doc benway

Thanks Jack

Thank you Will do (I wish there was a popcorn eating smiley)

I doubt that any Buddhists from Cambodian, Tibet, India, Myanmar, Thailand, China, or Japan would be offended to hear that what they practice is religion. Although I am basing this on very few individuals I know personally and what I've seen in books and other media so I could be mistaken. I think it's reasonably apparent that Buddhism serves the purpose in the lives of Buddhists that Christianity serves for Christians, Islam for Muslims, and Judaism for Jews, Daoism for Daoists, etc... To say otherwise is a bit disingenuous. Buddhism informs the moral and ethical lives of Buddhists, provides cultural identity, rituals, traditions, and history, and addresses spiritual issues related to the nature of human existence. What more does it need to do to fit the bill? Perhaps some folks don't like the negative connotations associated with the R word. Also, as I alluded to above, many folks who practice Buddhism in the West really don't relate to many of the cultural aspects and I think that's an important part of religion. Ultimately, Buddhism is what it is in all of its myriad manifestations. Whether we say it can be associated with the letters "r-e-l-i-g-i-o-n" or not isn't terribly important. Sometimes we get a little hung up on labels and definitions, I think. Myself included.

No - I've never really meditated on the elements, other than what I described above. Although, I've practiced Xingyiquan for several years and have worked extensively on the five element fists - standing meditations as well as moving practices. So I guess that qualifies to some degree. I pretty much have one system I work with but on occasion dabble with other things just for a change of pace. If you want to elaborate, I'm always interested in new ideas. Thanks

If you're referring to the "inner work" I practice, it's not analytical in any way - it's totally about "feeling" ...sort of...

Dear Taomeow, I wonder if you'd be so kind as to continue sharing your knowledge of shen with us. Lately, I've been exploring it quite a bit but solely from an empiric perspective. I'd love to hear more about the lesser shens and their relationship to the greater shen from your point of view, and maybe ask some questions. Thanks

I get it - that's perfect. When I practice meditation, I do exactly what you are describing for a bit before starting the nei-yeh exercises. When I first started, I used to keep the eyes closed. Sight is very distracting during some of the exercises. Later, however, I began to experiment with leaving the eyes open, though relaxed, and allowing the visual input to be there at the same time as the inner work. I'll definitely try the sky gazing - I've done similar work with candle, trees, ocean, wildlife... Thanks

Juju, I will respectfully disagree with the position that Buddhism is not a religion. I think that if you ask most Buddhists throughout Asia, they would consider Buddhism more a religion than a philosophy. In the West, we are biased by our conditioning to associate religion with the Abrahamic religions' monarchical and paternalistic portrayals of God. Furthermore, many in the West have little frame of reference for understanding the cultural aspects of Buddhism and, therefore, have tended to utilize its philosophy and discard cultural aspects. Interestingly, some would say that Buddhism, to a large extent, was a vehicle to remove much of the cultural baggage from Hinduism to allow it to be more approachable for exportation, notwithstanding the profound metaphysical differences. Buddhism views spirituality in a different manner from Western religious traditions (as does Daoism for that matter) but that does not mean that it is not a religion. I'm not a huge fan of the Wikipedia, but I do think this paragraph from it's definition of religion is a reasonable one and supports my position. "Religion is a cultural system that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values.[Clifford Geertz - Religion as a Cultural System 1973] Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature."

Sorry to bum you out! You're way back on memory lane! Here's one of my all time favorites from Inti Illimani - it's also a little sad but in more of a wabi sabi sort of way. The lyrics go something like: Take pity on my complaining Take pity on my complaining If you have ever loved me And show me how to be happy Because unhappy, was I born Here's another beautiful song performed by Inti Illimani The lyrics are in Quechua, it's a traditional song from a town in Chile called Cariquima

Me too...

Are you doing anything other than what you describe with your awareness/intent?

I'd very much like to hear about your sky gazing practice. I may be heading out to Sedona soon for a short time...

Amen - though the proper frame of mind is needed to reap the benefits. That can be hard to come by. Perhaps that's something you gained from some of your teachers? Whether by positive or negative example...

Very nice post Seth. I have a few questions/remarks. "4. The 'supreme' state or 'God' state, has an [seemingly] Infinite organising 'Intelligence' but is still part and parcel of all other states." What is the organizing intelligence? It sounds very close to me to the concept of Atman. I believe what you're referring to is specifically what Buddha was decrying. Not because he intended to state emphatically that it was not reality, but that it was a concept that one could cling to. I'm not disagreeing with you in any way (your words are pretty close to my personal experience), just teasing out detail. "8. We are on the edge of a 'Golden Age' of Philosophy. For the first time ever, all systems of thought are available to us, as well as neurobiology, sociology, science, psychology... What emerges will surpass all previous revelations and understandings of the universe. And It will surpass all previous mystical methodology's, including the out dated Guru Model. " Your ideas overall resonate with me a great deal. I do challenge this statement, however. I think that this feeling occurs in many ages. My real concern is this. Where is evidence of psychological maturity in the world? Of spiritual growth? Humanity has faced the exact same problems since time immemorial - hunger, violence, racism, greed, war. Show me any evidence that this is changing. All I see is more polarization, more tribalism, more conflict. I do believe that this maturity can occur and I believe that it can only occur at the individual level. Governments, religions, and their leaders can do nothing. They've done nothing in 40,000 years or so. It can only happen for each of us as individuals when we are ready. So then, how to take this into the large scale and make meaningful change such as you allude to? 9. To bring about this 'Golden Age' will require the greatest Philosophical Courage and honesty, and Epic debates between people from multiple fields of research. So much Philosophical and religious dross will have to be sheared away. I personally believe Open Dialogue will be the golden heart of the new movement. I share your optimism in the value of dialogue. One of the masters of this was Jiddu Krishnamurti. His dialogues with many masters, including David Bohm, are fascinating. The Dalai Lama has continued this by his openness to interacting with the scientific world, physicists in particular. But where has it gotten us? Unfortunately, I don't see much movement at the macro level. Nevertheless, I do see and feel a great deal of movement at the individual level (me) and that is all I can ask.

I recently watched a video by Alan Moore on magic via a TaoBums link. It led me to read his novel, Voice of the Fire. Here is a brief excerpt I like from the final chapter which puts me in mind of some discussion in another thread about history. Don't know if this will stimulate much thought or discussion but it certainly made me think. "History, unendingly revised and reinterpreted, is seen upon examination as merely a different class of fiction; becomes hazardous if viewed as having any innate truth beyond this. Still, it is a fiction that we must inhabit. Lacking any territory that is not subjective, we can only live upon the map. All that remains in question is whose map we choose, whether we live within the world's insistent texts or else replace them with a stronger language of our own."

It's an interesting dynamic. The irony is that these long arguments about Buddhism seem to indicate an attachment to our stances on a discipline that is all about letting them go. Are we digging in our heels because it is important to us to be correct? Are we trying to convince the other person of our view? Are we trying to convince ourselves? I wonder how much we look at our own behavior in these debates and try to learn from it.

Poetry is certainly in the mind of the reader - I'd agree that you should try and look at excerpts from multiple translations then buy the one that sings to you.

Good point and a corollary is that some of it is "what hasn't worked thus far." I think a lot of the trouble comes from behvioral and thoughts patterns that are unhealthy or unproductive and just rote conditioning. The process of waking up and letting go helps us to see what works and what doesn't and fine tune the system. And it's an ongoing process, I think.

Good luck to you noahfor!

Wow - I really liked that cat. Thank you.

I would echo stan's words and add a few. It is relatively easy to abide without the pressures of the world weighing on your shoulders. It is a true test of the method and your mettle to bring your peace and compassion to the others in your life. Be a resource for them. By that I mean a source of love and light, support and humor, I don't mean to proselytize. You have re-entered the world for a reason. You are ready to take your insights and experience to the next level. See how it can truly transform your life, not only when you are hiding in a cave, but when you are immersed in humanity. And that can only be done in the world. Good luck!

What a great opportunity! I wish I'd been with you guys! The last few neigong exercises in my cultivation program have involved working with the navel. Pretty deep stuff. There is the connection to heaven, the connection to earth, and the connection to humanity = that is through the navel I think. Great thing to work with. Dammit! You, Blasto, Otis, and Manitou - undoubtedly four of my favorite Bums! What a time that must have been.

What you feel and see and hear are real. The metaphysical mumbo-jumbo in your head and on this forum is bullshit. It's just words. Thoughts are not reality, just symbols of communication bouncing around in our heads. Words used by people with too much free time and not enough to do. And I'm guilty like everyone else. The idea that life involves suffering is certainly not a lie but that does NOT mean that all of life and all experience is always suffering or false. Quite to the contrary. Life is part pleasure and part pain. That is Yin and Yang. If you didn't ever experience pain, pleasure would be meaningless. You would have no frame of reference. Both are necessary, they define each other. That is called mutual arising and is a core principle of Daoist philosophy. Life is not all suffering but there is some. The Buddhist concepts you are struggling with are not a description of reality, just a prescription to help people that are suffering. Attachment is when you tell yourself that your happiness depends on having something you want or avoiding something unpleasant. Buddhism suggests that this is the source of most suffering. In reality, your happiness depends only on you. Emotion is something inside of us, not something that depends on the outside world. Buddhism prescribes methods and concepts that help break this cycle of attachment. You don't need those tools right now. You're not currently in a position to benefit from them. You've got the ideas twisted around in your head so that rather than easing your suffering, they are terrifying you. Unfortunately, because you stumbled upon all this suddenly, by force (intoxication), all of the necessary background work is not tempering your experience. Rather than a tool to help ease your suffering, this harsh delusion that everything is fake and worthless and so on is causing enormous pain. That in and of itself is a clue that it is a false insight. When you really grow to understand these concepts in a sober and gradual way with proper preparation, they are liberating, not suffocating. You don't need to try and understand reality right now - no one understands it anyway, it is beyond words and ideas. What you need is a good, healthy dose of the real world so you can remember what it feels like. People are real, the world is real. It is the most real thing you will ever know. It is worth the effort and it is worth the game. Hug your girlfriend, enjoy it, take her out to a movie, sing her a song, love her! That is all you get to do in life! Live and love, dance and sing. Enjoy it while you can. Of course, good times don't last forever. There are bad times too. And they are normal and natural and necessary. Good times allow us to enjoy the beauty life has to offer and bad times allow us to grow. So hopefully this obstacle you're wrestling with will be an opportunity for you. This could be a source of great personal growth if you allow it to be.

The desire for "enlightenment" (whatever that word may mean) is every bit as addictive as any other worldly desire. And is a source of enormous frustration (dukkha). What if the magic were in simply being alive? Having the opportunity to walk freely on the earth, smell the flowers and the smog, look at a beautiful sunrise or face, experience love and death. This is pure, absolute, magic. Ironically, we often never understand this until death is knocking on the door. Unfortunately, it's our nature to take the daily experience for granted, no matter what it is. We are designed to evaluate, assess risk vs benefit, and then screen anything out that isn't immediately perceived as threat or opportunity. So a man who is surrounded by beautiful women is bored of them. Delicious wine and food become dull. Buy a beautiful new car and it's just a ride in a few months. We always look for something new, something more. Something other than what we are. What we are is completely ignored, boring, even intolerable. This is insanity!!! We want to levitate, it's not enough to walk. We want to travel to other places with our minds when we can literally fly. We even modify our bodies surgically to gain the approval of strangers. What if enlightenment was simply to have an insight into this and no longer feel a need to be something else? Just be what we are? And look at things with fresh eyes - everything. Plants, animals, people, buildings. Really look and relate to the world rather than pine for something we don't have or can't be. Because whatever it is that we want, when we get it, the desire will still be there. It will just be substituted for something else. What if there is no magnificent state called enlightenment, just a fantasy perpetuated by the mind that is never satisfied? Get out and take a walk. Listen to birds. Listen to waves on a beach. Soak up some sun. Walk topless in the rain. Roll around in the grass. Enjoy intimacy with your girlfriend like it was the first time you shared it. When that is all you need, I think you just may understand enlightenment. Just a guess...

No worries at all. Be well.