doc benway

Honest and Integrity are two of the core values that I attempt to reflect in word and action. It is very tricky to do consistently. We have so many predetermined patterns of behavior and responses and we have created so many images about and around ourselves that it is virtually a lifetime commitment to dismantle all of that. In my mind it's worth the candle. And I appreciate the honesty of others, whether they are in accordance with my views or not. My best friend (a TaoBum who's not at all active) is militantly honest, sometimes to his own detriment. He is a mirror held in front of my face reflecting any masks or games that find their way in. Priceless!

Thanks for the reply, I have some different perspectives from you on a lot of this stuff and that is the variety that is the spice of life! In particular, it's important to recognize that there is no such thing as solid matter or substance. This has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by physicists. This is analogous to what some say amounts to the fact that nothing exists. What appears as matter is nothing other than energy (or perhaps strings) but there is absolutely nothing solid in the universe. It feels solid and looks solid because that is our brain's interpretation. If it were not for cerebral pattern recognition, all that would be out there is incomprehensible patterns of energy of a variety of wavelengths and frequencies. In fact, there is also another entire universe of experience that humans have no comprehension of whatsoever because our sensory apparatus is not tuned to notice it - things like ultrasonic sound, light on either end of the visible spectrum, and things that we have no idea how to even measure. So you are welcome to feel secure in the knowledge of the objective universe but it is more slippery than you think. Finally, who/what exactly are you that is born and dies? Are the cells that currently make up the body you feel is you the same cells you were born with? Did the elements that make up the proteins that comprise "you" begin when you were born and end when you die? You are a whirlpool, a current in the ocean, that exists at the time and space that "you" currently inhabit. And you've been blessed with a mechanism that creates this "I" experience. This thought that separates itself from all the others and claims ownership, claims control. But it is nothing more than a thought with a specific and unique marker, like memories or dreams have a certain marker that makes them feel different than "regular" thoughts. The only difference is this "I" thought has the "I" marker so it feels different. But if you look at it closely for long enough it evaporates and this may open a whole different perspective. If that happens, the universe doesn't disappear or change in any way but "I" relate to it and experience it and understand it differently. And it's just as likely to be just a pigment in my imagination! PS I didn't mean to comment on your posts being materialistic, just this one... PSS I think this is a critical part of looking at Daoism. After all what are they telling us but to see through our "objective" reality and become one with it... completely merged.... completely subjective....

So Marbles took the opportunity of the Taoist thread to post his materialistic ideas where the Buddhists can't find him!?!?! JK, JK In fact, we can also look at the foundation of Daoist cosmology - Wu Ji, which gives rise to (one can also say resides within or is another aspect of or lies behind...) Tai Ji, and so forth. So to me, this is similar to the Buddhist concept of emptiness and Tai Ji is analogous in many ways to dependent origination. Sorry to bring the B-word into this but I think it offers a useful illustrative example to an alternative position to yours. The other aspect of subjectivism that I have come to appreciate comes from examining what experience is. Everything I experience occurs in my brain from a neurophysiological point of view. Sight occurs in the visual cortex, hearing in the auditory cortex, etc... What you are seeing is not something outside of you, you are seeing an electrical pattern in the neurons inside your skull. Same with every sense. I'm not saying there is nothing out there, just that no human being alive can every really know whether there is or not. Because everything you (and everyone else) experience occurs inside your head. The other piece of the puzzle boils down to "Who Am I?" Am I a subject and everything that happens to reside outside of my bag of skin is object? I contend that this is purely an illusion created by our sensory apparatus, particularly sight and touch. I, in fact, don't end at my skin. I am the whole works, come self aware by virtue of the multitude of sentient creatures that comprise me. So at this level there is no me and you, no subject and object, there just is this. So this is utterly and totally subjective because it is non-dual. But at a relative level, your Ying to my Ying, we can certainly say there is objectivity. 2+2= 4 as long as we all agree to accept certain ground rules. If those rules are flexible, it no longer works....

Agreed - I do as well. My shifu has always said that Taijiquan contains the other two. I agree with that but the specific training methods of the other two also develop very complimentary skills. Very good point - this is the reason I gave up the hard stuff when I hit 40 and started on the internal path.

I'm pleased to see the introduction of the new Taoist Discussion forum and look forward to participating.

There is no way of ever knowing anything about the earliest anything as there is no documentation. Perhaps our best clues are to local at indigenous cultures that were relatively recently destroyed (North American)or those few that still exist relatively intact(South American, Central Asian, New Guinea, Australia).

I think that's quite accurate! Although, I seem to recall Immortal4Life showing some evidence of a prehistoric gunshot wound to the head.

Very well said. The other component is that becoming highly skilled at Taijiquan is extremely difficult and time consuming. Perhaps there are a few high level masters who could hold their own in a cage match but I've yet to meet any and none has come forward to prove themselves and claim that honor. Perhaps it is a result of the training method mellowing the need to prove themselves or the desire to fight. Perhaps Taijiquan is just not a comprehensive enough art to stand up in the cage, no other single art is. That doesn't mean that I love my art any less. It is what it is and I no longer fight competitively and would avoid a real fight whenever possible. Fighting is fighting, not a martial art. Martial art is not fighting, it is an organized and codified training method. I think it is self evident that the best fighters out there are those who cross train in the few, specific techniques that are most effective, regardless of style, school, and so on, for a given purpose. For the octagon or cage (and arguably this is closest to real fighting) would be a combination of grappling (BJJ, Qin Na), some form of throwing (Shuai Jiao, Judo), and some effective hand and foot work(boxing, kung fu, karate, Muy Thai). Some combination of these has tested effective in no holds barred, full contact matches. Nothing else has.

He contradicts himself frequently. Sometimes evolution perhaps, at other times it is simply the nature of applying language to the that which is inherently paradoxical. He was certainly far from perfect but quite insightful, knowledgable, and an excellent teacher and guide (unless, of course, you were an attractive woman and not interested in his sexual opportunism). One of the things I like to look at is how the personality and cultural biases of a guru is reflected in their apprehension and presentation of spiritual insight. Osho was decidedly opportunistic and extravagant.

Cool, thanks for that.

I prefer Osho's usage - Belief is the fervent hope that something is true in the absence of proof or reason. Faith is the confidence that when all belief is discarded, what remains is truth. (or something like that). Mathematics may be baseless in this universe but you are typing at your keyboard and I am reading what you type. That's a good thing, I guess...

Well said. There is no security. Let go of the desire for security, which is hope. Belief is security. Faith is being OK with insecurity. Faith is being OK without belief. I know we disagree on the usage of faith, and that's OK. I find it a useful concept.

It is the uninitiated and inexperienced who seek to get. And the institution of religion knows this and uses it in the beginning. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, it is the beginning of exploitation and control. As the true seekers gain wisdom, they recognize the need to let go. Patanjali tries to shortcut this as did Buddha and Lao Zi and others. This is why their methods show less clinging and exploitation. No path is demanded or even possible in a total sense. How does the false recognize the false?. Because it's not false, it's just limited. Mind and thought are always limited. Mind is the sum total of it's contents (I'm not referring to heart-mind, just human mind). So can the mind go beyond it's contents, to quote Krishnamurti? He never answered this question because he refused to be your guru. He recognized that he can't possibly be your guru, a guru can't help you beyond putting your feet on a path that eventually must be abandoned. You need to investigate this question inside and outside of yourself with all of your resources and then you will know,..... or not. There is no defined path in this though you may use any or bits of many at different points along the way. How then to adopt this on a social, whole of humanity scale? Another thing Krishnamurti focused on. Only one way - you do the work personally and reflect that in your life and relationships and others may choose to do the same. Absolutely no way to make this happen outside of yourself. Try if you choose, but you're much more likely to be successful if you start inside.

Nope, not overlooking any of that. You can use both arms and both legs and still be consistent with Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding. No problem at all. I didn't say that every part of my body is contact with every part of my opponents body at every instant. We're talking connection on multiple levels - physical, energetic, emotional, psychological. Many levels of attainment certainly. The basic mechanics of generating Fa Jin is the same. I am not at all neglecting Qi and Yi. I simply don't think it's necessary to invoke an undefinable and completely intangible quantity to explain Fa Jin. This was not meant to be a primer on how to develop skill in Fa Jin, just a brief explanation of what it is for those who may not cultivate or believe in Qi and for those who are willing to look at it without some magical mysterious element. Qi is always already there. You don't need to cultivate it for it to be present. if it were not there you would not be alive. Cultivation allows you to become more acutely and totally aware of it and what it is and how it operates but it is not in any way outside of the properties of physics that science works with. Just a different paradigm used to describe the same reality. From a common sense perspective, cultivating Qi in order to produce Fa Jin is beneficial in many ways. The practices used to cultivate Qi develop skill in muscular relaxation without total loss of structure (Song). Furthermore, the process leads to tranquility of mind and clarification and accuracy of mind intent, Yi. A deeper connection and coordination between awareness and physical form, structure, and movement develop. And a host of other benefits that can be described. If I am skillful at Song and using the Yi and I am tranquil, I will increase velocity, improve coordination, and minimize friction thus optimizing the physical parameters of the strike. I personally have a mature and consistent practice in cultivating Jing, converting to "Qi", converting to "Shen" and "Void" and much more esoteric and complicated Daoist meditation techniques that I won't discuss. I am very comfortable working with these concepts and have a reasonable grasp of them from a practical and esoteric point of view. Nevertheless, there is no reason to invoke these undefinable and unquantifiable parameters for the non-cultivator to see what's happening. I'll go so far as to say that I can (and have) teach someone how to generate pretty powerful Fa Jin without ever mentioning to them the word Qi. I talk very little about Qi in my instruction except for the small percentage of more advance students who want to get into that. It's more a distraction to most than a benefit when it comes to learning and practicing Taiji, Xingyi, or Bagua. Be careful how you interpret the Classics. They use words like Yi and Qi as a way of helping you understand how to train and what is happening but that doesn't mean that you should get too hung up on believing that it is some mysterious quantity of energy that's beyond what you experience in your daily life. It's a way of describing exactly what you already experience all the time, every moment - only we constantly filter it out of our awareness because for our mundane daily activities we don't really need to attend to it. It's similar to the fact that we don't normally have to attend to our breathing and it is not a coincidence that the character for Qi is the same as for breath. It's ok if we don't agree, I just wanted to share some of my own (possibly erroneous) insights in hopes that it will help demystify the process and encourage folks to begin or advance in their training.

Who is choosing? Who is there to activate heartmind or pituitary? Both are always already active.... and neither exist. If we want to activate something, this is about the best we can hope for! Great post hyok!

Similar principles - you stick to the opponent's sword or staff then when an opportunity arises, create an opening and attack. With the sword there has to be some separation before the cut or thrust, otherwise you'll be deflected by the opponent's guard. All that said, I've never been in a sword fight (other than kendo) and probably never will. Good point! At least the physical forces can be demonstrated with some reproducibility and predictability. But that doesn't stop us from corruption... Wow! Excellent analysis, well beyond my knowledge of physics. Thanks for that elaboration - the elastic component is very interesting but I'll have to study that to really understand it. Is it correct to say that as the elasticity becomes more firm, the constant is higher? If I'm not mistaken, the fact that the student tenses increases his elastic constant enhancing the force transfer. This would explain why you see the students either locking their elbows or pushing off to be bounced by their teacher (you see this in every video). It also explains why our Fa Jin is more effective when our opponent is tense. Conversely, it accounts for the fact that yielding neutralizes the force so dramatically. I once had a self-proclaimed "master" try to demonstrate fa jin type force on me at a casual gathering of some friends at a tournament. He sort of put me on the spot without asking my permission. I don't particularly like the guy and his approach was arrogant and disrespectful (not that my ego played any part.... ). So I just softened and absorbed his Fa each time he tried to attack. He looked pretty sad... He got frustrated and asked why I was being so "difficult" - I just laughed and he gave up.

Exactly - there is falsehood in all of us so there is falsehood in all our myths and stories. Nevertheless, there is truth in us and each of those traditions tries to point to that truth in its own idiosyncratic language that arises from our cultural and sociological paradigms. Like Tolle implies, with the proper intention will will recognize and let go of the falsehood and approach truth. But there is no path to truth, all paths are transient and must be abandoned before we can approach truth.

Beware of taking such descriptions too literally. Trying to understand meditation landmarks and experiences through the descriptions of another is worse than worthless. The only way for there to be benefit is to practice a technique and share your own experience with a guide who has been there. You will then be given progressively more demanding exercises to practice. Having an expectation or goal is more of a distraction than a help.

+1 - same offer stands if you're ever in Baltimore. I'm a born skeptic and cynic and my teacher and his son are the real deal (as are some of our senior students and instructors)

Absolutely - read or listen to Demello (a Jesuit). A very brief Christian example - "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." This means that one must let go of all attachments to know God. Speak to experienced Kabbalists or Sufis. I used to think that these traditions were ineffective and misguided. Demello showed me otherwise as have my interactions with a few wise practitioners of the Jewish and Muslim mystical traditions. It's all a matter of interpretation.

My meaning was the following - if a person embarks on a genuine and sincere journey of self-discovery, I believe that the vehicle matters less than the inention. With the proper intention and diligence, all paths lead to the same place. There is no other way because there is no other place to be. You are correct that not everyone agrees with that view (perhaps yourself included) and I'm fine with that. I tend to agree with you entirely regarding the limited benefits and negative consequences of the Abrahamic religious traditions. I used to be fairly intense, bordering on militant, about it. I've had some epic debates and nearly destroyed a few relationships because of it. I've mellowed quite a bit in the past few years as I've come to feel that I do not have the authority to tell people that their beliefs are wrong. And even if I do so, it is rarely effective. Rather, I find it more rewarding and more effective (though less immediately or obviously so) to express my values and convictions through the example of my own behavior and choices. I can only change myself - not another. On the other hand, there are many people who find solace and direction in religious observance and affiliation who do not participate in, support, contribute to, or condone negative behaviors. I thoroughly understand Sam Harris' points of view regarding passive facilitation and yet, who has the authority to tell someone what to believe? You can certainly produce illustrative cases where it is completely sensible to do so (suicide attacks on innocents, explotation of those lacking autonomy) but the majority of cases are much more ambiguous (worshiping a dualistic deity, observing rituals and superstitions, contributing to faith based charity, and so on...).

I think that each of these traditions ultimately lead to the same place. Right here.

That's simply a 20th century phenomenon. Probably latter half of the 20th century, in fact. Taijiquan is a martial art. Martial arts were traditionally tested in combat. If you lost a challenge match, you were out of business, injured, or dead, but that was a long time ago. If you want to look at Taijiquan as a martial art, you cannot separate it from fighting. Fa jin alone will not win a fight. I'm quite certain of that.