybe a little more mainstream and better organized. Perhaps a little less edgy and quirky. There used to be those folks that posted alot and some are gone and now there are others and in the future that will continue to change. It's just an internet forum. I get some good ideas here, I try and share some of my own, for better or worse. And I really would prefer to spend more time away with things like meditation, Tai Ji Quan, music, work, and family. I think some of the behavior here is worse than in other forums because we encourage a discussion of topics that other forums generally restrict or ban entirely. Namely, religion, spirituality, politics, and so on. Given what we discuss I think we do a pretty damn good job (not the mods but the forum in general). That said, Sean owns a private forum and I consider myself and the rest of us his guests. I have no interest in trying to suggest, encourage, intimidate, coerce, or pressure him to change the way he prefers to manage his house so I'm going to respectfully choose to just let this go. I agree 100% with self-moderation. I would have no problem if Sean dropped all rules and said- OK guys, have fun it's a free for all. I think I would still participate and simply disengage when I'm no longer comfortable in any given discussion. On the other hand, if Sean decided that he wanted to try and remake this forum as some socialistic utopian community like you advocate, I'd be equally fine with that. The bottom line is that I really don't care either way. To borrow from your brilliant topic in general discussion, I just don't give a shit. I offered to help because I wanted to give back a little something to the community I enjoy sharing with and that's about as far as it goes. Please accept my personal choice to disengage from this topic. As I read your post, I began formulating all of my replies and it dawned on me - it's just not worth it. You are, but not the subject matter. I just don't care enough about the method of moderation to engage in a complex debate about it. I don't mean to be rude and I mean no personal offense. Be well my friend.

This is interesting. I know exactly what you mean but I wonder if it is truly that we are pulled toward the "positive". The positive means we are judging and choosing - this is better than that. And yet the very thing that seems to be happening is a simple acceptance of this and that. Both without the judging and choosing. This simple being, rather than choosing, brings with it peace and tranquility but it is in the presence of both positivity and negativity. So after meditating for a while, I am more at peace even in the negative. Negative and positive aspects no longer affect me as much. I hope I'm making sense....

Stop wishing and you are there....

Sometimes I don't make myself very clear and sometimes I'm just plain wrong! Group hug? It'll be fun to discuss the Nei Jia classics in more detail at some point.

On that we agree entirely. Thank you for saying that.

No just me, and my few Chinese friends, training partners, and Shifu that I've discussed this with. If we should not extrapolate the meaning of Tai Ji to Tai Ji Quan, then how should we interpret Tai Ji Quan? I don't follow you. The characters Tai and Ji are used for a reason. The art was formerly known by other names but Tai and Ji were applied for a good reason. I agree that Tai Ji Quan is a combative martial art. Yin and Yang are not combative but the principals of Yin and Yang forms the basis of martial application in Tai Ji Quan. Yes, Tai Ji Quan is about the soft overcoming the hard but it's not just soft. It's plenty hard as well. It's about balance. I'm not ignoring the Quan, just trying to better understand how Tai Ji and Quan relate to one another and where the name comes from. I agree that we do not find martial significance in Tai Ji alone - I never implied that and I am careful to always refer to the art as Tai Ji Quan, never just Tai Ji, as you will see if you look at any of my posts. I agree with you here. Thanks for your response. Thanks very much for your thoughts, very helpful and instructive. I appreciate you showing me my unskillful interpretation. On the other hand, you say: "To be precise, taiji quan should be called liangyi quan (yin-yang fist) because it works with changes of yin and yang." This is my point exactly - it seems to me that here we are saying the same thing. The reason I substituted Yin and Yang for Tai Ji was because to many Westerners, Yin and Yang is a much more recognizable reference than Tai Ji. That said, I do understand the points you make about the usage of Tai Ji vs Yin Yang. I didn't mean Yin Yang as a literal translation but i do think it conveys more about the nature of the art to the average Westerner than does Tai Ji or Supreme Ultimate. Perhaps I use Yin Yang and Tai Ji too interchangeably. They are very closely related but I think you are right in pointing out that they're not interchangeable. I was making a good faith effort to try and explain something in a way that made sense to me. Does my post really make it seem that I have no understanding and no familiarity with the material at all? Perhaps I don't know as much as I think. My emphasis is much more on practice than theory. Nevertheless, you basically repeated exactly the point I was trying to make, namely: "To be precise, taiji quan should be called liangyi quan (yin-yang fist) because it works with changes of yin and yang." So I guess our understanding isn't as far removed as you suggest. I do appreciate your input and if I'm posting my ideas on the open forum you are welcome to make it your business.

What sort of being do you intend to be? Something other than human? The brain is wired to always look to become something other than it is - this gives us an enormous survival advantage. It also creates a huge psychological burden. Samahdi is to see through that and let go the "be-coming" and simply "be" The great evolution is to be what you already are. It seems that you are being tortured by the desires of others... curious. I think you are being tortured by your own desires and projecting. Desire can be overwhelming and painful. Fighting against it tends to reinforce and magnify it's power. Seeing through it robs it of power. I do understand your earlier point, tulku. There are many folks who use New Age spirituality as an excuse to indulge themselves. That is not the same as living one's life fully without denying oneself and yet without indulging. Daoism advocates a balanced life. No one laughs more deeply and satisfyingly than a Buddha. This is completely consistent with a worldly life as well as a sequestered life. It is not a matter of struggling against desire but understanding it. Try it.