doc benway

It's not a new name, that's the point. It's just a more accurate translation than Supreme Ultimate by far! And yes, I'm happy to use Tai Ji Quan.

I would like to give a little emphasis on Tai Chi Chuan to be a little more precise. Tai chi chuan = supreme ultimate fist = the martial art which involves in slow movements and slow breathing at the beginning level; and at the higher level, the breath goes deeper into the Dan Tian and the movements may be quicker. Another word, the breath was sunk deep and concentrated in the Dan Tian. Dan Tian simply means it is an imaginary location below the navel at the abdomen. It is not a physical tangible object. It was only a name given to this particular location. I'm going to challenge this definition of Tai Ji Quan because it's one of my pet peeves - it drives me nuts. I get a little too passionate about this stuff... my cross to bear. Tai Ji is not well represented by "Supreme Ultimate," that's a terrible translation. It is a passable literal translation for Tai 太 and Ji 極 as independent characters, but it does not impart any of the meaning of the compound word. Tai means big, far, high, great and Ji means extreme, furthest, ultimate (as in the end of something), or pole. When you put the two simple characters together, 太 極, the compound actually means Opposite Extremes or Polar Opposite as in the north and south pole or the ends of a magnet. When a native Chinese speaker sees the word Tai JI, he does not think "supreme ultimate", he thinks Yin and Yang. Tai Ji is a word which connotes the inherent dual nature of experience. Everything can be thought of as having Yin and Yang components. These aspects define each other. Cold and hot define each other as do ugly and pretty, dark and light and so on. It's right out of Dao De Jing and basic Daoist cosmology. I know everyone here knows this so why do we keep calling 太 極 Supreme Ultimate? Just a silly convention, IMO. So Tai Ji Quan 太 極 拳 means Yin Yang Fist or Yin Yang Boxing. For some reason, this definition has never gained popularity in the West but it is a much more accurate approximation of what the Chinese characters are saying than "Supreme Ultimate" Fist which to the Western ear sounds like the Best and Greatest Martial Art. That may well be true and is subjective opinion at best, but it's not a good interpretation of the meaning of the characters 太 極 拳 Tai Ji Quan is the application of this very principle of Yin and Yang to combat. Taking advantage of the opponent's hard force through softness (yielding and sticking). Distinguishing full from empty and using that against the opponent. Avoiding so called double-weighting. Using short force against long and so on. So I would strongly encourage folks to think Yin Yang Boxing rather than Supreme Ultimate Fist when they read the words Tai Ji Quan 太 極 拳 Just my very biased and possibly erroneous opinion because, after all, I don't speak Chinese!

I'm afraid I don't quite fit a category either. I'm a bit of a spiritual mongrel.

I used to have a huge book collection. Now, after I read a book I generally give it away and ask the next owner to pass it on when they are finished (though it's up to them really). I still hold onto books that I think are good resources for future study and also a few books that I really like and want to save for someone special or to read again. I've probably gotten rid of 80% of my books. Most of them were given to the local VA Hospital for vets and their families. I've save most of what I consider my better "spiritual" works.

Interesting description hagar, especially your discussion of the body "added on" to the insubstantial "point in space." My nei dan experiences have been very similar. In fact, this has been the source of recognizing the separation, if you will, of mind and brain. This was questioned in another thread. Not something one can really relate in words but I think you'll know what I'm referring to.

I think it is also. The same arguments and viewpoints. 99.99% certain Interesting that he's back again to tell us that he shouldn't be here because he's way beyond any of our levels. I truly wish you peace tulku - I think you're in a lot of pain and looking for a way out. Hopefully you'll find it in your asceticism. Acceptance is even better...

Why?

Very nicely stated (as always!). Do you practice Taijiquan?

The ideas people tend to get from videos like this are not conducive to a serious focus on personal cultivation. Cultivating Qi is a much more mundane process that does not benefit from fanciful ideas like projecting Qi and burning holes in paper. All of that may, in fact, be possible. I never stated that is is not. However, the way to explore that is to begin practicing cultivation and see what comes of it. Tooling around on the internet for video demonstrations is counter-productive to Qi cultivation. This is only my personal opinion and is based in my own experience with cultivation. That is all competely true. And recognizing a fake does not mean that someone has a strong belief necessarily, it simply means that the demonstration is not convincing. What is lacking here is any real evidence or proof. It's just a single youtube video that looks to me like a phony.

Yes, perhaps I am naive. And perhaps the one who believes the Chinese youtube video of the Qi laser is not! Nevertheless, I could be completely mistaken... it wouldn't be the first time, nor the last. I like to maintain what I consider to be a healthy balance of openness and scepticism. I don't ask you or anyone else to agree with me or adopt my approach - it's mine alone and it works reasonably well for me. As far as meditation, I don't really meditate on concepts or ideas. My approach is different than that.

Came across this youtube video after seeing this guy's combo last night... pretty good bassist

I like Chi Dragon's translation: 1. Ruling a big nation is like frying a small fish. 2. With the presence of Tao beneath heaven, 3. The ghosts cannot extent their power. 4. It's not only that the ghosts cannot extent their power, 5. But its power cannot harm anyone. 6. It was not even that their power cannot harm anyone, 7. A ruler also does no harm to anyone. 8. Since both do no mutual harm to each other, 9. Then, the virtue of peace was returned to the people. Some thoughts - When you cook a small fish you basically don't mess with it. You don't scale it, clean it, filet it, or alter it in any way. You fry it, pop it in your mouth and eat it whole - done. So ruling a big nation is like frying a small fish means don't mess with it too much. Don't get into the insides and fool around. This theme pervades the DDJ. Approach it as one organic whole, don't try to impose your ideas on it, just eat the whole thing and it's perfect. The ghosts I think refer to the various ills we can encounter, it doesn't need to have a supernatural connotation although I'm sure it did when it was written. So the ruler doesn't interfere, and through his non-interference he doesn't facilitate or enable the problems that inevitably result from leaders trying to "make a difference." And when the ruler is benevolent, the people respect and appreciate the non-intervention. So everyone is happy.

I get it about wealth and fame not being #1. It's how I've lived my life and taught my kids to do the same. And I agree that this is the attitude necessary to achieve a very high level of personal cultivation. And once that is achieved, do you think those folks who are so highly cultivated that they forego all concerns with wealth and fame are making youtube videos showing how they can burn a hole in paper with their Qi projection? The thing that bugs me is this sort of fantasy does not encourage people to take their cultivation seriously. It's exploitation and foolishness. It's what causes many people to scoff at some of these concepts and not take them seriously. Much better to meditate or study the Classics than search the web for videos of Qi projection, that's all I'm trying to say.

Good point When I renounce something, I'm tied to it, I'm attached to it's absence. If I can see it, and my desire, for what they truly are there is no need for renunciation. That's liberation.

I agree

We're discussing Qi Gong following Tai Ji principles, not Fa Jin. One can still maintain Tai Ji and practice breathing with the arms overhead. This is achieved in many ways - raise and lower on the toes, sway side to side, rotate side to side, raise and bend the knees, and so on. I didn't mean that you would hold completely still. This is a common component of multiple Qi Gong sets. Nevertheless, if you feel the raising and lowering of the arms overhead works for you, please continue to use that. I'm not an authority in Qi Gong, just offering some basic criticism as requested.

I think you're correct here. One thing to be aware of is that all of this philosophy was added to martial arts after the fact by scholars. Not everyone will agree on this point but I'm convinced it is true. Xingyiquan was a martial art first and foremost. As scholarship became increasingly important (esp in the late 19th century) and hand to hand combat faded, it became very fashionable to examine and extol all of the wonderful philosophical and theoretical aspects of the arts. Here is an example, IMO, of simply applying basic Daoist cosmology to Xingyiquan and the same can be done for all arts. Not that it's not good stuff - I don't mean to imply that, but it's very general. Similarly, it appears that all of the 5 element theory was applied to XIngyi after the fact - not as a fundamental and formative component. Perhaps this is something we can explore in detail in the future. Once you get into the more specific songs relating to Xingyiquan (such as from the Mother Fist writings) then things will get more interesting. Maybe we should put those off until we can get something organized. I'm currently in discussion with the mods about this and I'd like to get input from Taomeow when she's got some time.

Sceptic is not my identity, nor do I identify with any such movement. Finally, I don't practice it. What I meant to communicate is that based on my prior conditioning and my current understanding, I tend not to accept or believe things very readily that are not in some way observable, credible, or consistent with my personal experience. My background is in Western science followed by about 10 years of study and training in Daoist arts. I try to have a very open mind but I try not to be gullible. I don't like to "believe" things or "disbelieve" things when I can avoid it. I prefer to know or simply not know rather than to believe. I was using sceptic more as a descriptive term of my tendency, nothing more. Thanks for calling me on that unskillful statement. I'm not advocating this position for anyone else, just stating what exists for me. This demonstration just feels like a phony to me. If someone were able to so readily burn paper with their Qi in what looks like a scientific setting, we would be seeing much broader evidence of this - peer reviewed papers, more organized demonstrations, and so on. This would make these folks rich and famous if it were true. You can talk around that but it's just the way I see it.

Hi Z - thank you for inviting me! I practice Xingyiquan but it's secondary to Taijiquan and I haven't yet read much of the Xingyi classics... I'll be happy to offer some thoughts This is basically just a brief summary of fundamental Daoist cosmology. Personally, I've come to look at this as independent of time. It's written to sound as if this is all something that has occurred in the past. My personal interpretation (and I think it's consistent with some things being understood in modern physics) is that this is a description of the ongoing process of existence that occurs in each and every instant, and in each and every one of us. Just different layers of present existence. At some level there is this shapeless, nameless, misty turbid ________ (fill in a word - emptiness, void, Wu Ji) but we are reminded that it is non-dual (to use the Hindu term), that is - there is no separation or boundaries or distinction. This is not really the same as saying one. The Hindus and later the Buddhists were careful not use the word one because that has a connotation of something fixed, definable, measurable, and concrete. The Daoists aren't afraid to use the word one because they spend plenty of time telling us not to get attached to the names, definitions, and so on. One is just another way for the Daoist to say non-dual, IMO. And so there is a continuity of Qi (Qi being a nebulous concept that sort of means stuff of the universe but it's clearly not a quantifiable stuff). We can think of it as the energy that animates the universe or the life force or perhaps the awareness (heart-mind), strings. I don't know - this is something that bears much personal meditation and study. The important thing is that it is whole and continuous. It is the source of life (but again, it is undefinable, it is just a label, so the Buddhists don't need to get their panties twisted). This is often referred to as pre-Heaven or even pre-Natal because it is rudimentary, unformed, undefined. Sort of like the embryonic cells that can give rise to anything. Notice it mentions 'no Yi' prior to Tai Ji - this is critical, IMO. I interpret this as implicating the Yi (our human mentation - mind of intent) in the genesis of existence (d-d-d-dependent o-o-o-o-origination, oops - sorry). So when the Yi comes into play there is recognition which is distinction. Recognition of boundaries. Tai Ji (Yin Yang) comes into existence (but again, don't think of it as happening in time, it always is and is not at the same time) along with living things and this is telling us very clearly that all manifestations of the Dao are inseparable. They just seem to be separate because of the nature of our mind which distinguishes Yin from Yang. So we are admonished to recognize that we are just exactly this - everything, the whole ball of wax. We are indistinguishable. And it is our option to cherish and nurture this life force in every manner we can, or we can be foolish and wasteful and squander it. This has many connotations, some very general, but also is a specific recommendation to the martial artist to conserve Jing (vital essence). That is, no sex or at least only very sparing. This is a requirement for many Nei Gong an martial Qi Gong work. Just my interpretation, I hope that helps in some way. For anyone having a serious interest in studying this stuff, YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST BEGIN PRACTICING MEDITATION NOW Otherwise, it'll just be word salad. Sometimes it'll make some sense, sometimes not. But meditation WILL give you insight. I guarantee it, no other way. It's slow going though, be patient. PS - these songs don't come from The Motherfist of Xingyiquan by Jiang Rong-Qiao, I'm not sure where they're from

We haven't even grazed the surface of Zhuang Zi - I think the intention is to get that up and running once all the Dao De Jing chapters have been addressed at least a bit. At least that's the scuttlebutt I read.

I don't buy it, not even a little.... But I'll admit I'm a skeptic.

I really resonate with Anthony Demello's definition of spirituality - spirituality means waking up. Waking up to who and what we are and what is going on in our lives - cutting through the bullshit. So shit, therefore, is a very important part of that and must be recognized in all it's myriad forms...

Thanks bud, I appreciate that.

Than you very much for sharing this. It's a nice concept. If you're open to constructive criticism, I'll offer some. Some of these observations may appear subtle or overly critical but I think they're important, provided that your intention is to observe Taiji principles. 1. Starting hands - your step out with the left foot was heavy - no distinguishing full from empty. Raising the hands above the shoulder level tenses the shoulder muscles and restricts the breath. If you want to do breathing practice with the arms above the shoulders, I would suggest that you raise them and keep them there for several cycles rather than raising and lowering repeatedly. This allows the arm to settle in and the shoulder girdle to relax. 2. Lateral hands - too much inconsistency and disconnection between upper and lower. The waist and kua were not leading the upper body. The shifting of the weight relative to movement of the arms was not consistent and smooth. 3. Diagonal hands - again, I'd like to see a bit more waist and allow the hands and arms to follow more passively. Also, I wouldn't straighten the legs quite so much on rising. Keeping a bit more of a bend creates more fluidity and strength. In general, in your side to side shifting of the weight you are pushing off with the full leg before bending the empty knee. This causes your dan tian to rise and fall. This violates an important Taijiquan principle and cause a loss of strength and rooting. There can be up and down, rising and sinking, if desired but it is important to bend the empty knee before pushing from the full. It allows you to stay rooted and prevents double weighting and improves song and flow. Overall, I'd like to see the arms more passive, the shoulders more song, and the waist and kua much more active. Finally, your stepping needs to be more mindful with proper distinction of full and empty. I hope you take my criticism in the constructive spirit with which it is offered.

Thanks M, yeah it's not so much about agreeing with each other or causing someone else to shift their point of view. It's more about an exchange or sharing of perspectives that may just help both of us to broaden our horizons... Your point of view has certainly helped me to more deeply examine my own, thanks for that!