doc benway

Interesting idea. Never considered that before. Almost no one easier to exploit and distract than a spiritual seeker. No greater reservoir of opportunists and phonies than in the spiritual arena. A competent "agent" could almost certainly interfere with the spiritual growth of his/her targets provided they were well trained. This is a bit of a gratuitous assertion but the Cointelpro reference is pretty real stuff. Motives: spiritually and religiously liberated people are free and much more difficult to predict and manipulate. Religion is the opiate of the people (Marx). I'm with you on the education bit. The US educational system arose during the Industrial Revolution. There was suddenly a massive influx of young people from the rural regions who needed just enough education to make them suitable to be used in the workforce in the high tech environment of the factories. They did not need enough education to question authority or think critically, but needed enough to be "productive members of society." The system has changed VERY little since. And, if anything, the average level of high school education is falling, not rising, in the richest nation on earth. Think about it. We still don't teach our children how to be happy, how to be fulfilled, the importance of challenging authority, the importance of looking for NEW solutions to old problems rather than continuing to apply old procedures that have never worked, and so on... I'll admit that I haven't considered this before VCP and I'm still not sure I believe this forum would be enough of a target for any agency to apply significant resources to but one never knows.... Interesting topic.

I'd be happy to chat a bit about Qi. This is all a result of my own practice. My understanding of Qi is my own alone and is little influenced by study or writings or anyone's ideas but my own. My current practices include, in order of importance: Daoist meditation (崑崙仙蹤派) Tai ji Quan Qi Gong (I mainly practice Shi Ba Luo Han Gong, Gu Chan Ba Duan Jin, and Tai Ji Jian Shen Fa) Xing Yi Quan Ba Gua Zhang I've read a fair amount about Tai Ji Quan, Xing Yi Quan, Zhan Zhuang, and Qi Gong and some about Daoist meditation but I honestly find that books have not taught me much or helped me to understand. On occasion, books act to validate my empiric experience and that is valuable in and of itself. The best example of this was The Tai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo Lien Ying. I tried to read this book multiple times as my early Tai Ji Quan training progressed. I never really learned anything from it but as my skills increased through practice I gained progressive understand and recognition of what Master Kuo describes in his magnificent book. Same thing happened with the Tai Ji Classics. My Shifu has always stressed to me to not get bogged down with study and scholarship but just to practice and when it comes to this stuff he is 100% correct! Jing 精 is usually translated as semen or sexual energy but it goes beyond that and connotes reproductive potential as well as energy inherent in the entire physical body, including many if not all of the living cells and tissues. I'm not an expert on Chinese medicine but there is pre and post natal Jing and each is described as having very specific properties and is associated with different organ systems and so on. Others can describe all this much better than I can. So the Jing is a component or aspect of the living body that is described as being energetic (as is everything in existence, according to most physicists). Qi is usually written 氣 these days which is the equivalent character for air and breath. In the old Daoist texts it is often written 炁. I've seen some people brush this off as a trivial difference due to the age of the texts only but according to my Shifu there is a meaningful difference. Air (氣) contains Qi (炁) but they are not equivalent. I also think it is instructive to think of Qi (炁) as being distinct from air or breath (氣). This is because it is easy for us to feel and imagine air circulating through our lungs but this is not equivalent (though not too different) from imagining and feeling Qi circulating through our tissues. I don't like the 'holding the hands together' method of learning to feel Qi flow. This is because it is very misleading in my experience and I believe that it gives people a false idea of what Qi is and what it is not. It is the root of fantastical imagination of masters exploding Qi from their hands and other supernatural things that are the stuff of myth and legend. Perhaps it is all true and real and maybe we will each see a convincing demonstration of it one day but it is not necessary, or even helpful, to develop a supernatural image or concept of Qi when first beginning to work with it. It is the most practical and universal thing possible to the Chinese mind. It is only mystical to those who don't look at it with the correct perspective. I like to share how I first felt what I knew to be whatever it is that is described as Qi. And to me, I felt it strongest by far in the bottom of my pelvis in the region of the prostate gland. It has a sensation that is very similar to sexual sensation. If you sit quietly and pay attention to this area over time you may begin to feel as if you are sensing something stirring in that area. It may be a warmth, tingling, coolness, flowing, buzzing, whatever - you will eventually have some sensory awareness of that area. You can try it with other areas. I've been told by Livia Kohn that many women do better becoming aware of this sensation in the heart area between the breasts, I can feel it there very powerfully now but I didn't pay much attention to that area early on. So once this feeling arises, you can begin to work with it. There are areas where it is much easier to feel and areas where it can be difficult to feel. These are referred to as blockages. There is a complex web of intersecting channels mapped out by the Chinese physicians and cultivators over centuries with which you are undoubtedly familiar. I am a bit of a heretic when it comes to this stuff but I'm not yet convinced to what degree all of the channels exist "objectively" or are developed through conditioning, whether it be through Chinese medicine and acupuncture training or Daoist cultivation training. It really doesn't matter to me but it's interesting to ponder. So once you are able to feel this, begin to try and come aware of any part of the body at any time in any area inside, in the tissues themselves. Feel your left big toe, don't visualize it or think about it, be inside of it. And your right elbow, and so on. And you can imagine what you know about internal human anatomy but in my experience that can be as much of a hinderance as a help. Just feel what you feel and trust it and keep practicing. Eventually you will become more and more sensitive. If you have the benefit of a teacher, you can learn all types of fascinating and challenging internal calisthenics to develop a high level of clarity and precision in working with this. Whether or not a tingling you may feel in your hands or fingers is Qi passing between the hands through air is irrelevant. What is important for cultivation purposes is what you can feel inside the tissues of your own body. That is where the true investigation and exploration begins and ends (I think, I'm not done yet!). So next we come to the Microcosmic Circulation. There are many different ideas and traditions about what it is and what it is not. There are different methods for practicing it. The "points" that I use in practicing the orbit come from my Shifu and are different from anything I've ever seen in print, though not dramatically so, but the differences are substantial. Based on my understanding of what Jing and Qi is, I do not believe that what you "feel circulating" is Jing. Jing is an energetic component inherent in human tissue and, as far as I know, it does not circulate through the meridians and channels like Qi is described to do. I will gladly stand corrected if I am wrong - like I said, I"m no expert in Chinese medicine. Now here is more of my heresy. I don't really subscribe to the notion that Qi is some distinct quantity of something (energetic or otherwise) that circulates in the body. I think it is a very useful paradigm and it works within the framework of Chinese medicine but that is simply not a helpful way for me to approach cultivation. It may be exactly what is happening, or not, but for me that is not what it feels like inside. What is happening is that my Yi (意) usually translated by my Shifu as "mind of intent" is moving through or scanning my tissues. The way I interpret the phenomenon is that the interaction of my focused awareness (意) with the energy of living tissue (精) is the experience of 炁 (or if you prefer, 氣). I don't think it is a coincidence that there is a similarity between what I feel as Qi and that Jing is related to sexual energy. I think this is at the heart of the conversion from Jing to Qi. Jing exists in the living tissue and as I practice moving my focused awareness through that tissue, I become progressively more precise and facile with this skill and this experience is described as circulating or guiding the Qi. So some say that the microcosmic orbit is always flowing and it takes very little effort and anyone can do it and they are correct. Anyone can feel a sensation flowing through any pattern in their body at any time and you can call it anything you like and it's relatively easy and trivial and I would ask, what is it exactly that you can do with that? What does it do for you practically speaking? And others say that the orbit is extremely difficult and takes years to master and they are also correct and, IMO, they are the ones who practice true cultivation techniques. It has nothing to do with whether something is flowing or not. It doesn't really even matter what pattern it's flowing in (once you have gained a firm grasp of the basics). What matters is how you practice refining the skill of using the Yi (意). As you develop higher and higher levels of skill in working with the Yi, the mind becomes very tranquil and this tranquility is enormously powerful in many ways. And with cultivation most would say that one's Qi becomes very strong - I just don't quite see it this way (heresy!). The same Jing and Qi are there although I do feel that cultivation leads to improved health and well being and this certainly would equate to more powerful Jing and perhaps Qi (whatever that means), but to me the "quantity" or "health" of Jing and Qi is something gratuitous, something speculative that I have trouble relating to (probably because of my medical / scientific background). My Qi is continuous with that of the universe around me. My bag of skin can neither contain nor exclude it. Chinese medicine folks will disagree and talk about Qi deficiencies and excesses and that's all fine. I look at it more as relative deficiencies and excesses, not absolutes. Anyway, for me what is stronger is my power and skill in using the Yi and being more sensitive and aware and precise, not to mention the benefits associated with the mental tranquility which I believe parallels what Buddhists define as Buddha-mind or heart-mind, and what Daoists refer to as becoming one with Dao, and what Hindus refer to as the Self and so on. This is what is extremely practical and useful in many things and the Chinese are nothing if not practical. So I'm sorry to ramble on for so long but these are my views from working with this stuff and I hope it's useful to someone in some way. I'm certainly looking forward to hearing the views of other cultivators and Chinese medicine folks who have a more traditional understanding and more experience in working with this stuff.

I echo your sentiments strongly on this Dwai. As one who has a foot each in the scientific and spiritual camps, I think it's critical to work within each framework based on their unique paradigms. It is very instructive to me to see overlap and parallels and try to understand how the paradigms interact but bringing the rules, methods, and language of the spiritual into the scientific laboratory is no more (or less) effective than bringing scientific measurement into the spiritual realm (show me the Qi). This is one of the major issues with the ID folks and other religious types who can't seem to get comfortable leaving the two separate (same criticism is valid towards the scientists how pontificate of the presence or absence of God and other spiritual matters). One does not need to validate the other. I doubt they ever will entirely. Although as science has matured it first deviated dramatically from the realm of the spiritual and is now advancing slowly back in that direction. I think it is human nature to want to understand what is not yet (perhaps can not be) understood, so this will be an ongoing phenomenon. And it's interesting that you use that illustration of thought being faster than light, it is the same analogy my Shifu uses.

Hi tulku, I'm interested in your excitement about pineal gland work. Are you comfortable talking about your methods in more detail? Can you share some of what makes you see this as so vital? Thanks

OK - let's examine honesty at it's most fundamental level with respect to what is actually going on here at this juncture. You are writing this first post in a thread about honesty on this forum. The tone of your post seems to be pointing at the entire board and challenging - are you honest? It even has the feel of - are you honest enough to engage with me? And yet you never quite offer why you are asking the question or where it may lead, it is very open ended. You are holding yourself aloof, observing, judging, measuring others against yourself. At least, that is what I feel from the words. So let's start with this. What is the true, fundamental reason for this post? Why are you interested in the honesty of others? How will you know when they are being honest? How will you measure and judge them? Why do you measure and judge others? Have you already completed the delicate and difficult process with respect to everything about yourself? Is it possible to measure others if you have completed that process???? Let's take it a step back even. Why are you posting on a public, anonymous forum a question about honesty? Particularly when there is no hope for confirmation of anything? When there can be no real human communication? When there are no expressions or gestures to read, no subtlety of communication whatsoever, no relationshp? Just analysis and conjecture based on carefully (or not so carefully) chosen words. Why ever post on any anonymous forum in such a fashion? What is my motivation and relationship to the words I am writing? How do they make me feel? What does honesty really mean when it comes to sharing words on a public anonymous forum? Do you/I write with care or impulsively? Why? Do I care how others respond? WHY??? You asked people to reply ONLY if they are in accordance with your intention and yet you never even specified your intention beyond the word honesty .... WHY?????? After you post something on this anonymous board, do you then look to see how others responded? Yes? Why? If they agree or compliment does that make you feel good? Is that why we do what we do here? Look very carefully at this if you haven't already. If they disagree or insult or challenge or question, how does that make you feel? Do you choose to give strangers that power over you? Do you think that you have that power over them? Why defend your particular opinion against criticism? Is that important to you? With strangers who you may never meet? Who may be 15 years old? Are there people in your life who perhaps would prefer that you spend less time in such endeavors and engage with them in real relationship? Do you have such feelings? Do you understand how to be in a relationship? Because even on this public, anonymous forum, what we are doing is relationship. Yet we choose this particular vehicle for very specific reasons. These reasons are critical to identify, acknowledge, and examine if we are to even begin to have a sense of who we are, what we value, what we are comfortable with, and what we are uncomfortable with, and how we choose to act in order to find security. And how we treat others with our words reflects much about who they are. This is honesty in my life. So if we are to talk about honesty, I would ask that we start with wondering why we are starting such a topic in such a forum, or any topic in any forum, and be very clear, very clear with ourselves and each other. Do you / we have the courage to do that? Is it valuable enough to sit in front of a computer screen for hours, indulging our intellect and ego while our lives pass us by, tick, tick, tick? Honestly

Honest and Integrity are two of the core values that I attempt to reflect in word and action. It is very tricky to do consistently. We have so many predetermined patterns of behavior and responses and we have created so many images about and around ourselves that it is virtually a lifetime commitment to dismantle all of that. In my mind it's worth the candle. And I appreciate the honesty of others, whether they are in accordance with my views or not. My best friend (a TaoBum who's not at all active) is militantly honest, sometimes to his own detriment. He is a mirror held in front of my face reflecting any masks or games that find their way in. Priceless!

Thanks for the reply, I have some different perspectives from you on a lot of this stuff and that is the variety that is the spice of life! In particular, it's important to recognize that there is no such thing as solid matter or substance. This has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by physicists. This is analogous to what some say amounts to the fact that nothing exists. What appears as matter is nothing other than energy (or perhaps strings) but there is absolutely nothing solid in the universe. It feels solid and looks solid because that is our brain's interpretation. If it were not for cerebral pattern recognition, all that would be out there is incomprehensible patterns of energy of a variety of wavelengths and frequencies. In fact, there is also another entire universe of experience that humans have no comprehension of whatsoever because our sensory apparatus is not tuned to notice it - things like ultrasonic sound, light on either end of the visible spectrum, and things that we have no idea how to even measure. So you are welcome to feel secure in the knowledge of the objective universe but it is more slippery than you think. Finally, who/what exactly are you that is born and dies? Are the cells that currently make up the body you feel is you the same cells you were born with? Did the elements that make up the proteins that comprise "you" begin when you were born and end when you die? You are a whirlpool, a current in the ocean, that exists at the time and space that "you" currently inhabit. And you've been blessed with a mechanism that creates this "I" experience. This thought that separates itself from all the others and claims ownership, claims control. But it is nothing more than a thought with a specific and unique marker, like memories or dreams have a certain marker that makes them feel different than "regular" thoughts. The only difference is this "I" thought has the "I" marker so it feels different. But if you look at it closely for long enough it evaporates and this may open a whole different perspective. If that happens, the universe doesn't disappear or change in any way but "I" relate to it and experience it and understand it differently. And it's just as likely to be just a pigment in my imagination! PS I didn't mean to comment on your posts being materialistic, just this one... PSS I think this is a critical part of looking at Daoism. After all what are they telling us but to see through our "objective" reality and become one with it... completely merged.... completely subjective....

So Marbles took the opportunity of the Taoist thread to post his materialistic ideas where the Buddhists can't find him!?!?! JK, JK In fact, we can also look at the foundation of Daoist cosmology - Wu Ji, which gives rise to (one can also say resides within or is another aspect of or lies behind...) Tai Ji, and so forth. So to me, this is similar to the Buddhist concept of emptiness and Tai Ji is analogous in many ways to dependent origination. Sorry to bring the B-word into this but I think it offers a useful illustrative example to an alternative position to yours. The other aspect of subjectivism that I have come to appreciate comes from examining what experience is. Everything I experience occurs in my brain from a neurophysiological point of view. Sight occurs in the visual cortex, hearing in the auditory cortex, etc... What you are seeing is not something outside of you, you are seeing an electrical pattern in the neurons inside your skull. Same with every sense. I'm not saying there is nothing out there, just that no human being alive can every really know whether there is or not. Because everything you (and everyone else) experience occurs inside your head. The other piece of the puzzle boils down to "Who Am I?" Am I a subject and everything that happens to reside outside of my bag of skin is object? I contend that this is purely an illusion created by our sensory apparatus, particularly sight and touch. I, in fact, don't end at my skin. I am the whole works, come self aware by virtue of the multitude of sentient creatures that comprise me. So at this level there is no me and you, no subject and object, there just is this. So this is utterly and totally subjective because it is non-dual. But at a relative level, your Ying to my Ying, we can certainly say there is objectivity. 2+2= 4 as long as we all agree to accept certain ground rules. If those rules are flexible, it no longer works....

Agreed - I do as well. My shifu has always said that Taijiquan contains the other two. I agree with that but the specific training methods of the other two also develop very complimentary skills. Very good point - this is the reason I gave up the hard stuff when I hit 40 and started on the internal path.

I'm pleased to see the introduction of the new Taoist Discussion forum and look forward to participating.

There is no way of ever knowing anything about the earliest anything as there is no documentation. Perhaps our best clues are to local at indigenous cultures that were relatively recently destroyed (North American)or those few that still exist relatively intact(South American, Central Asian, New Guinea, Australia).

I think that's quite accurate! Although, I seem to recall Immortal4Life showing some evidence of a prehistoric gunshot wound to the head.

Very well said. The other component is that becoming highly skilled at Taijiquan is extremely difficult and time consuming. Perhaps there are a few high level masters who could hold their own in a cage match but I've yet to meet any and none has come forward to prove themselves and claim that honor. Perhaps it is a result of the training method mellowing the need to prove themselves or the desire to fight. Perhaps Taijiquan is just not a comprehensive enough art to stand up in the cage, no other single art is. That doesn't mean that I love my art any less. It is what it is and I no longer fight competitively and would avoid a real fight whenever possible. Fighting is fighting, not a martial art. Martial art is not fighting, it is an organized and codified training method. I think it is self evident that the best fighters out there are those who cross train in the few, specific techniques that are most effective, regardless of style, school, and so on, for a given purpose. For the octagon or cage (and arguably this is closest to real fighting) would be a combination of grappling (BJJ, Qin Na), some form of throwing (Shuai Jiao, Judo), and some effective hand and foot work(boxing, kung fu, karate, Muy Thai). Some combination of these has tested effective in no holds barred, full contact matches. Nothing else has.

He contradicts himself frequently. Sometimes evolution perhaps, at other times it is simply the nature of applying language to the that which is inherently paradoxical. He was certainly far from perfect but quite insightful, knowledgable, and an excellent teacher and guide (unless, of course, you were an attractive woman and not interested in his sexual opportunism). One of the things I like to look at is how the personality and cultural biases of a guru is reflected in their apprehension and presentation of spiritual insight. Osho was decidedly opportunistic and extravagant.

Cool, thanks for that.

I prefer Osho's usage - Belief is the fervent hope that something is true in the absence of proof or reason. Faith is the confidence that when all belief is discarded, what remains is truth. (or something like that). Mathematics may be baseless in this universe but you are typing at your keyboard and I am reading what you type. That's a good thing, I guess...

Well said. There is no security. Let go of the desire for security, which is hope. Belief is security. Faith is being OK with insecurity. Faith is being OK without belief. I know we disagree on the usage of faith, and that's OK. I find it a useful concept.

It is the uninitiated and inexperienced who seek to get. And the institution of religion knows this and uses it in the beginning. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, it is the beginning of exploitation and control. As the true seekers gain wisdom, they recognize the need to let go. Patanjali tries to shortcut this as did Buddha and Lao Zi and others. This is why their methods show less clinging and exploitation. No path is demanded or even possible in a total sense. How does the false recognize the false?. Because it's not false, it's just limited. Mind and thought are always limited. Mind is the sum total of it's contents (I'm not referring to heart-mind, just human mind). So can the mind go beyond it's contents, to quote Krishnamurti? He never answered this question because he refused to be your guru. He recognized that he can't possibly be your guru, a guru can't help you beyond putting your feet on a path that eventually must be abandoned. You need to investigate this question inside and outside of yourself with all of your resources and then you will know,..... or not. There is no defined path in this though you may use any or bits of many at different points along the way. How then to adopt this on a social, whole of humanity scale? Another thing Krishnamurti focused on. Only one way - you do the work personally and reflect that in your life and relationships and others may choose to do the same. Absolutely no way to make this happen outside of yourself. Try if you choose, but you're much more likely to be successful if you start inside.

Nope, not overlooking any of that. You can use both arms and both legs and still be consistent with Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding. No problem at all. I didn't say that every part of my body is contact with every part of my opponents body at every instant. We're talking connection on multiple levels - physical, energetic, emotional, psychological. Many levels of attainment certainly. The basic mechanics of generating Fa Jin is the same. I am not at all neglecting Qi and Yi. I simply don't think it's necessary to invoke an undefinable and completely intangible quantity to explain Fa Jin. This was not meant to be a primer on how to develop skill in Fa Jin, just a brief explanation of what it is for those who may not cultivate or believe in Qi and for those who are willing to look at it without some magical mysterious element. Qi is always already there. You don't need to cultivate it for it to be present. if it were not there you would not be alive. Cultivation allows you to become more acutely and totally aware of it and what it is and how it operates but it is not in any way outside of the properties of physics that science works with. Just a different paradigm used to describe the same reality. From a common sense perspective, cultivating Qi in order to produce Fa Jin is beneficial in many ways. The practices used to cultivate Qi develop skill in muscular relaxation without total loss of structure (Song). Furthermore, the process leads to tranquility of mind and clarification and accuracy of mind intent, Yi. A deeper connection and coordination between awareness and physical form, structure, and movement develop. And a host of other benefits that can be described. If I am skillful at Song and using the Yi and I am tranquil, I will increase velocity, improve coordination, and minimize friction thus optimizing the physical parameters of the strike. I personally have a mature and consistent practice in cultivating Jing, converting to "Qi", converting to "Shen" and "Void" and much more esoteric and complicated Daoist meditation techniques that I won't discuss. I am very comfortable working with these concepts and have a reasonable grasp of them from a practical and esoteric point of view. Nevertheless, there is no reason to invoke these undefinable and unquantifiable parameters for the non-cultivator to see what's happening. I'll go so far as to say that I can (and have) teach someone how to generate pretty powerful Fa Jin without ever mentioning to them the word Qi. I talk very little about Qi in my instruction except for the small percentage of more advance students who want to get into that. It's more a distraction to most than a benefit when it comes to learning and practicing Taiji, Xingyi, or Bagua. Be careful how you interpret the Classics. They use words like Yi and Qi as a way of helping you understand how to train and what is happening but that doesn't mean that you should get too hung up on believing that it is some mysterious quantity of energy that's beyond what you experience in your daily life. It's a way of describing exactly what you already experience all the time, every moment - only we constantly filter it out of our awareness because for our mundane daily activities we don't really need to attend to it. It's similar to the fact that we don't normally have to attend to our breathing and it is not a coincidence that the character for Qi is the same as for breath. It's ok if we don't agree, I just wanted to share some of my own (possibly erroneous) insights in hopes that it will help demystify the process and encourage folks to begin or advance in their training.

Who is choosing? Who is there to activate heartmind or pituitary? Both are always already active.... and neither exist. If we want to activate something, this is about the best we can hope for! Great post hyok!

Similar principles - you stick to the opponent's sword or staff then when an opportunity arises, create an opening and attack. With the sword there has to be some separation before the cut or thrust, otherwise you'll be deflected by the opponent's guard. All that said, I've never been in a sword fight (other than kendo) and probably never will. Good point! At least the physical forces can be demonstrated with some reproducibility and predictability. But that doesn't stop us from corruption... Wow! Excellent analysis, well beyond my knowledge of physics. Thanks for that elaboration - the elastic component is very interesting but I'll have to study that to really understand it. Is it correct to say that as the elasticity becomes more firm, the constant is higher? If I'm not mistaken, the fact that the student tenses increases his elastic constant enhancing the force transfer. This would explain why you see the students either locking their elbows or pushing off to be bounced by their teacher (you see this in every video). It also explains why our Fa Jin is more effective when our opponent is tense. Conversely, it accounts for the fact that yielding neutralizes the force so dramatically. I once had a self-proclaimed "master" try to demonstrate fa jin type force on me at a casual gathering of some friends at a tournament. He sort of put me on the spot without asking my permission. I don't particularly like the guy and his approach was arrogant and disrespectful (not that my ego played any part.... ). So I just softened and absorbed his Fa each time he tried to attack. He looked pretty sad... He got frustrated and asked why I was being so "difficult" - I just laughed and he gave up.

Exactly - there is falsehood in all of us so there is falsehood in all our myths and stories. Nevertheless, there is truth in us and each of those traditions tries to point to that truth in its own idiosyncratic language that arises from our cultural and sociological paradigms. Like Tolle implies, with the proper intention will will recognize and let go of the falsehood and approach truth. But there is no path to truth, all paths are transient and must be abandoned before we can approach truth.